Talk:Pluricentric language
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Insert non-formatted text hereWhat about French and Spanish? While some might dispute it, I think many people (and academics) consider the French of France and that of Quebec to both be types of "standard French", and Spanish has several "standard" forms as well. --[[User:#REDIRECT Delirium 08:12, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
- Hear, hear!--Jondel 06:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Spanish
I'm not sure what standards would apply to the Latin American variations of Spanish. Let's say Rioplatense; I think it fails all features of Standard language but perhaps having a canon of literature. I think that the other dialects are in a similar situation.]] Bear in mind that there is a concerted effort by the Real Academia Española and the national academies to keep the language together; for example, last week they announced the Diccionario panhispánico de dudas.
Ejrrjs | [[User talk:Ejrrjs|What?]] 07:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Spanish as an international language is generally speaking far more homogeneous than English, French and Portuguese. The only major exception I can think of is Rioplatense Spanish which differs significantly from standard Spanish. 201.52.32.9 00:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Portuguese
Which side does African Portuguese adhere to? --Dpr 02:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
African Portuguese is currently closer to the European variety. Note however that, as Portuguese evolves in those African countries where it is still spoken by a significant minority as first language (e.g. in Angola), local varieties that are distinct from both EP and BP will eventually emerge.
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The section on Brazilian Portuguese is over-simplified and needs some improvement. Generally speaking, there are 3 main varieties of the Portuguese language currently in use in Brazil:
- Standard Brazilian Portuguese, which corresponds to the (primarily written) language of newspapers, legal/scientific documents, and literary works, and is also used in TV newscasts, formal speeches and lectures/conferences;
- The educated colloquial language, which corresponds to the everyday spoken language of the urban middle-class (most notably in major cities like São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro) and is roughly the language most often heard on Brazilian TV soap operas and talk shows;
- The popular Brazilian vernacular, which is particularly widespread in the countryside/rural areas, but is also common among low-income/uneducated sections of the population in big cities.
Generally speaking, category 1 (standard Brazilian Portuguese or BP) is roughly identical in its written form to standard European Portuguese (EP), with only minor differences in spelling, vocabulary and grammar akin to the differences between standard British and American English. When spoken, standard BP is of course pronounced quite distinctively from EP, but again, differences in pronunciation are not unlike those between British and American English. The spoken colloquial language of the urban middle-class (category 2) shows on the other hand greater deviation from the European norm, not only in pronunciation, but also in grammar (akin perhaps to the grammatical differences between e.g Rioplatense Spanish and standard Spanish). The divergence between category 2 and the European standard is still small enough though to place it well within the framework of the same Portuguese language. Finally, contrary to category 2, the popular vernacular (category 3) shows in turn significant deviation from standard grammar in a scale that, in relative terms, is comparable to the distinction between, let's say, standard British English and African American vernacular English. Even for the popular vernacular though, divergence from the standard is not quite as extreme as the distance between e.g. spoken Swiss German and written standard German, or between Dutch and Afrikaans. Therefore, strictly speaking, Brazilian Portuguese cannot be considered a diglossic language yet. In fact, as of today, the use in Brazil of category 3 speech varieties appears to be actually declining as a result of increased urbanization and higher levels of schooling. At the same time though, category 2 begins to show greater divergence from the standard. In the future, some new variety between categories 2 and 3 may emerge then as the "universal" Brazilian vernacular, but that prediction is purely speculative at this point. Meanwhile, category 1 remains firmly entrenched as the official written language. Mbruno 00:48, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
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I think the "difficulty" Brazilians allegedly have to understand European Portuguese has been greatly exaggerated in most Wikipedia articles. Most educated Brazilians can actually understand EP speakers with no significant effort. Portuguese newscasts and talk shows are especially easy to follow, as is also one-to-one live conversation. We occasionally miss though a few words when watching Portuguese soap operas or movies, but never to the point of compromising overall intelligibility. In any case, that is no different for example from Americans occasionally struggling with an Australian or Irish accent. 161.24.19.82 12:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Standard language
Hm... I was in the middle of an editing spree to improve this article when it occured to me that a "pluricentric" or polycentric language - if we adhere to the criteria given in the article "Standard language" - is actually a language that uses more than one variety in international media, in diplomacy and international politics, in teaching as a foreign language and in any formal setting intended for a wide audience. Arabic and Chinese are then the two largest languages that stress linguistic "conformity" and do not accept regional(ized) standards as equally acceptable as a neutral and interchangeable. Perhaps this also goes for French and Spanish? Is it common to teach non-speakers these languages in other forms than their prestigious and recognized standard forms? I would guess that any non-standard language course would be called something like for example "Argentine language (and culture)" and not just "Spanish". In other words, if one means that a speech or a text is in French without anmy further qualifications, it is assumed that it is the standard French, while English and Portuguese could mean any of the two (or more) standard forms. --Big Adamsky 21:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
- As a native speaker of Spanish, I've found with surprise and laughter some people that claimed to have studied Spanish AND Castillian. What a waste of money! See my comments above.
