User:Pmanderson/Imbros

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This page is a private and civil discussion about the page Imbros and Tenedos. Interpolations may be removed without notice.

I appreciate your citation tags, but more needs to be done on the Greek population section;

• First paragraph, first line: In all likelihood, the islands were inhabited primarily by ethnic Greeks from ancient times through to around the middle of the twentieth century. .

If this is a fact, In all likelihood phrase makes it a POV by itself. This needs a source.

It's a topic sentence; a summary of the rest of the paragraph. The deduction from 1909? 1920? to the whole span could use a source. I deny, however, that In all likelihood makes this PoV; I would expect any reliable source on the matter to hedge its statements in some such matter; most of the evidence will be indirect, and there won't be much of it. Septentrionalis 14:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If we have no direct evidence, and by the way no sources, who has all the facts to the point that what he wrote is acceptable by majority of world wide accepted historians so he starts the sentence with In all likelihood.DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

This is an unreasonable standard. Find a better source, and add it. Septentrionalis 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

So, once somebody finds something on any type of media he can write it here, source it to the media he found it, and voila! it becomes encyclopedic information; we need to keep it until someone else finds a better source. Is this reasonable? DeliDumrul 19:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• First paragraph, last line: This, combined with the strong presence of the Greek Orthodox church, makes any other conclusion unlikely. .

This is the editors own interpretation of the paragraph he wrote, which makes it POV.

Rephrased to claim of fact.

I'm definitely not saying it didn't had a strong presence but how do we know this? We are not authors in WP, we are merely editors who collect information from widely accepted sources and arrange them.DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer not to read histories of the Orthodox Church in the Aegean today; especially since modern Greek is not one of my languages. This one does belong on the talk page. Septentrionalis 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea on how strong the church was. I'm just pointing out that there is no reference. DeliDumrul 19:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• The part taken from treaty should be cited.
  • Done; I don't think this article needs formal footnotes yet.

• Next paragraph after the treaty: In simpler language, the islands were to be largely autonomous and self-governing, with its own police force.

The treaty is in a comprehensible language, there is no need to rephrase the treaty.

Either the quotation or the summary would be acceptable; both are fine. If you disagree with the summary, that is a different question.

Don't you agree this is emphasizing a certain point to back the succeeding sentences which include POV?DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

No. Septentrionalis 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Same paragraph Turkish policy consistently undermined both the spirit and letter of this commitment:

This is plainly a point of view.

And all points of view should be represented; do add the Turkish official position in neutral language.

All points of view of notable entities should be represented by addressing their respective owners and with references. If this is the Greek Government's POV, then it should be referenced to the government. This excludes government individuals' personal work.DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I see no evidence that anyone involved represents the Greek Government. If you want to know their position on Tenedos, why don't you e-mail them? Septentrionalis 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. The way it is now, it's personal POV which can NOT represented in an encyclopedia. DeliDumrul 19:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Continuing: and the local Greek population was marginalized in multiple ways.

Citation?

Added

The citation you added is the author's (Jacques Leclerc) POV. The site has this claimer "AVIS : Les opinions exprimées dans ce site sont celles de l'auteur et n'engagent en rien ni le TLFQ ni l'Université Laval."

In accordance, the citation on the second paragraph of the section "Between Turkey and Greece" is also not acceptable. DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Please don't wikilawyer. The standard disclaimer, that these are his views, not those of the University, has nothing to do with this. We all have PoV's; go out and find a site that agrees with you and add it. I would appreciate an effort at neutrality, if only as an example to Hectorian and Globo. Septentrionalis 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

For God's sake, the author of the source is a guy working under the literacy department of a Quebec university. How come he becomes a source on the history of two islands in Aegean?? DeliDumrul 19:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Fourth paragraph, Large numbers of mainland Turks were settled on the two islands,

Were they settled or did they settle. In any case, needs citation.

I recall Atatürk's government as directing the movement of the population.

I don't have any sources on that, so I can't argue in any direction. But still needs a citation. DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Same paragraph, without any meaningful reparations being paid.

meaningful is a relative word, also needs citation.

• Greeks had owned 95 percent of Imbros' agricultural land prior to these expropriations, today they own almost none.

needs citation.

• Guarantees that were made to all the Greek inhabitants of Turkey in the Treaty of Lausanne were ignored, and the Turkish government implemented a policy of intimidation.

this is POV.

• resulting in grievious harm both to the Greek islanders' property and, in some cases, to the Greek islanders themselves.

needs citation. (I don't know how the word grievious fits in here)

Anglo-American legal term.

Without a source, it looks POV to me. DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• If this was the intent of the Turkish policies, they have been successful.

I believe this can not be NPOV under any circumstance. DeliDumrul 22:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

You should have seen what this replaced. This is a pure hypothetical; and a tautology. By the same token, it doesn't add much. Septentrionalis 14:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I've seen that. DeliDumrul 15:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

In general, I object to the assumption that we require official sources here on either side. This is not policy; and the official claims are almost as likely to be propaganda as other sources. Septentrionalis 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Official sources are for the POVs to be mentioned in the article. Not for the facts. DeliDumrul 19:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)