User talk:Pinkville/Archive

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Earlier Discussions ~ Jun 2005–Sep 2006

Contents 1 Welcome 2 Welcome #2 3 PSI 4 Bounty Board 5 The George Psalmanazar International Appreciation Society is pleased to announce... 6 Felice Beato 7 African country bounty 8 Wikimedia Canada 9 Architecture of Africa - new AID collaboration 10 Eh!? 11 RE: Adolfo Farsari 12 Sing Sing Image 13 Cats 14 Domon Ken 15 Invitation 16 Alleluia! He is Risen! 17 Re:Felice Beato 18 A People's History 19 Howard Zinn 20 Wikipedia:Persondata 21 Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot 22 Jerry 23 John Thomson (photographer) 23.1 Re: Thomson and Gong 24 Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 2006 25 James Ensor and the Forth Bridge 26 Re: My Lai Massacre 27 Misunderstanding 28 Barnstar revert 29 Starting with A 30 re:Schiele 31 suggestion 32 Sleep with the Clowns... 33 Ueno Hikoma 34 Use English 35 expatriate 36 Wikiproject:Architecure Peer Review proposal 37 IG Farben Building FAC 38 Welcome! 39 Jacob Riis 40 Carl De Keyzer 41 Biography Newsletter September 2006

Welcome

Welcome!

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Welcome #2

Welcome! (We can't say that loud/big enough!)

Here are a few links you might find helpful:

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If you have any questions or problems, no matter what they are, leave me a message on my talk page.

We're so glad you're here! -- Essjay · Talk 05:52, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

PSI

Thank for the help. I don't know what it is. I can't proofread my writing to save my life; however, everyone all throughout school came to me so I could proof their paper because I was so picky. I am glad that my Google bar has spell check. Now, if I would just remember to use it! You are certainly deserving of this award. Accept it with my blessings and greatest appreciate. See you around the site. Psy guy ^(talk) 19:56, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Happy to be of assistance. Thanks for the award! But the difficulty you describe in editing your own work is pretty normal, I reckon. When you're so close to the material and you know what it's supposed to say it's a lot harder to notice errors than when you're looking (with greater detachment) at someone else's work. All the best! Pinkville 16:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

"Reckon" you must be a kindred Southern spirit! Psy guy ^(talk) 17:14, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Ha ha. It would have to be "spirit" because I grew up in Calgary, lived in Ontario for 8 years and have lived in Montreal for 15! But it's an expression I've always had an affinity for, I guess. Pinkville 20:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Montréal is in Southern Canada, right?! :-) I didn't read your user page until after I left the comment. I decided to leave just to gauge your reaction. I was, personally, born and raised in Kentucky. Therefore, I have a strong connection to Southern American culture: slow twangs and country music (eventhough some of the really good country singers are from Canada). I ususally get picked on when I use works like "reckon" so I assumed you must be from the South. Psy guy ^(talk) 18:38, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

lol There are a lot of people who can't imagine such a thing as "Southern Canada"! But the other source of "reckon", weirdly enough, is Britain, where it is also used a lot, though not quite in the same way. Here's a typical example: "Apparently the firms reckon UK staff will provide Indian colleagues with...". I'm a fan of folks like Patsy Cline, Marty Robbins, Waylon and Willie, and Tom Russell, amongst others.Pinkville 20:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

The oldies. They are great. I have tickets to see Dolly Parton later this year. I splurged and bought orchestra seats. 100 bucks a pop. But it should be worth it. Psy guy ^(talk) 02:26, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Bounty Board

Greetings. You've recently been involved with working on get articles up to featured status, so I wanted to let you know about a new page, Wikipedia:Bounty board. People have put up monetary bounties for certain articles reaching featured status - if the article makes it, the bounty lister donates the stated amount of money to the Wikimedia Foundation. So you can work on making articles featured, and donate other people's money at the same time. If this sounds interesting, I hope you stop by. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 01:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea! As for Felice Beato, it has already made featured article status - would it still be part of this immediate plan? Pinkville 20:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe so, but you would have to ask the Bounty Keepers for the individual bounties you think it might qualify for. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:22, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

That makes sense! Thanks. Pinkville 22:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The George Psalmanazar International Appreciation Society is pleased to announce...

George Psalmanazar Prize in Forgotten Biography	For the de-obscurification of Felice Beato.

A donation of $10 USD has been made in your name to the Wikimedia Foundation. May Felice Beato no longer be forgotten!--Pharos 00:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Felice Beato

Thanks for your message. I am delighted, that you are pleased that it got translated into German. By the way, I - naturally - checked some literature as well, although not so extensively as you obviously have. To my literature, a large encoclypedia on the history of photography, Felice Beato got naturalised as a British person in the 1860s. I probably will change the now translated text to that as I regard this encyclopedia as pretty trustfull.

Anyway, I really enjoyed translating your article, because I liked your article quite a lot -- and as I can see from the George Psalmanazar International Appreciation Society I am not the only one. Right at the moment the article is in the "Review process" and hopefully attract somebody to check my sometimes not so very good spelling and german grammar (it always gets even more awfull if I translate something). And afterwards it will run for the german equivalent of the "Featured articles" - and although in the german wikipedia the standards for Featured articles are rather high, I am right at the moment pretty confident that we make it.

Best regards, de:Benutzer:BS Thurner Hof

Viel Glück mit de:Felice Beato! Thanks for your message. I have also come across references to Beato becoming a naturalised British citizen at some point. If he really was born in Corfu then he would have been born with British protected person status. Becoming a British subject (i.e. citizen) would have been a step up. Note (from British subject): "Within the Empire, the only people who were not British subjects were the rulers of native states formally under the "protection" of the British Crown, and their peoples." Pinkville 21:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

African country bounty

Do let me know if you start work on a African country article (and/or the Wikipedia:Africa-related regional notice board), and I'll try and help out a little. I agree entirely about the lack of Africa content. Comparing, e.g. Gondor and Guinea-Bissau is quite an embarrassment to the project! — Matt Crypto 01:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Gak! That's an apt and tragic contrast! Then there are all the articles on computer game characters, etc....! Pinkville 02:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikimedia Canada

Hi there! I'd like to invite you to explore Wikimedia Canada, and create a list of people interested in forming a local chapter for our nation. A local chapter will help promote and improve the organization, within our great nation. We'd also like to encourage everyone to suggest projects for our national chapter to participate in. Hope to see you there! -- user:zanimum

Architecture of Africa - new AID collaboration

Eh!?