- As per Argentine Spanish, a couple of decades ago there used to teach at school just regular Sp. (tu, vosotros, you know). I'm not aware of current practices.
- However, I should acknowledge there are some movies that are translated to some "neutral" American (American as in the American continent) Spanish and also to "neutral" "peninsular" Spanish.
- I believe that the trick is: can you communicate in good faith? Does people have a common ground that enable them to interact without localism, slang, etc.? The answer for Spanish is certainly yes.
- User:Ejrrjs says What? 07:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- To Big Adamsky: Your definition of "pluricentric language" certainly applies to English and Portuguese in the sense that both American English and Brazilian Portuguese have written standards of their own that differ respectively from British English and European Portuguese and are used in diplomacy, international media, and in English-as-a-foreign-language (EFL) or Portuguese-as-a-foreign-language (PFL) classes. I don't think your criteria for "pluricentrism" would apply though to French or Spanish. Although Québec movies and TV programs are occasionally shown in France, Québec French properly lacks its own written standard and the relatively small community of 7 million or so Canadian francophones has at best a negligible influence on "international French" as taught as a foreign language outside the French-speaking world. Likewise, international Spanish has a well-defined standard that is regulated by the Madrid-based RAE and is universally used in Spanish-as-a-foreign-language instruction. In a few countries like Argentina, non-standard grammar (like e.g. the vos verb forms) is nowadays used even in school and in formal/literary writing. Nevertheless, those non-standard constructions have only limited international visibility outside the Spanish-speaking world and are not normally taught to non-native speakers. Mbruno 01:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Scandinavian Languages
What about the Scandinavian languages? Could they be considered a pluricentric language continuum, whereas Swedish, Danish, Bokmål and Nynorsk constitute four different written standards? As far as I have understood, the differences are largely comparable to the standard Serbo-Croatian languages.惑乱 分からん 21:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- The standards of BCSM (Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian-Montenegrinian... :o) ) are far, far, far closer than, AFAIK, even Bokmål and Nynorsk. They are closer than the standard German of Austria and of Germany!
- David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 0:30 CET | 2006/2/19
- Swedish itself could be considered pluricentric, because speakers in Sweden can identify Finland-Swedish based on differences in vocabulary, grammar and phonology. -- ISNorden 22:29, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
- Finland-Swedish doesn't have a particularly different written standard, though. The vocabulary and grammar differences are miniscule for "proper" Finland-Swedish. I'd say it's another dialect of Swedish. 惑乱 分からん 12:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'd consider modern Danish & Bokmål to be pluricentric. Or better yet, Danish Rigsmål & Norwegian Riksmål -- essentially identical languages spelled differently. Before 1907, they were pretty much identical. Boreanesia 06:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I've have taken the liberty to add Danish and Riksmål. Boreanesia 06:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Tagalog
I have removed Tagalog from the "others" list since it does not belong there. It is not pluricentric in that it has one written standard used in one country. Boreanesia 06:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)