Talk:Platonic idealism

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I've been dealing with Platonism in math for 50 years becaause of the implication that mathematicians are elitist shamans. I started college only after serving 1941-45 in Military Service and after marriage. A woman working with my wife told her I was negelcting my wife and marriage by studying math, physics, history, German, French, etc., because I should remember these and other subjects from my origin in Heaven. She said she could remember all of Calculus if she tried, but she didn't have time for this. She said I was lazy or stubborn to study such subjects instead of trying to remember them, implying that this was heretical. I don't know if he was aware of it, but platonism is one reason for that dire warning of the late Carl Sagan which I quote in http://members.fortunecity.com/jonhays/sagan.htm. Is any one else concerned about this?jonhays 01:32, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No, not really. The first thing you should have remembered was that anamnesis is not an important part of Plato's philosophy--MWAK 15:15, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

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this copy was contributed then "kidnapped". whatever administrative purpose that might serve, kidnapped knowledge invites liberation, and indeed the kidnapper's page encouraged visitors to redeem this. there is another article on the platonism page, but this text might have something to contribute, for those familiar with the topic and able to sort any relevant contribution not already in the article.

the self-reference to wikipedia in the now-draft text below goes against a widely accepted convention, but the reference to platonic relationships, and more importantly, to the basic platonic tension between real and ideal might enhance what is on the main page. the redeemed copy also includes reference to some specific proponents or antagonists of platonism, which if accurate is of general reader interest.

the former text:

Plato's influence on Western culture was so profound that several different concepts are linked by being called "platonic" or Platonist, for accepting some assumptions of Platonism, but which do not imply acceptance of that philosophy as a whole:

• In civics or politics, a Platonist is someone who advocates a system resembling Plato's Republic. These are really quite rare.
• Neoclassical economics is sometimes described as Platonist in some sense, probably because of neoliberal assumptions about pure capitalism as an ideal system which actual economies must attempt but never really achieve.
• A platonic relationship is one that does not involve sex.

By far the most common use of the word is among mathematicians, where a Platonist is one who believes that mathematics is not created by man but discovered in some undescribed realm. This leads to some serious confusion:

The absence in this thesis of clear distinction between mathematical and nonmathematical "creation" leaves open the inference that it applies to allegedly creative endeavors in art, music, and literature, including articles in Wikipedia, itself. In other words, Wikipedia articles approach some kind of truth that they cannot, in the end, fully express.

In the philosophy of mathematics proper, a Platonist is one who accepts mathematical concepts as real and discovered, period. The "other realm" is rarely discussed. But yet a Platonist must accept an ontology resembling Plato's ontology in order to deal with the tension between real and ideal objects. That is, he (and almost all mathematicians are male) must accept that there is, first and foremost, a "real" and "ideal" realm, and some means to peer between them.

There are theories of realism in mathematics which carefully earmark the assumptions they make to deal with this tension, e.g. the cognitive science of mathematics. Most Platonists do not and are thus accepting Plato's ontology by default as a foundation ontology. A lucid statement of this is found in the autobiography of British mathematician G. H. Hardy.

Hilary Putnam rejected the label Platonist because of this implication, but was otherwise a "realist" in the sense of believing mathematics to be discovered. He proposed that quasi-empirical methods and quasi-empiricism in mathematics were a more useful way to explore the ontology of proofs, via mathematical practice. Today other realist theories explore Where Mathematics Comes From, some of whose ontology is founded on empirical methods. All of this moves towards a single "discovered" realm - away from Platonism.

[edit] Plato Neoplatonism ????

Neo Platonism is not based on Plato. Its based on Platonius. The founder of Philosophical Gnosticism. (Nous, Gnosis, and all that jazz) And he is not related to plato. Some people try to rationalize that he was influenced by Plato. I think thats mainly because they acidently attributed it to plato and then try to rationalize it after the fact though. --Jaynus _Izanagi 01:46, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Neoplatonism is distinct, but derived from platonism. The misunderstanding here may be due to Jaynus misspelling of Plotinus. --Blainster 10:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Let's hope so: it might be based on Harriet Dallas's book :o).--MWAK 15:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move requested

Platonic currently redirects here. I think it would make more sense for Platonic to be a dab page between this page and Platonic love, and for extra differentiation, move this page to Platonic idealism — which is how it currently reads anyway— and make Platonism a redirect to Platonic idealism. "Platonism" gets more Google hits than "Platonic idealism," but I think that's just because it's easier to type. The latter seems more useful as a description of the philosophy to me. Are the two terms completely interchangeable? If not, does it still make sense to move the article? Discuss.

• I vote Move, naturally. --Quuxplusone 9 July 2005 02:11 (UTC)
• Support. – AxSkov (T) 11:36, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I've done this and created a (really) basic disambig page at Platonic - you might want to expand it a little! Talrias (t | e | c) 20:10, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page also give some representation to the idea that the dialogues are not expressing any 'system' at all? It seems to be a common enough view among those I know that have studied them for years. One could point to the first half of the "Parmenides" and the problems it raises with forms or the criticism of written philosophy in the 'Phaedrus' as evidence that Plato had no 'ism' that can be attributed to him but rather raised philosophical questions and sought to provoke questions in the reader. This view seems to be taken by Allen Bloom in the introduction to his influential Republic translation. But then, in the interest of full disclosure, I go to St. John's College, U. S. which is institutionally sceptical of 'isms.'

Most scepticists like Plato's writings. They then rationalise this by making him one of them. Some even deny they are scepticist by claiming to denounce any "ism" ;o)

Plato's thought evidently developed over the years. As the temporal order of his works is unknown to us, we can only speculate which direction it took. It's good to be sceptical of any attempt to derive some definite system. On the other hand it is quite plausible that he had much more coherent views than his dialogues at first blush would suggest and that the latter are in fact very clever manipulations to indoctrinate the reader with them. It might even be that he really had "secret" writings that are now lost to us. You never know. But of course you would agree with me on that... --MWAK 15:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another related issue

It seems that this article is either duplicating or competing with Platonic realism, in which article the intro says, "Platonic realism is also called Platonic idealism, Plato's theory of universals, Platonism, or just 'realism' for short." There is a whole family of articles related to Plato where there is much repetition and as well, contradiction. There should probably be a Platonism template and an effort to consolidate some of the articles. --HK 14:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Good questions! This is how I would answer them:

1. Although Platonic Realism is indeed sometimes called Platonic Idealism, the concepts are not congruent. Many would deny that Plato's idealism entailed a realist stance. And Platonic Realism is a more general philosophical position, while "Platonic Idealism" is typically reserved for the views of Plato himself. It's therefore best to keep two articles.
2. Some repetition is inevitable and often a lot of repetition is quite functional.
3. If there are any perceived contradictions, try to solve them. But be wary. Sometimes they are merely perceived :o).
4. A Platonism template would be very nice of course.
5. Wikipedia should be in a permanent state of improvement. Try to fight the understandable but ultimately disastrous tendency to "consolidate". Articles are not ideals :o).Or was it a euphemism for "merge"?

--MWAK 15:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)