Talk:Piers Anthony

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My friend was telling me he had another book called "Kelvin of Rudd" or something like that. But, I don't see it here.

Kelvin is the protagonist of the Dragon's Gold series Anthony wrote with Robert E. Margroff. The series is covered in the article.--Apascover 06:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Categories 2 Total Recall - Book and Movie 3 Pedophilia 3.1 List of potential pedophilia in Anthony novels 4 Clean up 5 Biography? 6 Added book number 7 Xanth Family Trees collaborator 8 Piers' reaction to his Wikipedia entry 9 Proposed works in the Bibliography 10 American or British Author?

[edit] Categories

I just fixed some category redundancy (an article should not generally belong to both a category and a subcategory of that category, but rather only to the subcategory), but at some point someone might want to actually consider whether Anthony should be listed as both a British and an American writer--particularly since (I think) all his published work was written in America. Or am I wrong about this? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 21:22, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Total Recall - Book and Movie

Hmm.. adding "Total Recall" to the list of non-series fiction - but unsure whether it is a novelization or not - the movie was released 1980 and book 1989 - best info I can find so far suggests the book was written based on the screenplay... but no confirmation of that yet. (maybe I'll have to email the author :))

I have held Total Recall in my own two hands, and can vouch for it being a novelisation of the movie. —Paul A 02:35, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Just for the record, it's a novelisation of a movie based on a short story by Philip K. Dick.DS 00:06, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I removed the comment and link to the Total Recall movie from the Total Recall book yesterday, because it was incorrect about the movie being based on the P. Anthony book. Then I read this discussion page, and added the link back in to reflect that the book is a novelization of the movie, which in turn is based on the short story/novella We Can Remember It For You Wholesale by Phillip K. Dick. Then I went searching for more information on what exactly is the progeny of this damn book, and found it (on Amazon.com, of all places!) - this is from a copyrighted blurb from Publishers Weekly so I am paraphrasing: The book was written before the release of the movie, and is a novelization of both the movie script and of the original P. K. Dick story. The first edition hardcover (ISBN 0688052096) was published Sept. 1 1989 by William Morrow & Co. The movie was released in 1990. Both the P. Anthony novel and the movie stick pretty close to the P.K. Dick story (except that the protagonist wasn't a big muscle-dude like Arnie is) until near the end, when it turns into a thriller/chase scene kind of story. Hopefully this ends the discussion! nihilism 19:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pedophilia

I think the line in the intro paragraph about overtones of pedophilia should either be stricken or at least moved further down. I've never heard of such accusations, but that doesn't mean they haven't been made. At least they should be properly sourced and attributed. For what it's worth, And Eternity also has a relationship between an adult male and a teenage (underage) girl as I recall. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:26, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Every Piers Anthony book I've read includes a rape scene or at least an attempted rape scene. Clearly, this is a strange and sick preoccupation--a fetish that Anthony (at least at one point)felt the need to bring to life again and again on the pages of his books. I don't know if this is typical of his work as I haven't read anywhere near all of them.----As well, the overall general all-around eroticism of his books...I have likewise noted.

This is (I hope) a result of your having not read many of his books. I've read dozens, literally. This is not as widespread as you'd have us believe. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 09:49, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

You have, have you ? Did you read 'Heaven Cent', protagonist aged nine or 'Firefly' which features a sexual relation involving a child of five. The only sexual relation possible with a child of five is rape. Anthony is a pervert, end of story. Angusmclellan 13:45, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You certainly have a lot to say about a person's character based on the books they write. I truly believe this to be the case with Mr. Anthony, however. In his biography of a troll, he hints around the very issues mentioned in his fiction. He is also well known for inserting bestiality in his Xanth novels. Even necrophelia is not to obscene for his tastes. He couches it as harmless and as society not understanding, which is truly typical of a sexual deviant of his ilk. --Kerohazel 5 July 2005 18:57 (UTC)

I looked this up wondering if this question had been addressed in the Wiki article. There is truly some stomach-turning pedophila in Anthony's books - very disturbing stuff. The tendency for underage sex scenes between a man and young teenager or young girl should be addressed. It's very common in his books. We can't call him a "pedophile" for what he's written or imply anything about his proclivities, but we can certainly address that he's written these scenes over and over and over again. Does anyone have a list? Danlovejoy 22:28, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Uh, what? I'm reading Heaven Cent right now. Angus is extremely confused. The protagonist is indeed aged nine, and roughly every character they meet has a problem with that, and tries their damndest to keep any hint of sexuality away from him, despite that their world (like the real world) is full of sexuality. If anything, Piers' works are stuffy and prudish, or at least make fun of how prudish people tend to be... in regards to children and natural sexuality.

