Talk:Pioneer Zephyr

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To-do list	Pending tasks for Pioneer Zephyr:	(purge cache –  edit this list)
	Populate the stubbed sections Add details on the train's use in revenue service Add photos from throughout the train's service history (the photos of service in Illinois are probably of the Mark Twain Zephyr and not the Pioneer Zephyr) Add photos from the train's static display in Chicago (I've got a few to add that I took last year slambo 16:12, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)) Add technical details on the train's configuration (a fourth car was added after it entered revenue service). Add timetable data from revenue service Add route maps from revenue service Discuss the fact that it was an articulated train and not separate cars as was standard at the time Update the lead to more properly reflect and summarize the article contents
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Contents 1 Revenue service photos 2 Nice to haves 3 Shotwelding/spotwelding? 4 Trainset? 5 Italics 6 Cab controls

[edit] Revenue service photos

The two photos that are shown of Zephyrs in revenue service are more likely of the Mark Twain Zephyr than the Pioneer Zephyr since they show the train arriving at locations in Illinois (which were not on the Pioneer Zephyr's revenue route). I have been able to find only one photo of the Pioneer Zephyr in revenue service online ([1]), and the page I found it on seems to indicate that it's a royalty-free image, but I haven't found a definitive answer on whether I can use it in this article or not. A copy without the watermarks is here. slambo 16:15, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nice to haves

• A simple stick-map of the dash route on a stick-map outline of the US would really punch up that section. If one doesn't exist I might be able to do it if someone can confirm if today's tracks run the same route as then. Or, even better, if there's a messy one someone can provide I can clean it up (would the route shown on the PDF on the amtrak.com Routes page be a close enuf approximation?).
• Also in that section, an approximation of the distance of the dash would be nice, along with some idea of typical or average rail speeds of the time. I'd re-state the average speed of the dash here, too.
• If the front of the train was destroyed in the 1939 crash, I assume there was some human cost as well; is there any info on how many people were killed or injured?
• Was/is stainless steel also not as recyclable as regular steel and iron, which were also recycled during WWII?

I think that's it. Niteowlneils 03:32, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Added the length of the dash, 1,015 miles. I don't know how this tidbit got overlooked. Anyway, on the dash's route map, I can put something together too, much like I did for Image:DME and ICE route map.JPG, I just haven't found a good reference for the CBQ's route in 1934; I know a couple of the cities the railroad connected to, but I'd like to get some more definite facts before I start on that. My guess is that from Denver, it traveled to Lincoln, Omaha, Kansas City, Galesburg and then on to Chicago, but I'd like to be sure before I state it as a fact. I've found a photo of the "Dawn-To-Dusk Club" (the passengers on the dash) after their arrival in Chicago, I'm just waiting for permission to use it here.

I'm not sure about the injury toll for the accident that was mentioned, the Johnston, et. al., book only mentions "with tragic consequences" and that the cab was destroyed. I'll see if I can find any more details.

Stainless steel was not as easily recyclable as other steels at the time, probably for the same reasons that a new welding technique needed to be developed before it could find extensive use as a carbody material. I forget which of the references I saw that note in, but it was definitely one that is listed in the article. slambo 04:34, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

I just got an email back from the repository that hosts the photo I mentioned above. Unfortunately, I would not be able to use it for the article without submitting a use fee. Oh well. Time to send of an info request letter to the NMRA library to see if I can get the route to build a map from. slambo 16:32, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shotwelding/spotwelding?

The technique described in the article as 'shotwelding' is known as 'spot welding' today. Is there a reason for refering to it as shotwelding?--FeloniousMonk 06:41, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

read the patent. It is not plain old spotwelding, but a significant refinement thereof. Fawcett5 13:01, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fawcett5 is right. The patent calls it shotwelding, so that's the terminology used here. slambo 13:43, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trainset?

To me this term is ambiguous and implies that this train is in fact a model railroad train. Maybe Trainset is the correct professional term, but for the benefeit of people who are trying to learn something new, perhaps this added confusion could be eliminated. (unsigned comment from 209.222.223.58)

As a model railroader of 20+ years with many professional railroad acquaintances, "trainset" to me means a group of railroad cars that are permanently or semipermanently coupled to form a single unit for operations; while "train set" (note that there is a space in this one) is a collection of train equipment, either prototype or model, but more often associated with models. I haven't seen a printed resource to back this up, or to state it to the contrary. I'm going with how the term is used in the industry. I will add a note in the article to explain the term and its meaning in the industry. slambo 22:55, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Italics

The italicized "s" in the possessive form of Zephyr is incorrect. I only know of two ways of correcting this, both with HTML, but apparently that is frowned upon. Wayward 07:02, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

I took a quick look through my copy of the MLA Style Manual (ISBN 0-87352-699-6) on this one. I didn't see anything either way for possessives of italicized names. Sec. 3.4.7.e on possessives simply states "To form the possessive of any singular proper noun, add an apostrophe and an s." We could take this to imply that the "'s" should not be italicized, but that's something that I would expect the MLA to spell out specifically. Since it doesn't say there about italics, I'm more inclined to leave it as it is. As to de-italicizing the possessive here, it shouldn't be that difficult: ''Zephyr'''s produces Zephyr's. slambo 16:47, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed., p. 201, 6.29: "When a proper name is in italic type, its possessive ending is preferably set in roman". The time abbreviation in the article is also incorrect. There should be a space between the numerical time and the abbreviation, and periods between the letters of the abbreviation: 7:04 a.m. and 8:09 p.m. I corrected this once, but… Wayward 03:29, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Okeydokey. I'll defer since Chicago specifically mentions it and MLA doesn't. Personally, I have no preference on this issue, I was just going with what I had at hand. slambo 15:37, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Minor addition: When time is abbreviated with small capitals, the periods are unnecessary. Wayward 20:37, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I think I've got them all updated as noted. slambo 15:44, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

There is a wiki problem with your last edit, causing unintended bold and italic text. Wayward 18:37, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Doh! Should have seen that coming. I've wrapped apostrophes in nowiki tags so they render properly now. slambo 20:57, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Just a historian's note here, but all GM locomotives built prior to 1941 were built by the Electro-Motive Corporation (EMC). The Electro-Motive Division (EMD) was formed on January 1, 1941 with the merger of the Winton Engine Company with EMC.

[edit] Cab controls