User talk:Plange/Archive2

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[edit] Stephen Trigg

Just renominate it in 7 days. I only give holds if notified before decision is made. --GoOdCoNtEnT 06:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll make sure that it is given 1st priority in evaluation when it is re-nominated. Just send me a message. --GoOdCoNtEnT 08:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
You could have left a note on the GA nominations page or the page Talk page. It doesn't really matter at this point. Once GA decisions are made, they are permanent. The only choice you have is resubmitting it and sending me a note. --GoOdCoNtEnT 17:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It depends on the reviewer on whether he puts it on Hold or not. I will put some articles (that are not too horrible) on Hold in the future. --GoOdCoNtEnT 18:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question regarding Assessment

I am on another WikiProject and I was looking at WPBiography's log. I was wondering how you got the comments to show up in that log. I noticed that the comments look to be on a subpage of the talk page (such as Talk:Abraham Lincoln/Comments for Abraham Lincoln). Is that how it is done? Create a subpage on a talk page and call it Comments. Is that automatically picked up by the bot that updates the log? Thanks in advance for the info.--NMajdan•talk 20:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project banner size

You might be interested in this discussion. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 01:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Glad you let me know! I'm starting to get complaints about the bio template! Is it okay to steal? plange 01:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but you might want to wait a bit until I've had some more time to test the code; given how many pages the bio template is used on, putting anything broken in there might not be the best idea ;-)
(You might want to bounce the idea off the other bio project members as well; maybe they'll have some other ideas for improving it?) Kirill Lokshin 01:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Good iead, will do! plange 01:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
{{WPMILHIST}} has been changed now; the code seems to be working, if you want to cannibalize it. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 21:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! hmm, I've done something wrong -- it's hiding them, but it's not showing the link that says "more info"? plange 22:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Fixed it; you were missing the | to separate the parts of the #if statement. Kirill Lokshin 23:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I would pull the workgroup tags under the show/hide div as well, incidentally; otherwise, you're going to run into the same task force bloat that happened on things like Talk:World War II. Kirill Lokshin 23:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! On the other, I eventually will, but right now it's our main recruiting tool :-) plange 23:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for review of Che Guevara article

Hello Plange -- I have noticed your contributions to various articles in the Biography and Military History Projects and am wondering whether you would consider taking a look at the Che Guevara article and making some suggestions. One major concern I have is that, after the lead section had been basically stable since shortly before it was promoted to FA status several months ago, a few days ago a user came along and expanded it to a length which I think detracts from the article. I am therefore seeking an independent assessment of that section in particular, but any comments and/or suggestions you might make about the rest of the article would be greatly appreciated also. (This lead section is being discussed in Talk:Che Guevara #Awfully long lead section. ) If you are not at all interested in the topic, I would be grateful if you might mention someone else skilled in biography writing who you think might be ... Many thanks -- Polaris999 16:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I trimmed some of the unnecessary detail; it probably needs a tad more, but at least it's now down to 3 paragraphs and doesn't continue "below the fold".... Let me know if this causes objections...plange 22:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Plange. Your "compression" seems like a definite improvement to me. I agree that the section could probably do with a bit more trimming, especially in the second paragraph, and I find the use of the word "role" twice in the introductory sentence quite grating, but these are relatively minor issues which perhaps can be resolved in the future. I did not write, and was not particularly fond of, the "original" lead section, and had long hoped that at some point someone would re-do it, but the changes I was wishing for involved an increase in the quality, not the quantity, of text. -- Polaris999 02:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tense in creative-work articles

EVula's reversion of your recent tense reversion in Firefly (TV series) was correct. Creative works, especially fictions, should be described in present tense, except when specifically addressing a sequence of events that require past tense for precedents. For example, Shakespeare's Hamlet performs a soliloquy; he didn't perform it in the past, even though the setting is clearly in our past. This is called an out-of-universe perspective, and is required by Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) (WP:WAF). (See that page's "Prose examples" section for comparisons between the two styles.)

I have to apologize — when I did some style corrections to Wikipedia:WikiProject Firefly, I failed to address this issue. There was (and still is) the following passage:

  • American English spelling should be used, as these articles are about a U.S. TV show. With the exception of episode synopses and ongoing events, the past tense should be preferred in the main article text.