Hello! Thanks for your note. I reverted what I thought was anonymous IP vandalism; I regret any possible collateral damage. :)

As for immigration specifics (according to a quantitative peursal of my Canadian Global Almanac 2005): there appears to be a significant spike 1910–13, tapering the following year and lessened until 1919–20 with a minor spike, afterward stabilising and generally increasing again (more or less) until 1930, when immigration again nosedived until 1948 when it generally increased after that.

From a relative perspective (percentage), it appears that significant immigration occurred prior to WWI with cyclical (and largely reduced) immigration after that. I'm unsure we need to atomise details of this immigration pattern in the main article (maybe in Demographics of Canada?): perhaps it can be better summarised as such: "...and variably in the early 19th century" or "...and variably during the world wars"? My key in editing would be for simplicity. This isn't a huge issue for me, though. Thoughts? Thanks.E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, looking at the original sentence again: "The majority of Canadians descend from white European immigrants who arrived mostly during the 1800's, and variably during the world wars." (my emphasis), I think the latter part (", and variably during the world wars") should be removed altogether if I'm right in assuming that 20th century immigration to Canada was increasingly of people other than white Europeans. Based on your information, is my assumption correct? Maybe this should have been two sentences - one about the majority of Canadians descending from white Europeans who came in the 1800s and another about general immigration in the 1900s, which (judging from what you say) mostly increased through the century except during the World Wars and the Great Depression. What do you think? Pinkville 14:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Great ... and I just noticed your response to the above; forgive my ignorance. Immigrant sources for early figures were unavailable (though I'm sure they are somewhere). While I don't dispute the first clause, it's unsourced as well. Anyhow, the second clause was intended to be independent of the first. That being said two sentences may work, or one punctuated properly: the key herein is to summarise the situation in this overview article. How about something like this: "A majority of Canadians descend from white European immigrants who arrived in increasing numbers until WWI. Throughout and since the world wars, immigration to Canada has fluctuated somewhat but become more heterogeneous in makeup."? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

That starts to sound better! Sadly, I don't know the exact facts... Pinkville 01:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe the above accurately, yet briefly, describes the situation. Some may argue that immigrants (more recently) are increasingly of Asian descent. Anyhow, I'll place it and see what happens.

As for facts, I'll aim to create an article about immigration (with stats), but don't guarantee a speedy turnaround on this. Anyhow, thanks again! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 09:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

RE: Adolfo Farsari

Hi ... thanks for your request (and praise!) – I'd be happy to review it. Can I get back to you in a few days? Merci! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 00:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Ditto...I too shall do the same Doc 03:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Sing Sing Image

Eesh. That's a harsh image. That's most likely precisely the chair that malfunctioned during the execution of Ethel Rosenberg. Although I guess it wasn't a malfunction properly speaking. Electric chairs would sometimes not kill but only set various portions of people's heads on fire from time to time, including as late as the 1990's in Florida. Ironically, both with respect to Ethel Rosenberg and the person in Florida, each was likely innocent of the charges he and she were convicted of. Okay, that's not really irony...for me at least.

I actually have a book called Condemned with photography completely from the Sing Sing death house. It doesn't have that poignant picture, mostly mug shots of the people executed there. Unended 02:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I was just imagining the photo with the complexions of the various men reversed: five black men attending to the grooming, etc. of one white man in a chair... maybe with a mint julip in his hand. Oh, the parallel lives of the (truly) innocent and the (truly) guilty!

Don't even the names of Prisons have a mordant, poetic resonance that goes even beyond their obviously powerful presence in history: Sing Sing, Angola, Pelican Bay. In Canada there's Spy Hill, Stony Mountain, and there used to be the "hipper"-sounding: P4W [Prison For Women], till they moved the women in with the men...

In my work on 19th century photographers in Asia I've come across a lot of images of executions and other punishments, subjects that were of great fascination to the second generation of European and American colonial functionaries and tourists in China, Japan, etc. (say, from 1865). The number of views of the Execution Grounds in Canton, which served as a public market when not in use for beheadings, is remarkable. The undercurrent in these photos (sometimes openly expressed in their captions) is of the harshness of Justice in these lands and of their people, apparently more in touch with the Beast within than the enlightened, scientific, civilised and well-groomed savagery- Justice back home. To be sure, such methods as the cage and the cangue are more Mediaeval than Victorian, but this sort of comparison is still more like that of fleas and lice. In the play Marat/Sade, the character of the Marquis de Sade (while in the insane asylum of Charenton) bemoans the new scientific age, with its refinements of methods of killing exemplified by the guillotine, which can kill thousands in the time an executioner with an axe kills one... the guillotine represents an assembly line of death. The same sort of "civilised", "scientific" issues arise in the debate on lethal injection, don't they... Pinkville 13:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Cats

Hello. I'm very impressed by Ueno Hikoma. (Is the fact that he died before the 20th century what excuses us from having to reverse the order of his name for sclerotic anglophone consumption?) It's one of the few decent articles on Japanese photographers, who, predictably, are underrepresented in en-WP: photo people seem obsessed with anglophone and to a lesser extent francophone photographers, while of course the Japanese contingent are into saccharine and infantile ['scuse me!] "popular culture".

Uh, but would you consider removing the categories from the draft Ueno Hikoma in your own subpage?

