Talk:Poison ivy (disambiguation)

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[edit] Requested move

Move Poison ivy to Poison ivy (disambiguation), and Poison-ivy (plant) to Poison ivy. The plant is far more better known than a cartoon character, song, film, or some person's nickname.

Poison ivy article used to be about the plant till a unilateral page move yesterday. The editor explained that a violet is a disambiguation page, too. But word violet has two widely known meanings, the plant and the colour. Poison ivy is different, it has only one primary, well known meaning.

Also, the Merriam-Webster dictionary, Wordsmyth dictionary, Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, WordNet dictionary, my English-Finnish dictionary and NCBI [1] know only spelling "poison ivy" without a hyphen. So the plant isn't a poison-ivy. –Hapsiainen 23:45, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
--Chaosfeary 00:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Support per above reasons. DreamGuy 17:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. I have never seen the hyphenated form outside Wikipedia. We should not be creating our own spelling or punctuation rules. — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:53, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. I disagree with the whole hyphenation business. WormRunner 23:28, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. All other cases of poison ivy take their name from the plant. --Apostrophe 23:34, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support for Apostrphe's reason and don't consider the hyphen either. E.g., Elephant ears aren't ears or elephants. LuiKhuntek 08:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - for the reasons cited before - MPF 10:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

[edit] Poison-ivy is the correct term and Poison-ivy the plant is NOT the only use of the two words

See Talk:Toxicodendron#Hyphenation for a previous discussion on this on which it was decided to keep the hyphenation, as per common practice and standard in all botanical works.

Poison-ivy is the correct term for the plant and differentiates it from ivy - Poison-ivy is NOT a type of ivy. It's hypenated to show clearly that it isn't a species of Hedera (Araliaceae), which is otherwise implied by the name 'ivy'. Compare e.g. Poison-oak, Douglas-fir, Osage-orange, etc. Non-botanical dictionaries are not arbiters on this subject and are pretty much irrelevant.

The plant poison-ivy is just one of many with the name, and a lot more people search for Poison Ivy, the female lead of The Cramps or Poison Ivy, the comic book/film/television character, than you might think. As per precedence with Violet I believe this should stay in it's current form... --Chaosfeary 00:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Ther is non consensus in Talk:Toxicodendron#Hyphenation discussion, you can't appeal to it. NSCB is a scientific website, and it is poison ivy there. It is also only poison ivy in USDA/NRCS Plants Database. I could find poison-ivy only from Funet species list as an alternative spelling. I don't read English scientific plant journals or such, so could you give some examples where the hyphenated form is used? I can't find any guideline on hyphenating plant names in Wikipedia.
The general dictionaries above use forms Douglas fir (the species), Osage orange (again species). I dont' know where the hyphenated spelling is used. According to the discussion in Toxicodendron not all scientific literature hyphanates the names. When I read it, I got the idea that hyphenating is the less used plant name form. –Hapsiainen 01:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, Western Poison-oak is another example very similar to Poison-ivy (plant) (also with a section explaining the hyphenation)... It is common/standard usage in a botanical context... --Chaosfeary 01:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
You can't say that A is true because A is true. The Western Poison-oak article just says that the usage is standard, but it gives no further details. Its talk page just refers to Talk:Toxicodendron#Hyphenation. You also can't say that something is standard because it is used in Wikipedia. Again, we have no guideline on this.
Funet has only poison oak, not poison-oak. But I found poison-oak from NCBI [2]. It also has Douglas-fir and Osage orange. USDA Plants database has Osage orange, Douglas-fir, poison oak. So only Douglas-fir seems to be commonly spelled with the hyphen, not the others. I looked at species, not some plant genus. I am still waiting for other examples. I think that this should be discussed in WikiProject plants. -Hapsiainen 13:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I started the discussion there. -Hapsiainen 18:07, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Move Poison ivy to Poison-ivy. It is not an ivy, and should not be classified with them. - MPF 00:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Nobody is classifying it with them by simply referring to its real name. The hyphenated version is a minor version used by a tiny minority of people. We already had this discussion and it was moved and fixed. You would have us undo what we just agreed to do. DreamGuy 09:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm pointing out that the said 'agreement' was premature, and that we should return to how it has been - MPF 10:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
You aren't pointing out, you are claiming, and your claim doesn;t make any sense. Wikipedia naming conventions clearly state that we use the most common name, and in this case that's fary and away "poison ivy" -- the fact that a tiny number of people get bent out of shape thinking that the name is misleading (newsflash, lots of names of plants and animals are misleading, that's just how they are) means that they can change the name of the plant. That's not how things work. As soon as you can point to a reference showing that a majority of dictionaries and references spell it with a hyphen, then you have an argument. Until then you have your personal preference, which doesn;t overrule how the rest of the world spells it. DreamGuy 21:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It looks like I'm coming into this late but I'll weigh in with my own two cents (US). First, there is no such thing as a "correct" common name. Common names by their very nature vary over time and over geographic regions; thus any particular plant species can have any number of different "common" names. (This is why I think all "common" names should redirect to the botanical name, rather than vice-versa.) Second, the hyphenated form is a relatively recent (and in my opinion rather tortured) linguistic invention that is making a valiant attempt at precision but has little or no support in the real world. Like it or not, "ivy" or some unhyphenated variant thereof is used as the common name of many vining plants other than members of the genus Hedera. This is precisely why we use botanical names for precision rather than common or vernacular names. MrDarwin 16:48, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Also late, but I'll agree with MrDarwin... just move it to Toxicodendron radicans if a specific title is desired. SB Johnny 17:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toxicity when ingested?

The article notes it as toxic when ingested, but many folks around here (myself included) eat the stuff in order to desensitize ourselves (works, actually). Is there a source for this claim? Should I be long dead by now? :) SB Johnny 17:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've got no clue about the subject myself (I prefer lettuce in my salads!), but The Pennsylvania Integrated Pest Management Program lists it as myth #2; IvyOff.com confirms that. This page, however, indicates that it has worked for some people. Drew 01:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Altitude

I live well above 5,000 feet (in Colorado Springs) and we have our share of poison ivy. It grows primarily near streams and other drainage ways.

[edit] curing poison ivy rash

crushing then rubbing virginia creeper leaves on poison ivy rash stops the itch almost immediately and kills the rash in a few days


[edit] Removing link to Poison Oak article

It appears that the topic "Poison Oak" now links to "Toxicodendron" and is therefore any link is an artifact worthy of removal. -APM

[edit] Latin name and leaf margins

First, is there a reason the article doesn't mention the name Rhus radicans? Has it fallen out of favor among taxonomists or something? Second, the leaves in the photo, and to an even greater extent the leaves in the drawing on the commons, seem oddly un-serrated to me. I don't think I've ever seen poison ivy like that; in fact, I'm used to identifying poison ivy by the large, asymmetrical serrations on the two side leaflets. Is there a smooth-margin variety that's more common in some other part of the world (I'm in Tennessee)? --Allen 04:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes and yes. It was moved from Rhus to Toxicodendron quite a few years ago, and there are quite a few leaf shapes (unfortunately). SB_Johnny | talk 23:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. But since we mention one old Rhus name, is it okay if I add the other as well? Also, why does Talk:Poison ivy redirect to Talk:Poison ivy (disambiguation)? Okay if I move it back to Talk:Poison ivy? --Allen 05:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
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