These two items should be split into two, as the first is simply stated and not directed tied to the second. The second one is a bit complicated and is currently written from the wrong perspective. Following WP:WAF, everything should be in present tense, as the material exists to be watched at any time. Informally, the two basic needs for past tense are (A) to sequence events within the storyline, and (B) to discuss real-world events that have taken place, like production, airings, conventions, etc. I skipped over that at the time (and am doing so now, too) because it's hard to cram a complete discussion of the English tenses needed for the relationships between events (e.g., when to use past, past imperfect, conditionals, etc.), and I haven't the time to craft an accurate but very concise (e.g., 1-3 line) statement.

Like so many other things in Wikipedia, we try to set general guidelines, hope that editors pick up the feel of the prose, and expect grammarians to duck in now and then to tweak any problems. Sorry I'm not being more helpful at the moment. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:CSD

Please state a criterion as listed at the WP:CSD exclusive list of speedy criteria. I will then delete it under that criterion. If you are wanting an admin to speedy delete out of process, please wait until another admin who is willing to do so is on duty. Alternatively, you should WP:PROD or WP:AfD according to process. Thank you! ➨ ЯEDVERS 21:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions. Unfortunately, the WP:CSD criteria are exclusive and this article does not fall under the criteria. Perhaps you would like to nominate it as a WP:PROD or a full WP:AfD? ➨ ЯEDVERS 21:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military history WikiProject coordinator election - vote phase!

The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will select seven coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of eleven candidates. Please vote here by August 26!

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot - 12:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diego Maradona

Hi. I noticed that a while back you changed Maradona's importance from Top to Mid for the Biography WikiProject at Talk:Diego Maradona. I have been assessing articles for WikiProject Argentina. This article is uncontroversially a Top-Importance article over there, because it is a Wikipedia core 1000 topic and becuase he is one of a handful of Argentines to achieve global significance and iconic national status, with an unparalleled notability in football and in sport overall. There certainly aren't many more notable sportspeople, I would contend.

Of course these two assessments can co-exist, but it seems better to have some consistency, so I guess I'm asking for some reasoning to better understand your point of view. Thanks, Martín (saying/doing) 09:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Our Mid rating means that a person was important in his field, which Maradona certainly is. High (for our project) is for people who have had influence outside of their field and in more than one country and across several generations, and only people who make our Core biographies list get Top rating. I don't think it's inconsistent at all to have different ratings across two projects. He's undoubtedly Top for your project, but for our project, when taken into consideration all the people who have ever lived, he's not. Also, we don't display our ratings on our banner unless it's Top, so no one will know it's different. plange 17:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hoaxes

WP:CSD#Non-criteria: Sometimes speedy deletion criteria are applied to articles that they do not and were not intended to apply to; also, rules that are not speedy deletion rules are often mistakenly used to justify speedy deletion. This section aims to clarify some of the frequently used "non-criteria" that are commonly cited but are not sufficient, by themselves, to justify speedy deletion. These are not rules and intended only to be commonly-understood interpretations of the criteria above...

Hoaxes: Articles that present unverifiable and probably false ideas, theories, or subjects. Occasionally these can be deleted as vandalism if the article is obviously ridiculous, but remotely plausible articles should be subjected to further scrutiny in a wider forum.

...if you'd like to overturn this non-criterion, then you are welcome to do so on Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion or on WP:VP or on WP:AN. However, because the majority of users already think that "hoax" is a criterion for speedy deletion, the only people willing to debate the matter are those who are entirely opposed to any speedy criteria existing in the first place. Until this state of affairs changes, asking admins to act out of process will sometimes succeed and sometimes fail, depending on how battered recently for acting out of process the admin in question is. I'm very battered, so at the moment I won't delete out of process. Sorry. ➨ ЯEDVERS 20:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Herbert Cleanup

Hi and thanks for the assistance with the cleanup of the Charles Herbert references/notes. I'm not an HTML expert, so most of what I've learned are from the examples I have seen here.

One note on the Classic Images links. I specifically used the generic "Past Interviews" directory page instead of the specific interview page--because they archive after a week and become dead links.