I'm also happy to see your article on Elio Ciol, which I augmented with material gleaned from a book of Ciol's works that I bought in a store in Venice when his name was unknown to me. (I now wish I'd bought an extra copy or two.) -- Hoary 15:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your kind words (also for reminding me about the categories in my drafts - I had forgotten to delete them). I've noticed that Anglo-American-Franco-centricism regarding photography topics as well, and after writing the Felice Beato article I wanted to start working on redressing the imbalance. Too many important but neglected photographers! As for Ciol - I saw your valuable additions to the stub article. Very pleased to see more about him! I am slowly working my way through the List of photographers to at least provide some basic information about as many of the photographers without articles as possible. I love your story of the Ciol book, it epitomises the way in which Wikipedia is for many a genuine labour of love! Looking forward to seeing more of your work. Pinkville 17:34, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

And yes, regarding the name order: "Ueno Hikoma". The Wikipedia style guide on Japanese names has something to say on the matter: use traditional name order for Japanese people who were born before the Meiji Era (i.e., before 1868). Also, I try to go by the order used by the person herself/himself. Finally, for all names I consult authorities: Library of Congress and Union List of Artist Names. Pinkville 17:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

This reverse naming business is ridiculous. Japanese Wikipedia doesn't insist on, say, "Modotti Tina"; both Asahi Camera and Nihon/Nippon Camera provide the names of Japanese photographers both (i) in Japanese script and (ii) in more-or-less-Hepburn (ugh) in the original order; thus, "Domon Ken". But "Araki Nobuyoshi" wouldn't be sufficiently anglocentric for en-WP, I suppose.

Anglo/francocentrism: yes, and isn't it also odd how photographers here are, in an Ur-American way, rigidly categorized by nationality, sexual inclination, etc. ("Jewish photographers", "Gay, lesbian, and bisexual photographers" and perhaps soon "Zoroastrian photographers" and "Celibate photographers"), but hardly by the kind of photographs they took? I kicked off "Portrait photographers" the other day; we already have "Fetish photographers" (not my work) but not (e.g. for Ciol) "Landscape photographers".

I have photography books very much on my mind these days as th' missus and I haven't yet quite settled down after a move of house, and thus we have piles of the things on the floor. Only some east European and Italian stuff are easy to access right now, which is how I could locate Ciol's book but unfortunately have no idea where my larger Kimura Ihei book is.

This is most impressive. You might be interested in Domon Ken Award for some more names. (Yes, Asahi seems to refer to this award -- named after the person it calls Domon Ken [even in roomaji] and WP would call "Ken Domon" -- the Domon Ken Award, so that's how I titled the article. I nervously await somebody's RfC on my disrespect for WP traditions, family values, or whatever.) Time permitting, I might start articles on some of them. (Some who aren't crossed out already have articles.) I'm definitely not going to start articles on some whose talents seem to me to be negligible: you can win the Kimura prize and become famous if you're young and pretty and take uninteresting color snaps of tropical "paradises", yourself, your friends, your car or your dog. Actually I need to do more work on Hiroh Kikai (surprisingly, not in your list), which for the time being has a rather absurd mass of footnotes that I must streamline before some other editor steps in and screws things up.

Back to names for a moment. I write "Hiroh Kikai" because it and "Kikai Hiroh" are the forms that most often appear in roomazi (though I've also seen at least one of "Hiroo Kikai" and "Kikai Hiroo") and because of the asinine en-WP rule that says the names of Japanese people born after 1868 must be reversed. I couldn't care less what this or that US library dictates, and indeed this use of "h" strikes me as most unfortunate. Consider 小原 and 大浦: thanks to this bizarre use of "h" these very dissimilar surnames would come out as "Ohara" and "Ohura" (I'd use "Ohara" and "Ōura" respectively). -- Hoary 00:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

PS Kimura Ihei has been started. As for photography cats, any opinion on what I wrote here? -- Hoary 13:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The list of Japanese photographers has been assembled somewhat haphazardly - as I come across a name in kanji/kana I add it to the list. So there are many names I'll never actually write about, and some whom I would like to add and write about that I haven't found. Library of Congress gives: "Kikai Hiroo" as the preferred form, incidentally (ULAN doesn't have anything at all). I have similar concerns about transliterated names. My preference in principle is to use whatever the person uses themselves. But it's an ongoing issue not only with Japanese photographers, etc. but with many historical figures (of whatever background) whose names often are not "fixed" (Felice Beato being an obvious example). As for the Japanese names, besides some books I have handy (Japanese and "Western" histories of early Japanese photography), I also use two online dictionaries: Jeffrey's Japanese<->English Dictionary Server and Jim Breen's WWWJDIC Japanese-English Dictionary Server. The former includes many personal and placenames in romaji, kanji, kana, English and French. Oddly, it even has the kana transliteration of my somewhat obscure Scottish family name (マクワーター)!

I completely agree regarding the categories. I think there are many Wikipedians who prefer creating categories to actually dealing with content, and who (unknowingly?) fall back on reassuring nationalisms and other bigotries that appear to authoritatively organise material. I understand people wanting to affirm (their) identity by collecting "LGBT" or Jewish photographers, yet what do such categories mean? And the double-edged sword comes to mind every time I come across such articles as "List of Canadian Jews", in a certain light, such a list looks eerily like a police state's list of targets... I agree that categories based on photographers' practises make much more sense - portrait, landscape, architecture, documentary, etc. On the other hand, I've been resistant to adding similar terms to the "List of photographers" as being too limiting in defining the photographers themselves. But including photographers in categories of work, as you're suggesting (doing), seems right - not limiting. If that all makes any sense. Pinkville 04:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Domon Ken

Oh gawsh, sorry, I mean Ken Domon. Yes, he deserves an article. Two problems, though: (i) the little work I've done on Kimura Ihei has, temporarily at least, rather exhausted me, and (ii) although I think the best of Domon is first rate (I have three books of his works at home), a book of his stuff picked up at random is likely to bore me to tears. Maybe if I were Buddhist I'd be interested in Buddhist statuary and his photos thereof; as it is, I'm not. I realize that he was wheelchair bound and that the photos are technically impeccable, but I'd rather be looking at most alternatives . . . at least until I glance at other editors' barrel-scrapings. -- Hoary 07:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow! How did I ever miss that guy! His studies of adolescent butt-cheeks alone are worth several thousand words of commentary.