I always thought Piers Anthony was a dirty old man, but to claim that he "directly" advocates pedophilia because of something he wrote in a work of fiction isn't exactly fit for an encyclopedia. If he has in fact said something outside of his novels about this, then please find a quote and reference it. If it's just what's inside his books, then it's only suggestive of his dirty mind, and not direct. Either way, I think some references are in order. Somebody should get to work compiling a list of all pedophillic (sp?) acts in the xanth novels! (I'm kidding... One or two would probably be ok.) Pulsemeat 04:13, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Basically, his "underage" girls are usually physically mature and are 14 or over. The only exception I can think of is the book Firefly, which was intended to be shocking. I could go to my local library and look it over again so I can make some better comments - should I?

From Piers Anthony's December 2005 newsletter locatred at http://www.hipiers.com: "A reader notified me that the Wickpedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/ carries the charge that I endorse or advocate pedophilia and ecoterrorism. I think this is an example of a person showing more of what's on his mind than what's in my writing. The fact that I may address controversial subjects in my fiction, and have my characters participate in them, does not mean that this is my personal philosophy. Otherwise I would believe in magic, because there is magic in Xanth; be a murderer because murders sometimes occur in my fiction; and be a rapist or pedophile because my novel Firefly addresses those subjects. I did a long interview for Jitterbug Fantasia www.jitterbug.com, where such questions are addressed, coincidentally. I trust that readers who are conversant with my books and with this column will understand what I actually write, instead of what some anonymous critic wants to claim I write. I defend anonymity, and protect it in my ongoing survey of electronic publishers so that whistle blowers can't be retaliated against. But anonymity also serves to hide those who may have private agendas or confusions that don't relate to the truth, as was the case recently in that same survey. My critics have in the past tended to avoid facing me directly, because I don't suffer rascals gladly, and am not afraid to air their charges in a public forum such as this one. I mention once again the charge that I was being an ogre in fan conventions, spread before I ever attended a convention, and the charge that I wrote to Jerry Pournelle and called him a Nazi, but of course he never produced the letter, because it didn't exist. (Actually, in both cases they are thinking of Keith Laumer, who was one mean man after his stroke. He lived about 40 miles from me.) Less egregious instances apply to persistent rumors of my death (perhaps a confusion with Poul Anderson); every so often I have to assure a reader that I remain alive and ornery, despite the evident preference of some critics. Really, do you think that anyone else could mouth off the way I do in these columns?"

Gah! I guess I got the wrong impression from the Geodyssey series, then. Sorry about the ecoterrorism charge. CronoDAS 03:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"Yes. What I consider sexual abuse are things like rape and subjugation. A fully voluntary and informed sexual relationship is something else. So I'd condemn a man raping a 40 year old woman, more than I would a man having consensual sex with a 15 year old girl. The problem is that young children don't know enough to make informed consent. So the age of consent laws help protect them. One thing children crave is love. Some adults teach them that love is identical to sex. Thus children can become willing, even eager sexual partners. This is nevertheless abuse." (from the interview on jitterbug) So I guess claiming that Piers Anthony promotes pedophily is quite irresponsible. Also, claiming that he advocates necrophilia and bestiality borders on moral fanatism. Soon people will come here and say that he promotes incest, muslim terrorism or rape. When it's all the contrary: most of Anthony's novels are precisely refreshing, 'cos when he touches upon such sensitive subjects, he doesn't condemns them blindly, he tries to see every aspect of it before passing judgment.(A thing some here should learn to do...) Yes, there may be some bestiality implied in the Xanth universe... but it's a fantasy world, dammit, where there are centaur, and other half-human/half-animal creatures. And also, I don't recall all the great ancient writers being called perverts, when in the greek myths Zeus took the form of a bull to seduce young ladys, thus giving birth to the Minotaur & co.