What would you think about going back to the way they were?

trezjr 22:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha, yep, just change the URL parameter in the cite web template to go to the directory page then. I did that because I had to hunt through that list to find the article, but if the URL changes, then the directory link is better...plange 22:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Check and thanks again! trezjr 22:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Workgroup

Nope, looks good. Kirill Lokshin 04:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Article improvement drive

This weeks topic is Dunga, the Brazil coach. Didn't want to mess up your collab page, but as per your request, this week happens to be a bio! Andymarczak 12:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added it! I created a section for you on that page.... plange 14:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An idea

I was wondering if you'd be able to comment on a proposal I've just started on. It's obviously quite inchoate at this point, but I'd at least like for someone to tell me whether I'm totally insane for even suggesting it ;-) Kirill Lokshin 15:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Firefly

That works on coming down the category tree FROM Fox, but not going back up. Or is the intention for categories always to go downward? That's why I felt it was not repetitive, the article itself has no other reference to the Fox category. You would have to go into the Firefly category to find it. BalthCat 21:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I know, it didn't make sense to me either. I did the same thing you did when I first got here and was corrected by Wookiepedian -- I'd check with him... plange 22:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plange

Feel free to re-add it. K made the revert while I was adding new comments, so I'd leave it up to re-add it (and decide how to readd it), rather than have me spend half an hour on it only to get reverted. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I should add, you won't alter fairness with the edit you've just made. The only comments you added in the interest of fairness were votes by people who've already voted. You might wanna sort that. Regards again, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 01:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Except that it was missing the appeal I made and then Kaldari's reasoning as to why she got added in the first place. plange 01:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
OK. Still doesn't resolve the problem of the double votes. Are you going to sort that out? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 01:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the cookie

... good thing I was hungry in the morning.

For the assessment ... if I'm not sure about giving a A, I give a B and there are plenty of B-class articles that should have been GA but have never been nominated.
Second thing, does the biography project includes gods and goddesses? I ask this because I encoutered lots of half-gods doing the Greek people but didn't tag them with the WPBio tag ... should I have done so? Ex : Menelaus, all the names in King of Athens. As for the gods themselves, take a look at List of Norse gods and let me know if they should be tagged too. Lincher 12:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey Lincher! I think caution on giving an A is good-- I don't think I've given one yet :-) I see A's as being better than GAs and are almost ready for FA nomination. On the other, sorry for the delay in response, but I saw you asked this on the Bio Assessment page too so I answered there :-) plange 03:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dean Smith

Thanks for your help on the Dean Smith article. I'm still trying to figure out the correct ways to cite stuff, and I'll try to do the rest of the citations in the style you used. Remember 13:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Help with recruitment

Meh. It's not a bad message, but I don't really think you'll gain anything even if they accept. I would go with a stronger—if perhaps less likely to be accepted—variation:

Might you be interested in organizing it as a Musicians work group instead? It really wouldn't be all that different than what you have now; you'd just move your current page to a sub-page of the Biography project, and we would add a line to our project tag that has a graphic for your group and says something like "this article is supported by the Musicians work group."? That way, you could make use of all the infrastructure (assessment, review processes, etc.) that we've already set up. What do you think?

Kirill Lokshin 13:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the Welcome

Thanks for the welcome to the Biography Wikiproject! --Lini 00:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Herbert

Hi Plange...can you be specific as to what passage or passages your bothered by with reference to the Charles Herbert piece? I know you read the interview that forms the basis of what is mentioned--direct quotes mentioning past drug usage. How can I satisy your concerns--another source, changing wording, etc. Thanks, so much! trezjr 03:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I said anything bothered me about it. Just suggested you work on lead and find some other sources besides that one interview (just to expand your references, not because anything bothered me). I see you've been working hard on it and I've changed the assessment to reflect this. I think you're ready to nominate it for GA! plange 03:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Didn't mean to say you--I thought maybe you tagged it, but really don't know. Thanks for the help--and the compliment! And I'm still looking! trezjr 03:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What kind of position am I in with the "potentially libelous" tag on the piece? trezjr 04:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, now I understand what you're talking about! That tag isn't specific to this article, it is being added to every article on a living person, so as long as things are sourced, which they are, I think you're okay... Sorry you thought it was specific to this article! plange 04:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, again! trezjr 04:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eddie Fenech Adami