I may start the Domon article, though one of the advantages of working on 19th century photographers is that it's so much easier to use images of their work. Besides, I don't know that I could write anything that would rise to the standard set by the editor of Yoji... Pinkville 12:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I gather that it's standard practice (if not principle) in WP to take any image you want from anywhere on the net, ignore copyright, stick it in your article and in all seriousness claim that its recycling is "fair use". I find this very dubious and also (given the low informativeness of a lot of fancrufty photos) a waste of resources. The other thing to do is to find a book cover or similar that displays the photo you want, take a photo of it, then claim the result is your photo, ha ha. While I'm no fan of copyright avarice, I find the arrogance and/or stupidity of such claims repellent and would prefer it if people straightforwardly said they stole the photos -- but in an age when "collateral damage" is the term for mass homicide I guess I'd better learn to love such euphemisms and rationalizations. Hoary 15:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC) (edited Hoary 01:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC))

Sorry I have taken so long to reply! I have been away from the Internet for a while (except for brief incursions..). I'm sorry I missed your scavenger hunt for 福原信三 Fukuhara Shinzou and 福原路草 Fukuhara Rosou, but glad you found them. I have (access to) the same History of Japanese Photography (I believe, and quickly recognised the brothers from that book). Works by the Fukuhara brothers also appear in the fine series: Nihon shashin zenshu = The Complete History of Japanese Photography (12 volumes)' (Tokyo: Shogakukan, 1985), which I'm sure you've seen/have. Pinkville 02:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Actually I haven't looked in that zenshuu. Indeed, I haven't even seen it. I've enjoyed the work of a lot of photographers, a lot of them Japanese, for quite some time, but it's only in the last few months that I've become interested in the bigger picture in Japan. So for example while I always looked within the 40/41-volume Iwanami series for volumes on photographers whose work I more or less knew and liked, it's only recently that I find myself (in library or bookstore) pulling out volumes on photographers I've never heard of. So please don't hesitate to set me right on matters that ought to be obvious. Meanwhile, Kuwabara Shisei now has an article, and here's another list for you (though necessarily of recent photographers). -- Hoary 09:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Great list (inspiration for many future articles!) and pleasing to have the start of an article on Kuwabara! Pinkville 02:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Yuh, I thought I'd get that rolling in time for his show in the Ginza Nikon Salon, which starts next week. (Next to pop out of the pipeline is likely to be the very dissimilar Juumonji Bishin.) Meanwhile, my question here may interest you. -- Hoary 03:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ishimoto's article is ten times more valuable than it was this time yesterday. Well done on that. -- Hoary 06:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Try Asahi Camera. Not great, but at least it's better than the crap Japanese-language equivalent (which I may say was even worse till I spent 30 seconds on it a few minutes ago). -- Hoary 06:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Invitation

--Fasten 12:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I'm willing to be a mediator in another case. Pinkville 20:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Alleluia! He is Risen!

Jesus Christ is risen today, Alleluia!
our triumphant holy day, Alleluia!
who did once upon the cross, Alleluia!
suffer to redeem our loss. Alleluia!

Hymns of praise then let us sing, Alleluia!
unto Christ, our heavenly King, Alleluia!
who endured the cross and grave, Alleluia!
sinners to redeem and save. Alleluia!

But the pains which he endured, Alleluia!
our salvation have procured, Alleluia!
now above the sky he's King, Alleluia!

where the angels ever sing. Alleluia!

-- Psy guy ^Talk 05:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Or not. Pinkville 22:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Re:Felice Beato

I shrank it because the size it was at (600px) was stretching into the format of the article and making it look atrocious.

If you can find a suitable size for it other than what it was originally and what I shrank it to that doesn't screw up the article format, then you are welcomed to do that obviously. 75.2.29.148 03:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

A People's History

What about my description was not an accurate description of his book. Please be precise. Stanley011 14:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

"Left wing" and "revisionist" are POV terms used to disparage what is being described. The use of these terms has already been discussed on the talk page and NPOV replacements were selected. "Cartoon illustrations" is both highly misleading (readers will likely expect images in any book so described) and contemptuous, therefore POV. The use of the word "purportedly" is inappropriate, since the word means that others - not Zinn - imagine the book as X; a more appropriate alternative would be "ostensibly", but even that suggests duplicity on Zinn's part, again POV. The better alternative is to rewrite the passage using a phrase like, "attempts to tell" or "intends to tell", etc. The example you give does not illustrate the previous two sentences - it's a non sequitur. It is also written in an inappropriate tone and in several ways inaccurately describes the chapter cited: 1) it incorrectly suggests that Zinn has shifted the focus of his book away from an account of US history to one of Vietnamese history, whereas Zinn summarises the events and official justifications of the US intervention, providing accounts from various participants in the events - a few are Vietnamese (or Cambodian, Laotian, etc.) but overwhelmingly more are American; 2) the celebration of "the communist rebels' victory" (in which "celebrates", "rebels" and "victory" are all problematic terms) can only be inferred from two or three sentences at the start of the chapter and at certain points later, the chapter mostly recounts the key moments of the war, the justifications offered by US planners for it, and the attempts by various parties to avoid fighting it or to oppose it; 3) the wording of your example suggests that this chapter primarily discusses the aftermath of the Vietnam War and conditions in unified (i.e. post-1975) Vietnam, which it obviously doesn't, it discusses the war itself. I hope that answers your question adequately. Please review the Howard Zinn and People's History of the United States talk pages for a better understanding of issues that have already been discussed and worked through. Pinkville 17:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

If "A People's History of the United States seeks to present U.S. history through the eyes of ordinary people" then through whose eyes does conventional history seek to present U.S. history? Weirdos? Freaks? Why the use of "ordinary" in htis context, Pinkville? Stanley011 17:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

