Talk:Piggy (Merrie Melodies)

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[edit] Disambiguation page

May I suggest there be a Piggy disambiguation page? I'm pretty sure piggy as a small pig, Miss Piggy, and Piggy from Lord of the Flies are all astronomically more well-known than the subject of this article. "Piggy" should at least link to Miss Piggy right now, until more articles can be written. Just a suggestion. KyleGarvey 02:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with it. The WB Piggy would go to Piggy (cartoon character)? Have at it. — BrianSmithson 14:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I made the changes -- the article that was here going to Piggy (Merrie Melodies)--, but I hope it's correct. If I have time, I'll start the Lord of the Flies's Piggy page, but I doubt I'd be able to write much. KyleGarvey 21:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay, no problem. It may be good enough to just link The Lord of the Flies instead of trying to do a page on one character from it. Just for future reference: When you move a page, try to always use the "move" tab at the top of the page instead of cutting and pasting. If you just cut and paste, the article's history doesn't follow it to its new destination. In this case, I was able to fix the problem, but I just thought I would inform you of the proper procedure for these sorts of things. — BrianSmithson 16:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, sorry about that. And the link going to the Lord of the Flies page is a better idea, but I don't know how to change titles and stuff, so maybe you or someone else could switch that back. Thanks. KyleGarvey 17:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I undid the links I made to Piggy (Lord of the Flies) on Piggy disambiguation and on Lord of the Flies, and I can't find the page anymore. Is it gone because nothing links to it, or does it still need to be deleted? KyleGarvey 17:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean Piggy (Lord of the Flies)? If so, just edit the page and turn it into a redirect for Lord of the Flies. (I found this page by looking at your contributions. You can do the same by clicking on the "my contributions" link at the top-right of the page.) — BrianSmithson 02:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I thought you were suggesting I delete it altogether. I will make it a redirect, but since I changed all the Piggy (Lord of the Flies) links to point to Lord of the Flies, I thought it might be "tidier" or something to delete it. Maybe I'm just anal. KyleGarvey 20:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Nothing wrong with that, I guess! Redirects are cheap (they take up negligible server space, etc.), so there's no harm in creating them or letting them lie. — BrianSmithson 20:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hampton J. Pig

I'll take it on good faith that Piggy is the same character as the one in Pigs Is Pigs, but I don't think there's any real connection between Piggy and Hampton J. Pig from Tiny Toons. — BrianSmithson 13:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It was Friz Frieling's original intention that the Hamhock family be recuring characters. Piggy was the original character that he built the concept around. The characters were to based on the concept of morality. Mrs. Hamhock's children would each embody one of the seven deadly sins and one of the seven virtues -- making each of them a sort of contradiction. Piggy represented gluttony and cleanliness (his virtue was displayed in "At Your Service Madam"). The concept was abandoned after "Pigs Is Pigs" with Piggy's characteristics for a time being passed on to Porky Pig. Hampton is very much in character like Piggy -- both glutton and clean freak. The only difference between the two is that Hampton on occasion fights his nature. Each of the various Tiny Toon characters was developed based on the past characters of a WB Loony Toons character. The appearance of Bosko and Honey in one episode demonstrates the extent of research the production team did in their developments. Porky, for all he was, just doesn't reflect Hampton as Piggy does. No, they are not the same character -- my error in wording. But Hampton was clearly developed from him. -- Jason Palpatine 21:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You may be onto something, but without a source it's unfortunately original research. Do you have a source so that we can satisfy the requirements at WP:CITE? — BrianSmithson 23:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The only information I still have is referencing the various WB shorts. Both "At Your Service Madam" and "Pigs Is Pigs" featured the Hamhock family. The Piggy’s personality characteristics were shown in both episodes. In AYSM, it was shown that he is a glutton, clean freak, and Mrs. Hamhock’s first born. To a lesser extent, only a brief bit sequence showed the characteristics of the other children in the clan as they got up for breakfast. After that, center stage was Mrs. Hamhock and W. C. Swine's attempt to steal her inheritance, with Piggy leading his siblings to stop it from happening.
If you watch the Porky Pig episodes from that era, you will see him depicted almost exactly like Piggy. In a lot of episodes, he is fat like Piggy in the colour picture with this article and is ALWAYS a glutton. This was even brought up in the WB 50th anniversary mocumentary that was shown on CBS (I don’t rember its title). In "Wholly Smoke" (1938), the morality aspect of the Hamhock Family series was again at the center of the story -- something that would NEVER happen again in a WB cartoon. Porky is cast as a child who crosses a moral line -- this time the sin of pride would get him in trouble. Porky's mother, if you examine the episode closely, is none other than Mrs. Hamhock herself; German accent and all including the same outfit she wore in “Pigs Is Pigs”. In "The Blow Out," Porky is again drawn as fat Piggy, appetite and all; with his gluttony again a key factor in this episode – this time as a goal for him to achieve, resulting in him unwittingly bringing about the arrest of "the mad bomber." It would be a number of years before Porky Piggy would be discarded for the more refined pig we generally know; beginning with his team-ups with Gabby Goat and Daffy Duck.
There was a book I read about the history of the WB cartoon division for a report I did in high school that I recall much of this from; I no long remember the title. The Hamhock episodes (and the Piggy episodes) constitute a small and insignificant chapter in the WB history. It’s highly improbable that any HARD information about this exists. A footnote in WB cartoon history. The only reason “Pigs Is Pigs” is considered significant is not because it was Piggy's final on screen appearance or the surreal force-feeding story line but rather because it is the first ever appearance of Frieling "hold the onions" gag.
When the Tiny Toons characters were created, the production staff researched the entire MM/LT library because the characters would on occasion actually be dealing with the history of the MM/LT universe. One episode alluded to “Pigs Is Pigs” when Buster Bunny used a variation of the force-machine in an attempt to break a character of moral fault -- the constant use of fowl language. Hampton was developed as a derivative of the early years Porky Pig who had Piggy's personality traits for a time. -- Jason Palpatine 02:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, you seem to be on to something. But if you can't provide a source beyond your own speculation, the information does not belong on Wikipedia. — BrianSmithson 03:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess, with all I said, I didn't make myself clear on this -- what you just said is what I just meant. K? Jason Palpatine 03:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, okay. :) — BrianSmithson 12:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Authoritative: Piggy and Piggy IS Piggy