What do you think of the changes I made? Can we increase the scale? I did references, infobox, in text citations ... hope its ok! Maltesedog 08:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Great job!! You should nominate it for GA and see what happens... plange 16:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: CMS style

It's the citation format followed by The Chicago Manual of Style; there's a halfway-decent example here. Hope that helps! Kirill Lokshin 17:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, from a really pedantic standpoint, the citation templates seem to format references in some bastardized variant of the APA style, and I'm not sure whether the footnote format is the same between CMS and APA (or whether APA even permits footnotes); but the issue is so minor that I wouldn't really worry about it. If anyone actually cares, they can always reformat the references. Kirill Lokshin 17:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

The da Vinci Barnstar
I award Plange the da Vinci barnstar for being a genius! ‎Kaldari 06:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Guantanamo Bay detainee stubs

Do you want these articles put into the military workgroup? Let me know either way on my talk page please, as I'll tag them soon. --kingboyk 12:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Virginia Barnstar

The Virginia Barnstar, awarded to Plange for excellent work on the Virginia Project!
The Virginia Barnstar, awarded to Plange for excellent work on the Virginia Project!

Given by RebelAt with hope it is not too humble a creation for such amazing work!~ (The Rebel At) ~ 16:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you!

Thanks for your review of the Nhat Hanh article. I've been working hard on it and appreciate the feedback! Nightngle 20:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Jake Gyllenhaal

Where does it say BLP boxes and WP:BIO boxes have to be on a person's page? Dev920 22:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say WPBIO had to be on there, but it does handily include the BLP warning which does -- see WP:BLP. Having project templates on Talk pages is now pretty standard too, and it helps us assess articles and maintain quality and to make sure it's part of the WP:1.0 project ;-). I've just given it a rating of B on our quality scale. plange 22:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adminship

When you feel you're ready - which might well be already - I think you should stand for adminship. If you want me to nominate you, I'd be quite happy to. Just leave me a message on my talk page. (On the other hand, I won't be offended if you choose someone else - your call!). --kingboyk 23:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoah, thanks!! Am flattered! I think I might wait a bit as I'm still getting my legs and not sure yet what being an admin even entails, or what the process to becoming one is - I'm glad you think I'm ready and I'd be happy to have you sponsor me when the time comes! You asked earlier when I started, and I think it was sometime in June that I became active here (though I'd signed up earlier). plange 02:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Best wait a while yet then, 3-4 months would be good. --kingboyk 18:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Lee-Chin Article

Thanks for your feedback on the article. I will get working on correcting the citations, spelling and punctuation today. Do you have any suggestions for finding information on people? He doesn't have a biography. I've scoured the net for information about him, but a lot of it is just corporate bio stuff, that tends to conflict with each other. If I contacted the company directly for information, that would count as original research, right? So beyond that... I'm stumped for more info. Blowski 06:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Abingdon Photos

Popping up on dial up here in Abingdon. While I've taken pictures of the courthouse, Barter theatre, and will Martha Washington Inn, if I have a chance, I'd be happy to go snap a shot of a place around town you've been wanting an image of. In that line of reasoning, let me know if there's something I can get a picture of before I leave! ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 12:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Oooh, I'll think about that, but off the top of my head I'd love a photo of the Johnston-Trigg Law Office which I think is now called the Summers Law Office and is owned by the Historical Society-- It's on Court Street. It would be great to have that for the John W. Johnston article, thanks! plange 14:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Got the pic! Hope ya like 'em. I'll put up some thumbnails here tomorrow evening, for tomorrow, I bid adieu to Abingdon.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 02:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Here ya go, hope it works for ya! ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 04:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brendon Urie

Thank you for reviewing Brendon Urie page. I will work with other people cleaning this page to get it into better shape! (please comment on my page as well)Hackajar 17:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kenny Richey article

Thank you very much for taking the time to review my article on Kenny Richey. I appreciate your thoughtful comments and advice, and I look forward to using them to improve that article.