As is explained in numerous places in reference to this book (in Wikipedia and elswhere), conventional histories tend to portray history as the story of kings, politicians, business leaders and military commanders - generally, wealthy white men in positions of power. That is the norm to which Zinn's book is intended to provide an alternative. Pinkville 18:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

It is entirely consistent with your description of "conventional history" that the portrayal of the story of "kings, politicians, business leaders and military commanders-generally, wealthy white men in positions of power", hsa been told through the perspective of working class people and other as you say "ordinary" people. There is an assumption inherent in your description that you take for granted as true but is not necessarily true--that assumption is that the story of the elite (aka conventional history) is necessarily told through the eyes of the elite. It is entirely possible that conventional history has been dictated to us by oppressed classes "looking up" as it were, rather than by elites looking within their own milieu, which is how you understand conventional history. To fix the problem, emphasize the fact that the work is unconventional because it attempts to describe history through A perspective, as opposed to conventional history which also might (as I noted) describe history through a perspective (either that of the elites or that of the oppressed) but might not SEEK to Stanley011 02:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC).

If the paragraph that I returned (with modifications) to the article had ended after, "A People's History of the United States seeks to present U.S. history through the eyes of ordinary people," your point would be arguable, but it's clear from the remainder of the paragraph, i.e.:

depicting the struggles of Native Americans against European and U.S. conquest and expansion, slaves against slavery, unionists and other workers against capitalism, women against patriarchy, African-Americans against racism and for civil rights, and others, as Zinn suggests, whose stories are not often told in mainstream histories.

that it is not only who writes history that is at stake here, but also the subject matter of history, that is, the stories that are not often told. Your claim regarding "my" understanding of conventional histories has no supporting evidence in any of these pages, since I don't mention my own views, but rather Zinn's views. My understanding of conventional histories is irrelevant. Your "solution" to the "problem" seems to reiterate what's already in the passage, which states, "present U.S. history through the eyes of ordinary people... whose stories are not often told in mainstream histories." (i.e. non-conventional material from an alternative perspective). It seems pretty clear to me, without any need for further emphasis. Finally, any description of history has a perspective of some sort, and certainly such perspectives are sometimes unconcious, but I don't see how that observation has any place in the article, since it's too general a comment and it doesn't apply to Zinn or his book. Or maybe I've just misunderstood your point? Pinkville 18:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Howard Zinn

Good edit conflicts result in more information, better sources, and greater neutrality. Bad edit conflicts result in blind reverts, contorted prose, and endless sniping. I suggest talking some more. Try to find out what the other editors are expecting from the article, and share with them what your expectations are. Try to pin down the differences, and see if there is a compromise or a third way which will at least barely satisfy everybody. I'll go post the same adminition to the other editor to be fair. Please, let's have a good edit conflict. I don't want to get into the details of this dispute, but I know it's about a tag. Would it be possible to exchange the article-wide tag with a section tag? -Will Beback 09:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

re: As another editor who has worked on the Howard Zinn article, I have to say that I don't agree with having tags placed on the article, though I do agree that there are problems with the article that need to be addressed and resolved. I believe the tags - and a number of reversions, etc. have inflamed the issue, provoking (the too-provocable) skywriter, and producing a lot of misdirected effort to deal with a growing edit war, rathern than the article itself. I still believe a more productive, consensual approach is possible. Pinkville 02:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Pinkville. I did not realize I am the problem. If you think the article can be improved, why don't you do so? Bibigon wanted to restructure it, and I suggested Bibigon go ahead and do that. Skywriter 15:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Now don't get all defensive with me. If you carefully read what I stated above and elsewhere you'll understand where I think the problem lies. I do think you have responded too aggressively to Bibigon's provocations, but it is obviously Bibigon who sparked the whole thing with his/her contemptuous edit summaries and cavalier tagging. That said, the article needs improvement, and I have made some small changes that I think have made some passages read better, etc. I've done what I am currently able to do. My suggestions to you - take them as you like - are to limit the Zinn quotations and instead try to summarise his thought, etc. and to avoid getting into battles that divert your energies - that's just playing into the hands of people who are hostile to Zinn, et al. Incidentally, I have commented elswhere (the mediation cabal page, I believe) that the changes you have recently made have been for the better, but I want to make clear to you the two reasons I would like to see this article avoid the pitfalls of many other articles on progressive (and therefore contentious) figures/subjects: for the betterment of Wikipedia generally, and to provide a clear and compelling summary of the life and thought of one of the most important American historians. It's with those goals in mind that I intervened in this dispute in the first place and I have been afraid that the Zinn article might come to resemble those articles on, say, Palestinian liberation, etc. that end up being unreadable, fraught with right-wing troll-like edits and comments and ultimately useless or worse. I think Bibigon can be reasoned with, unlike some other editors I've come across, so let's appeal to his/her reason. Pinkville 16:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Persondata

Yes, thanks for that: I had been struggling with a concise way to express it. If you speak any German, by the way, the de: article (which is also featured) seems to contradict the English one on this point! But the English version seems superior. Wikipedia:Persondata is an interesting concept: one of the things that the German Wikipedia does well and hasn't really taken off on the English one. It would be cool to be able to produce a "directory of all the notable people who have ever lived" which is ultimately what Persondata will allow, complete with birth and death location, life summary and a link to a Wikipedia article. Hopefully more people will start adding them to articles in the future; there are getting on for 100,000 persondata entries on the German Wikipedia! TheGrappler 00:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, 100,000 entries is astounding! I'll remember to add persondata to future articles!