I personally feel that some mention of the possible pedophilia-type content of his books should be added in some form. It seems relevent, if only as a common mispreception. Manhatten Project 2000 05:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

If we add anything about pedophilia then we should by rights mention any illegal activity that he frequently writes about, as well as add notice of any material that is outside the bounds of a legal and conservative society to the page of any author that address the subject. As far as I can tell the original allegations have been made only by Wikipedia editors - if it's been brought up in public before then we should include it but otherwise I think it's best left alone. Anyone else agree? Graphia 03:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

It's also been discussed on Usenet as far back as 1996, though the biggest discussion on the subject took place in 2000. (Use "Piers Anthony pedophilia" as a search term)

In my expereience, some discussion of Anthony's predeliction for writing about the sexual exploits of underage girls has come up in every adult conversation I've had about his work, both in person and online, and this was true years before I'd ever even heard of Wikipedia. Any article about Anthony which does not adress this issue in some form is quite simply deficient.--12.77.10.161 06:47, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Having read most of Piers Anthony's novels, I find that he does sometimes write about pedophilia, such as in Firefly, yes there is a sexual relation involving a child of 5, but that is only one case. In Heaven Cent, the merwoman Mela tries to hide all hint of sexuality from the 9 year old boy, if you try to say that this promotes pedophilia and says that Peirs Anthony is a pedophiliac, then you might as well say that it discourages pedophilia by showing how disgusting it is.

Jomo Blurboid 26 March 06

[edit] List of potential pedophilia in Anthony novels

It seems to me that this argument is best served by bringing in data. My initial list is from memory, so please, anyone else with better information should contribute or edit my entries.

• Refugee (Bio of a Space Tyrant 1): Teenage protagonist has a sexual relationship with a girl of similar age (who is a rape victim if I remember correctly). When she dies, he fantasizes about her, and the book strongly implies that he was in reality having sex with his 12-year-old sister.
• Statesman (Bio of a Space Tyrant 5): The now aging protagonist engages in a sexual relationship with a young, functionally retarded girl.
• The Mode series: The main protagonist is a teenage rape victim who enters a romantic (and I believe sexual) relationship with a man from another dimension.
• And Eternity (Incarnations of Immortality 7): One of the protagonists, 15-yr-old rape victim, drug addict, and prostitute Vita seduces an adult judge who presided over her criminal trial.
• Centaur Aisle (Xanth 4): While 16-yr-old friends Prince Dor and Princess Irene (no relation) are roughousing in a pool, Irene's top comes off. This one seems pretty innocent to me.
• Heaven Cent (Xanth 11): Mela Merwoman, a widow, kidnaps 9-year-old Prince Dolph to be her new husband, although she doesn't plan to marry or have sex with him until he is of an appropriate age.
• The Color of Her Panties (Xanth 15): He named a book in a juvenile series this; the plot turns on finding out, in fact, the color of the underwear worn by Mela.
• Ghost: The middle-aged protagonist encounters and is later propositioned by several 13-15 year old girls sunbathing nude on a beach. He notes that society considers anyone with the physical signs of maturity capable of consent to a sexual liason. When the girls find out he's a member of the space service (looked down upon on Earth) they taunt and threaten him; the protagonist isn't sure whether the girls would really hurt him if they catch him or merely pretend subdue him and pretend-rape him. He says that such things had been known to happen and that he would be willing to submit if he knew that to be their goal.--Apascover 18:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
• The Caterpillar's Question: The main character, Jack, enters a sexual relationship with Tappy, a 13-year-old girl suffering brain damage from a airplane accident. --Apascover 07:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Just gotta refute some of these:

"The Mode series: The main protagonist is a teenage rape victim" -- not pedophilia; teenagers are not pre-pubescent; possible ephebophilia

"And Eternity (Incarnations of Immortality 7): One of the protagonists, 15-yr-old rape victim, drug addict, and prostitute" -- not pedophilia; teenagers are not pre-pubescent; possible ephebophilia

"Centaur Aisle (Xanth 4): While 16-yr-old friends Prince Dor and Princess Irene": not pedophilia; teenagers are not pre-pubescent; possible ephebophilia

"Heaven Cent (Xanth 11): Mela Merwoman, a widow, kidnaps 9-year-old Prince Dolph to be her new husband, although she doesn't plan to marry or have sex with him until he is of an appropriate age.": Thanks to your qualifier, not seeing any hint of pedophilia here.