You said” I'll take it on good faith that Piggy is the same character as the one in Pigs Is Pigs." This fact is verifiable, along with the morality aspect connection to "Wholly Smoke" (1938). I got that particular piece of info from “Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies: A Complete Illustrated Guide to the Warner Bros. Cartoons” by Jerry Beck and Will Friedwald. [[1]] -- Jason Palpatine 22:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, okay; good job. Go ahead and create a "references" section with that book listed, if you don't mind. — BrianSmithson 02:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Go ahead and create a "references" section

I have no idea of HOW to do that. Before you refer me to the instruction page -- I've already been there. You probably would have found the look on my face entertaining. It reads like a COBOL manual. I couldn't figure any of it out. Jason Palpatine 03:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Mickey Mouse Allegation not NPOV

Please offer evidence for your insistence that Harman and Ising were copying Mickey Mouse. Please offer some citations from a credible evidence and not mere opinions. Your opinion that Piggy looks like Mickey Mouse is not evidence.. it is merely an opinion. I. for one, do not think they have any resemblance. They are both cartoon characters drawn in style of their times. Terrytoons 00:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Bosko, Piggy, and Foxy are all obvious Mickey Mouse rip-offs, a notion supported by both Leonard Maltin's and Charles Solomon's animation histories (and probably others as well). Unfortunately, my copies of both books are in the US at the moment, and I am not, so I can't provide the citations that you request. If you want to change the article to ignore the immeasurable impact and influence of Disney and Mickey Mouse on the animation of the time, you have free reign to do so, I suppose, at least, until such time as I return the U.S. or another editor with access to animation history books provides the requested proof. -- BrianSmithson 05:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


Would you say that the work Harman and Ising produced before Mickey Mouse were also Mickey Mouse ripoffs?. The cartoons Harman and Ising produced before Mickey Mouse look exactly like the ones they were producing in the early 1930's. I have looked at numerous sources from the time period and no one even asserts that Harman and Ising were attempting to copy Disney. As a matter of fact, when Harman and Ising were producing this cartoon in 1930 and 1931, Walt Disney was a one of the lowest points of his career and the quality of his cartoons during these two years can not be compared with the polished and expensive cartoon being produced by Harman and Ising. The proof that Harman and Ising were drawing characters in their own style can be seen easily by looking at their work prior to the creation of Mickey Mouse. Luckily, much of this earlier work survives, If you take a look at some of the Oswald the Rabbit cartoons they produced for Universal in the late 1920's you will notice that their drawing style is exactly the same, and this was before Mickey Mouse had been created. Please try to get a hold of one of these cartoons, you will be pleasantly surprised at how much they look like their early work at Warner Bros. "SICK CYLINDERS" (1929) is a great example as sequences from this cartoon were later re-used in "Sinkin'in the Bathtub" (1930) and "Bosko's Holiday" 1931. If you don't have access to these cartoons, please look at a poster Harman and Ising drew which has been posted at the following website: http://www.cartoonresearch.com/winkler/homelessposter.jpg It is evident that the style shown hear is exactly the same as what Harman and Ising would continue to produce in the early 1930's. As a matter of fact, they had a very distinctive style. If you watch the two Cubby the Bear cartoons they produced for Van Bueren you will notice the drastic change that is characteristic of their style. Terrytoons 16:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Here is another good frame: http://www.cartoonresearch.com/winkler/jingles.jpg Notice the lion which would later reappear in the early Merrie Melodies. Also look at: http://www.cartoonresearch.com/winkler/cylinders.jpg It's a shame these aren't more widely available as they conclusively prove that Harman and Ising had a distinctive style. None of Disney's Mickey output has this same style. The early years for Mickey were dominated by Ub Iwerks' style and when he left, animation reached a low point for Disney (in 1930) until he was able to find good talent. When Harman and Ising left Universal, subsequent Oswald cartoon were poorly drawn and never reached the refinement achieved by Harman and Ising.Terrytoons 16:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Sources from the time period are great, but I'm talking about sources from now (Solomon, Maltin, possibly Barrier and others). These are based on interviews with staffers from the time who, in their old age and in no fear of losing their jobs, have talked openly about the copying and mimicry that went on in the period. Again, though, as long as neither of us can or does cite a source, this is all my WP:OR versus your WP:OR. I hope you will look for some printed histories of animation; you will see that Mickey was the king at this time, and the others were trying to be like him. — BrianSmithson 22:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I would love to see any citation from animators or people who were directly involved with the cartoons. If you have a citation please post it here. Leonard Maltin, however, is NOT an authority on film or animation. The only qualification he has is a B.A. degree in journalism which he received from New York University in 1972. That hardly makes him an expert in animation. His books are riddled with errors and he doesn't even write most of them as he hires a number of editors to do the work for him. I have requested Charles Solomon's book through my library and am looking into his background and will get back to you. Terrytoons 10:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
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