I'm familiar with the German version of the article (although my German is very sketchy, I can understand a subject I know well, like Beato). I wrote the great majority of the English Beato article and just as it was "completed", BS Thurner Hof started translating the article into German. Not long after the German version became an Exzellente Artikel, I found a new (2005) source for Beato's birthdate: 1833 or 1834, and this source effectively puts to rest the previous dates that had been suggested, etc. In other words, the German article simply hasn't updated the information yet. I believe there are one or two other points of departure between the two articles, but nothing too serious. Thanks for your compliment on the English one. Having read the major sources and many minor sources on Beato in English (plus many in French and a few in Italian and German) I believe it is the most up-to-date and comprehensive biography of Beato in a concise form (the John Clark book cited in the references has a year-by-year chronology of Beato that is superb). Pinkville 01:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

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Jerry

Apparently, this is the same editor. [1] -Will Beback 05:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you serious? Lovely. :~( Pinkville 12:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, this username [2]. Though they don't show up in that search, an internal search turns up a number of references to his work on Wikipedia, including boasts of how much white nationalist material he's been able to sneak in without anyone objecting. -Will Beback 20:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

One thing I find interesting about this whole case is how it reveals the intellectual limitations of the right wing mind (I don't mean this flippantly). As Georges Erasmus once said of Tom Siddon, that's some thick we're dealing with here. Pinkville 22:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Earlier attmepts by Stmormfront denizens to affect WP articles were so ham-handed that they were obvious. This guy was a little more clever, and very energetic, so it'll take some work to repair. See User:Will Beback/JJ for a consolidated, sorted list of articles he edited. Many of the iamges he uploaded are alos problematic - he'd apply whatever license tag he could get away with, and give false sources too. -Will Beback 23:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I saw your comprehensive list - harrowing. I also thought it remarkable how many images JJ loaded without any licensing - and that issue has yet to be raised (hopefully, it won't have to be). Pinkville 00:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've cleaned out a couple, but it'll be my summer's project to review them. Frankly, I think the images were uploaded simply as a cover, to bury his offensive edits. -Will Beback 04:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems plausible. They're such innocuous images (as far as I've seen), unlike his other edits. Is it that I've only just come to notice ongoing admin/user crises or has there been a recent upswing in intentionally damaging edits and harrassment, nasty exchanges, etc. Some of the items on the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents are really horrible - is this business as usual? Pinkville 20:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

John Thomson (photographer)

Thanks for your comments. He's been on my list for a while, and somehow he managed to leapfrog the queue above several others yesterday :-) --Cactus.man ✍ 10:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Pink, I see you've been busy working on fixing the article, thanks for that. I had a lot of difficulty resolving the Chinese locations mentioned in the references, with current day usage (particularly "Taiwanfu" which I had to admit defeat on). You seem to know your way around this area, are you from China, or have you travelled there? --Cactus.man ✍ 19:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a great article, by the way. I believe there's more that can be added, but as it stands it's an excellent summary of his career and importance. I haven't been to China, but for the last 4 years I have worked documenting (thousands of) photographs for a museum collection, mostly for a project dealing with photos from China, Japan and Southeast Asia (which is one reason you'll see photographic subjects relating to those regions prominant in my user contributions). Handling historical placenames in Asia can be tricky, depending on the country (Japan doesn't present too many problems, except Edo/Tokyo). In China, specifically, there's the problem of which transliteration system to use (usually a choice of Wade-Giles or Pinyin), added to the confused usages and spellings by many 19th century visitors to China. I try to use the most common form from the time the photo was taken with a parenthetical update, like: Foochow (now Fuzhou), or for better-known paired names, just the older form with a link to the new form: Peking, since both Peking and Beijing are well-known names for the same place. A couple of resources might be of help when you're trying to find the "definitive" name for a place: Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names and the Library of Congress Authorities. Let me know if you need any help with these two sites, or with any name questions. One of the weird things about doing this kind of work, which almost entirely involves 19th century photos, is that I know my way around various distant places very well, such as Hong Kong, but unfortunately my familiarity is 150 years out of date... Pinkville 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointers, I'll file them away for future use, although it's not usually something I encounter in my normal editing, but thanks again for cleaning up my initial efforts. If I ever need help on this front, I'll give you a shout. Happy editing ... Cactus.man ✍ 10:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Thomson and Gong

Thanks for the info. The image is redundant (and orphaned), and can therefore be speedily deleted. So I'll go ahead and do so. --Cactus.man ✍ 20:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought so (but the deletion protocol is not something I'm up to speed with...). Pinkville 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 2006

I've given some info at Talk:Tamil Nadu state assembly election, 2006#Political Persuasions. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 11:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Your additions are great! Very helpful. Thanks so much. Pinkville 13:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem. You might also be interested in the still evolving History of Tamil Nadu#Post Independence period and a well referenced List of Chief Ministers of Tamil Nadu. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips! Pinkville 11:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

James Ensor and the Forth Bridge

Thanks for the link to James Ensor (such a non-Belgian name!!), not an artist I was familiar with but I do like what I've seen ... (adds to list for more research) ... And I would be happy to help in any way if I can with Scotland related matters and the Forth Bridge - such a fantastic structure. I can't guarantee any definitive knowledge in any areas but just ask anyway :-) --Cactus.man ✍ 20:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome and thank you! Pinkville 20:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: My Lai Massacre

Of those references, only 3 are cited in the article. Several entire sections have absolutely no citation at all. The entire article is also systematically biased, providing only one POV. —Aiden 15:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've responded on the article talk page. Pinkville 16:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Misunderstanding

It is not me who awarded those barnstars. A user User:Schoolhouseawarder is spamming people with barnstars. I think that action has been done against this user. Anonymous_anonymous_Have a Nice Day 13:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I just realised! Thanks for enlightening. Pinkville 13:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar revert

High-speed mass spam, which resulted in the user earning an indefinite block. You're free to put it back on, but reading the text of the award, it reeks of bad-faith. NSLE _(T+C) at 13:35 UTC (2006-06-02)

Doesn't it just! A very backhanded compliment. I think I'll pass on replacing it. Pinkville 13:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Starting with A