No need to respond. Marklemagne 19:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Hello :-) Thank you for the welcome. FloNight talk 01:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Hi Plange, thank you for the welcome -- Lost(talk) 06:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Award

The Exceptional Newcomer Award
Dear Plange, I'd intended to award you a barnstar, but upon discovering you're female the planned "Working Man's Barnstar" doesn't seem quite right :) Here, instead, then is something a little different and certainly very well deserved. You've done an amazing job bring the Biography WikiProject back to life and you've had quite an impact on Wikipedia. I'm also very impressed at your versatility - whether it be organisation, answering newbie questions civilly, or editing our rather esoteric template, you can do it all! Congratulations, and I look forward to you joining us in the admin ranks soon. kingboyk 12:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military stub tagging

Hi again Plange. It looks like you've been tagging the military biographical stubs categories, which funnily enough was going to be my next port of call :) Are you doing the subcategories too? How many have you got done? More to the point, should I choose another category? --kingboyk 12:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military history WikiProject Newsletter - Issue VI - August 2006

The August 2006 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot -- 12:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Brendon Urie Review

Thank you for reviewing Brendon Urie article. I have made major revisions you have remarked about in comments. If time permitted, could you re-review article and/or give suggestions to push it into B-Class and possible ready for Nomination to GA. Hackajar 13:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Agitators

Hi Plange... ...what would your recommendation be for dealing with some of the agitators you have to put up with? I have one in particular--I can give you the name--that I would love for you, or someone you can recommend, investigate for an agitative disposition that has commandered certain bio pages, taking them over to the point that I will probably not contribute to them again. trezjr 17:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Plange :-) Saw your message to Kingboyk. I have a strong interest in keeping biographies in good shape. Especially biographies of living people. I'm will take a look at the above problem if you want me too. New member of the biography crew, FloNight 22:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
That would be great-- I'm not an admin and don't have experience in mediation yet plange 23:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Let me know as soon as you find out who is causing problems or the name of the article with editing conflicts. Take care, FloNight 23:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for the greeting.

Thank you for the welcoming message. Right now I am adding just the {WPB} to articles that I trip across. It will be a while before I am comfortable rating articles.

When I first started editing articles I borrowed heavily from IMDb, but then I realized that wasn't fair to IMDb (not to mention copyright issues). My feeling is that "Filmographies" should be limited (mostly) to wikilinks to articles that already exist. Lists of movies with dates and character names (and ....) are usually copied directly from IMDb or at least duplicate that effort. Are there any guidelines for the Filmography section? Thanks! Schmiteye 15:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You helped choose Winston Churchill as this week's WP:AID winner

 Thank you for your support of the Article Improvement Drive.
This week Winston Churchill was selected to be improved to featured article status.
Hope you can help.

Davodd 17:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Firefly welcome

Thanks for the welcome! Let me know if you need any admin stuff done; I'd be happy to help. Cheers. :) --Fang Aili talk 16:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question I cannot really answer

... but I will look for the answer, here it goes :

Copied from Lincher's talk page.

== Yasser Talal Al Zahrani‎ ==

I am not sure what kind of comments you were looking for.

Over a dozen articles related to Guantanamo detainees have been nominated for deletion -- unfortunately most of the nominations were, IMO, built upon serious misconceptions. If a classification by a member of a team of impartial observers makes the next person to consider nominating those articles for deletion pause for further reflection, that would be a good thing.

During the most recent {afd} discussion over Guantanamo detainees I realized I couldn't say, exactly, how many of those articles had not been expanded beyond the stub stage. So I went through them last night. Most of the stubs already contain quite a bit of information. But there are a few that don't yet contain very much.

Does your project contain any guidelines, or examples, over and above WP:BIO, WP:BLP and WP:DEL about which biographical stubs don't have enough information to remain in article space?

I have done my best to make my contributions to these articles pass the strictest NPOV test. Please let me know if you think my contribution, or someone else's contribution to that article, falls short.

Cheers! -- Geo Swan 17:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

  • From Lincher 17:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    Hmm... if we ignore the "pro-Bush lynch mob is out to get me" line in response to a run-of-the-mill AFD nom (hint: I'm not American, I don't like Bush, I'm only interested in helping make this the best enyclopedia possible) it was my opinion on the AfD that the stub articles ought to be consolidated in a list, a list which - given the rich sources and information available - ought to be a contender for Featured List status. --kingboyk 17:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you're asking me? plange 00:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

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