"The Color of Her Panties (Xanth 15): He named a book in a juvenile series this; the plot turns on finding out, in fact, the color of the underwear worn by Mela.": Not seeing any hint of pedophilia here; underwear isn't sex. (Horribly awkward title though.)

"Ghost: The middle-aged protagonist encounters and is later propositioned by several 13-15 year old girls sunbathing nude on a beach.": not pedophilia; teenagers are not pre-pubescent; possible ephebophilia

"The Caterpillar's Question: The main character, Jack, enters a sexual relationship with Tappy, a 13-year-old girl": not pedophilia; teenagers are not pre-pubescent; possible ephebophilia

It's interesting that you would go to the trouble to make such a list, though. Did you enjoy making the list? Hm. 4.226.111.122 23:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The Mode series actually centers around Colene's fear of intercourse because of her rape. While she and Darius, who is from another dimension in which the age of consent is basically non-existent, do "make out," they don't have intercourse until after they are legally married on Earth (with her parents' written permission). If anything, the point is how damaging underage sex can be to the participants--she was raped in the first place because she was dating an older boy she didn't know very well. IrisWings 21:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The point is he frequently writes about people well below the age of consent engaging in sex, occasionally with adults. Perhaps ephebophilia is a more correct term in some of these cases, but not all. It's just a more accurate term, not a refutation. Manhatten Project 2000 01:10, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Below what age of consent, though? As you surely know, age of consent varies wildly from one place and time to another; even in the United States, age of consent is different in every state, ranging anywhere from 12 to 18 (with 16 being the most common). Some places in the world don't have an age of consent; ages of consent were different in the past and will almost certainly be different in the future. And that's only taking our own world into account -- when you're dealing with fantasy and science fiction, it's foolish to assume that completely different planets, alternate realities, and magical fantasy worlds all have the same age of consent as your home state. Also, in many/most places (but not in other places such as the UK), people under the age of consent can have sex with other people of a similar age, just not with older people. 4.89.247.62 15:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Well in Florida where he lives, it's 16/18. Most people consider 16 to be the line +/- 2 years, although it obviously varies person to person, culture to culture. I personally find it really odd that a 70 year old man considers it normal to frequently write about the sexual exploits of teenaged girls or younger, and I think more people than not agree. Age of consent doesn't really need to be mentioned, per say. Manhatten Project 2000 04:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Can I just say that this is pure foolishness? Just as someone wirtes something, does by no means make them what they write. Take King. Just because death and killing are in near all the stories he's writen, does that mean that he is a psychopathic murderer? Should the idea be any different than Peirs' and "Pedophilia" than with King and Killing? 216.56.38.130 12:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

However, you would mention that King commonly writes about killing, no? Regardless of how you think about it, adolescents engaging in sex acts are a common theme in his work. I'm not saying the article should read something like, "Piers often writes about teenagers having sex and running aground naked. Obviously he is a sick individual." I'm saying it should be mentioned, as it is an extremely common element in his stories. Perhaps as criticism. Manhatten Project 2000 06:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm flabberghasted this ridiculous allegation is still in print on wikipedia frankly, you do seem to have missed the point of Mr Anthony's remarkably temporate reply. If you can not see sense at least move it to a point where it attaches to a discussion of the novels. I will do this. 62.25.109.196 15:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

An anonymous editor wrote quite a bit of bio info that isn't sourced. It's a little bit POV and needs a tiny bit of polishing, so I've added clean-up tag. I wonder about the structure of the article now. "Early life and career" looks kind of strange where it sits now. Dan Lovejoy 03:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The information is straight from the the two autobiographies. I've read both.151.205.180.171 18:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Great! Please cite them. Dan Lovejoy 18:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

How does one create a link to an autobiography that's only available in offline format?151.205.180.171 18:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

You don't create a link, just a citation, like this.