Pink, you recently reclassified a certain middle-eastern photographer, name starting with A. The more I investigated, the more oddities I discovered. If you have a few spare moments, you might keep an eye on this. -- Hoary 07:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, before I shifted this polymath prodigy to the sub-list I poked around in some of the pertinant pages. Perturbing... Pinkville 10:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that Ansel Adams receives so much vandalism. Is it an "A" thing? -Will Beback 11:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, he's on the "A" list in more ways than one. I'm sure being near the top of the list is convenient - plus, he's one of the few photographers that almost everybody has heard of, making him a more likely target. Pinkville 13:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It gets funnier. Following the link to the Persian-language version of this biography I found a stub article with an image of Shahyad tower in Azadi Square, Tehran, which was built fully 11 years before this remarkable renaissance man was born! (In fact, you can make out the red-linked date in Persian at right. I hope Mr. A isn't claiming (or someone on his behalf) to have helped in this construction! So many accomplishsments - even after his birth - for someone of such a tender age... Pinkville 02:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"hamid reza" is credited as the photographer, [3] -Will Beback 03:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Right! So neither photographer nor architect of this Tower - maybe he starred in a movie that was shot there... Or maybe he painted it white. Pinkville 13:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey man, you're just so square and cartesian. Like, once you see the light and become a deconstructionist, you realize that all truth is relative. (And if it ever isn't, then at least truthiness is.) And we're all in this space–time continuum, so it's all like an eternal now. But hey, if you don't get this, that's cool too. Hoary 06:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Where do, like, carts come into this? I've never driven a cart in my life!? (Ooh... I love all the categories and multi-lingual versions he added back!) Pinkville 13:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

re:Schiele

Thanks, I'll admit I'm no expert of art history but it didn't make sense to not include a nude. I'm going to try and track down an earlier work at some point to demonstrate his progression(evolution?) a bit maxcap 13:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If you can find an image of one of the works he did while he was still under the influence of Klimt that would be perfect. Pinkville 14:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

suggestion

The name is just old and stupid. It makes you look like a stereotypical america-bashing canadian. So boring. Get in line. But how about this clever twist instead: "Mr Pinkville". 69.105.138.61, who failed to sign this helpful suggestion. Pinkville

"Get in line." There goes another rugged individualist... Pinkville 13:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sleep with the Clowns...

I'm gonna be aware from the computer for a bit. If he goes on a rampage you'd better find another admin. Thanks for the tip though, I'll watch as best I can. -Will Beback 18:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've mentioned it on another appropriate Admin talk page, too. ...Don't bother, they're here... Pinkville 18:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There ought to be clowns. -Will Beback 19:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Are we a pair? Pinkville 20:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe next year. -Will Beback 20:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ueno Hikoma

Psst, before the Good Article Inspectorate turns its bloodhounds on this article, would you care to look at the <!-- SGML comments --> that I've sprinkled within it? -- Hoary 00:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Did I find all those SGML comments? Pinkville 01:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yup! Hoary 02:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

"GA": I really wonder about the mindset (or even willingness to read) of some of the inquisitors.^[1] (Ueno Hikoma wasn't so hard hit. By contrast, consider the fate of -- uh, no, I'd better not say anything that would almost certainly start a flaming row.) Meanwhile, as you'll have noticed, I stuck in the subheaders that seemed to be demanded -- and that strike me as completely unnecessary. Time permitting, I might work a little on specifying which datum came from which source -- a practice that I approve but carried to a rather ludicrous extreme in the Kikai article. -- Hoary 03:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

There is, in Wikipedia (as elsewhere), a little too much attention paid to form over content. That goes for sub/headers (in such a short article?!) and, often, inline citations (I agree with their use in principle, but the practice leaves much to be desired). Nevertheless, I'll go through the article again and provide the citations for (often unremarkable) data. I have recently found new and illuminating information on Ueno and his career that I will be adding soon. Pinkville 13:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Splendid. Since my original inspiration at WP, the inimitable Giano, continues to produce one featured article per fortnight or so (it seems), I have a certain inferiority complex and am in the mood to contribute to an FA. Unfortunately the application process (let alone the actual "featuring") would certainly attract morons as a ホイホイ attracts コキブリ; still, would you be interested? -- Hoary 14:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely. With Felice Beato, I was amazed at the number of said morons and their moronic edits when the article appeared on the Main Page. But the whole enterprise was quite rewarding. (And the process leading up to and including its receiving FA status was mostly problem(moron)-free). Pinkville 14:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Righty-ho then. Unfortunately I'm hobbled by possessing just one relevant book, the Yale UP monster. Still, a nearby library may have something. -- Hoary 01:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

1. ^ Try this. Argh.

   Well that looks enjoyable... if you enjoy beating your head against the wall. Pinkville

Use English

Would you care to look in at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) - and the other subpages? I have never seen the real argument for using English so clearly put as you did on the Aliyev move discussion. Septentrionalis 00:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'm just a little exasperated that it took so long before I thought to look at the Azeri Wikipedia! I'd be happy and interested to check out the Naming conventions talk pages. Are there any discussions in particular that you are interested in, or is it just a general suggestion? Pinkville 01:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

No; I just think you would find the company congenial. Septentrionalis 22:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite! I had a look and the discussions do seem interesting and of good quality. Pinkville 22:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to help, but this is a topic that I find painfully uninteresting. user:Wisden17 did a great job mediating a similar case. You might ask him if he can help. Cheers, -Will Beback 20:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly painful. Thanks for the tip. Pinkville 23:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

expatriate

I am using the term 'expatriate' as defined in WP and do not think editors should be using any other sense of the term. Based on this definition, I believe my categorization is correct and is consistent with the other people listed as expatriates throughout WP (most of which preceded my work; some of which I have done). Thanks Hmains 15:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I accept (with reservations) the use of the term in general, but describing someone like Beato - whose place of origin is not known for certain (though it was definitely not the UK or Italy, it was probably Corfu) - as an "expatriate" is problematic. I advise caution when using the category. Pinkville 17:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject:Architecure Peer Review proposal

I'm trying to build a consensus for a Wikiproject Peer review process. I've opened a discussion page here. Would you like to comment? Would you be prepared to take part in the peer review process? Many thanks. --Mcginnly | Chinwag 12:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. I'll check this out - and I'd be happy to join the peer review. Pinkville 13:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