Also, what's a Preditor? Dan Lovejoy 03:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Preditors and Editors ("Preditor" is a play on the words "predator" and "editor")is an organization dedicated to protecting writers from unscrupolous agents/publishers/contracts/etc. Their main purpose is to expose scams that exploit writers.151.205.180.171 18:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, OK. I don't think this word is appropriate in this context as it is a neologism and readers are unlikely to understand it.

Thanks for your contributions! Dan Lovejoy 18:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

No, it's not a neologism. It's the actual name of the organization. http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubabout.htm151.205.180.171 18:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, see my changes and let me know what you think about it. Dan Lovejoy 20:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biography?

I think the article has too much biographical information and not enough author treatment. Yes, we should get the outline, he attended college here, then army there, then marriage, then children--but I'm not sure going much further is useful, and I think what should be in its place is some explication about his writing. When I read about a physicist, for example, I expect to read more about what he or she discovered in science than about their personal life, the same is true of authors. I vote: prune the biography and tell us about Piers Anthony, THE AUTHOR. Anyone else with me? --Fuhghettaboutit 00:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. I'll try to play around with it a little, but it's going to be rough and I doubt it'll be appropriately objective on a first pass.--Apascover 07:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Upon further consideration, let me revise my view -- I think that the biographical info in the article needs to be cleaned up and reundancy eliminated, but I think it doesn't really need a pruning. In my opinion there isn't a lot of extraneous material there and a lot of bio info is particularly appropriate for a writer like Anthony who typically includes long, detailed biographical author's notes in many books.--Apascover 19:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added book number

I know this was a little pointless, but I added the number of books he has written.

[edit] Xanth Family Trees collaborator

Would it be appropriate to have a little tiny mini-bio of the other author of the Xanth Family Trees on the Xanth page? (I know her.)

Lady Aleena 09:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Piers' reaction to his Wikipedia entry

I actually thought this was interesting, both to see how he views it, and for his corrections/criticisms. Someone who is more skilled with their wiki-fu than I may wish to incorperate some of it into the article. (posted here because it takes a while to sift through his behemoths of newsletters, entertaining though they may be) --Kuhan 05:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"I looked up my entry in Wikipedia. For folk slow on the uptake, as I am, Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia whose entries are made by anyone who walks in off the street, and can be changed by anyone. So utter accuracy is not to be expected, and we don't see it here. Still, it's about as good as professional bios are, and will probably improve as further corrections are made. Errors are approximate, rather than malicious. The version I saw in May 5, 2006, said that I won the Special Recognition for Service to Writers award from Preditors and Editors for my ongoing survey of electronic publishers. No; the P&E recognition was for my Hipiers site, given before I started the survey. It was EPIC that gave an award for the survey. Wikipedia said I was a venture capitalist, investing in a publishing house since bought out by Random House. No; I invested as an angel capitalist in Xlibris, and am now a co-owner along with Random House. One of the anomalies of this situation is that I generally see eye to eye with Random House on this. Who would have thunk it? Wikipedia says I also invested in vegetarian foodstuffs related technologies. I have not. It says I believe I was blacklisted at one time. That makes it seem as if I imagined it. Yeah? I was blacklisted by Ballantine Books for six years because I complained and got a lawyer when they cheated me. They badmouthed me to maybe half a dozen other publishers so that I could not sell to them either. Then Random House took over Ballantine and the blacklist was lifted—they knew the real story—and I became a bestseller there, in its Del Rey imprint. Most, perhaps all, of the blacklisters are long since out of business or in greatly reduced circumstances, while I prosper."

Newsletter Entry

[edit] Proposed works in the Bibliography

These belong on fan pages, not on a Wikipedia entry... —XSG 15:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American or British Author?

Piers was born in England. But he moved to America as a child, and began writing books 20 years after living in Florida. My librarian says that makes him not an American author. ? --Can Not 22:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Isaac Asimov is generally considered to be a “Russian-born American author” and suspect similar wording should be used for Piers. His web site, www.hipiers.com/06june.html, says "I left England when I was four years old and never went back." Marc Kupper (talk) (contribs) 18:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)