IG Farben Building FAC

Also, I posted the IG Farben Building on the FAC on the 17th July. It currently has a support consensus, but only from 4 people. I'd be more comfortable with a stronger consensus and was wondering if you might be prepared to comment on the article? Many thanks. --Mcginnly | Chinwag 12:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll read it and comment. Pinkville 13:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for your comments, I've amended the article to incorporate most of them. "Thus, the building looks taller to the external viewer from some vantage points." might have to wait a while - it's residual from the German FA and I confess doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, I think it's something to do with the variable ground floor height - but possibly ground level - more time with the dictionary for me......--Mcginnly | Natter 00:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I sensed a few translational issues... It all looks much better now. Pinkville 02:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for your further comments, I know it's quite tedious to provide scrutiny like that but the articles really benefit from it. On the peer review suggestion the response has been completely underwhelming - We might have to shelve it until we get some more active wikiproject member - but I'll let it run for a week or two, I'm surprise dogears or DVD/RW haven't put there ha'pennies in yet.--Mcginnly | Natter 02:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's hard to get thing going for long-term projects such as yours. Maybe it's easier just to find a numbe of like-minded editors, create a priority list, and go ahead and act on it. In such a vein, three or four editors (including myself) have gotten together to do an informal project on photography. I'm happy to help with the architecture project anytime you need a hand; these days I'm concentrating on photography, but I can always take a sidestep. Pinkville 02:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

Jacob Riis

I happened to notice that Jacob Riis (to which I'd made no contribution whatever) was up for goodarticleship, and took a look at it and tweaked it here and there. I'd guess that you're a lot better informed on Riis than I am at the best of times -- and right now "my" library is closed for summer. Take a look, if you have some free moments. -- Hoary 08:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip off. Actually, I don't know much about Riis - except some general facts, but as you can see I've made a start at rewriting some of the more awkward bits of the article. Pinkville 14:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Good edits there. I've also taken a second look and made a few stylistic changes; I hope I haven't sleepily undone any of your good work. Meanwhile, toward the other end of the notability scale, consider this chap. And, further along it, sorry, Bob. -- Hoary 04:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC) ..... PS and Yoji and Scarlet 07:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

That chap is truly remarkable. I suppose when "he was featured in the Slovenian issue of Playboy Magazine" he was crossundressing... I'm almost sorry to see Bobby go: those eyes, that hair! Yoji might get further consideration as a photographer-prodigy: "... whom he photographed during the eighties between age 11 and 16...". Now for Scarlet, I believe she's a genuine borderline case, but I'll leave it up to someone else to plead her case.

Your edits to Riis also look good. It seems to be coming along. Pinkville 13:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Scarlet may indeed be on her way to notability; page me again in five years, but I don't think she's there yet. As for Yoji, his support seems to confuse the demand for over-the-counter legal softcore kiddyporn with his notability as a photographer of same. Oh well, anything goes at WP, I s'pose, as long as it's related to "popular culture". (Incidentally, did you see the recent comment on Bobby's talk page?) -- Hoary 14:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree on all points. As for Bobby, I have a mind to replace the article with the long comment on his talk page (far more informative, if obsessional)... The "biting" reply to your comment suggests a litte more credulity than I'm comfortable with. Pinkville 16:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Carl De Keyzer

Hi,

I noticed you reverted my indexing change. I also noticed that earlier, you changed the article's title from "Carl De Keyzer" (which is the correct form) to "Carl de Keyzer". Why did you do this ?

The man's last name is "De Keyzer", with capital D. It should be indexed under D.

--LucVerhelst 20:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

In the meantime, I visited his website. Apparently, for the international public, he uses a small 'd' in his last name. You were right, moving the article, since this is the English language Wikipedia.

That being said, I still think the article should be indexed under D, since the "de" is a full part of his family name. --LucVerhelst 20:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a genuinely debatable point. To determine the most authoritative form of an artist's name (the form that is most supported by scholarly research in the English language) I rely on a few select sources:

• Union List of Artist Names (ULAN)
• Library of Congress Authorities
• Artnet

I also use the Dictionary of Art (Jane Turner, ed.), and a variety of other printed references. The first two links provide the preferred forms of names and also their (non-preferred) variants. I found Carl de Keyzer in the Library of Congress Anglo-American Name Authorities, the preferred form being: "Keyzer, Carl de", the form of indexing that is most often used for Flemish and Dutch names in English (and unlike French names in English). A striking similar example is "Gogh, Vincent van" as the preferred form for the painter (in both Lib of Congress and ULAN). I hope that's not too long-winded a reply to your question! :~) Pinkville 00:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right that it's a debatable point. Even in Dutch there is no strict line. I believe that in the North indexing more often than not would be done on the 'K', where as in the South indexing always will be on the 'd'/'D'. There is no general rule in the Dutch language. I wonder why the Americans would use the Hollandic Dutch, in stead of simply applying English language rules. --LucVerhelst 09:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia style guide page for this English Wikipedia, quote:

People with multiple-word last names: sorting is done on the entire last name as usually used in English, in normal order and not (for example) according to the Dutch system that puts some words like "van", "vanden", etc... after the rest of the last name. Example: [[Categorie:Nederlands voetballer|Basten van Marco]]; [[Category:A.C. Milan players|Basten, Marco van]] → [[Category:A.C. Milan players|Van Basten, Marco]]

and User:SomeHuman's remarks at User talk:Andrew Dalby#De l'écluse. This matter seems to have been discussed before. --LucVerhelst 19:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, although the rationale for this style guideline is a little contradictory (the usual form in English in fact varies depending on the language of origin, and drawing from the sources I mentioned, the "usual" form for Dutch names in English is to index a la "Gogh, van") the guideline is straightforawrd enough. If you want to revert my reversions, please go ahead. Thanks for the info, etc. :~) Pinkville 00:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Biography Newsletter September 2006

The September 2006 issue of the Biography WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. plange 00:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)