Talk:Pierre Boulez

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Contents 1 Murail on Boulez 2 Pronunciation 3 Conducting 4 This article needs work 5 and I have tried to do some work 6 On Boulez, Cage, and Aleatory Music 7 Boulez's valet partner? 8 Gontier pictures link, linkspam?

[edit] Murail on Boulez

I would love if someone could/would discuss this in the article:

"What you have in serial music, of course, is a dialectical discourse; a statement is made, then negated; then the product of those is negated. Boulez, in his early aesthetic writings, is frankly Marxist in describing this."

http://www.sospeso.com/contents/articles/murail_p2.html

I don't know enough about Boulez, and I've never heard his music, so I won't find it anytime soon...Hyacinth 19:31, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Hyacinth: Could you say more of what interests you about the comment? In my opinion, Tristan Murail, who is a younger composer that reacted against the musical ideas of Boulez and others, is trying to paint Boulez and the Darmstadt composers as being close-minded and tied to the ideals of the former Eastern Bloc. Murail says this in part because he felt restricted by the popularity of the serial method, which Murail rejected, and partly because there was a tendency to view atonal music (what Murail might call music without teleology) as music of freedom- music against totalitarian regimes. The Marx comment undermines this idea. In certain Boulez writings, he does have a certain dialectal, binary sort of way of looking at sides to cultural clashes.

Riceklang 19:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Perhaps a note about pronunciation is in order. I initially assumed that his name was pronounced "bou-lay", but I've heard radio announcers (who have otherwise impeccable pronunciation with foreign names and words) say "bou-lezz". Sure enough, googling for "pierre boulez pronunciation" turns up some authoritative-looking pages that say it's "bou-lezz", not "bou-lay".

I don't know if Wikipedia has a standard way of writing the pronunciation of potentially confusing words/names, but if anybody else is as easily confused as me, this might be helpful to note.  :-)

• This might be a good idea; for a while, after I bought my first Boulez conducts Wagner LP in the 80s, I thought too that Boulez rhymed with "voulez". The best way to do this would probably be to add a version of his name in IPA. Like this, I think: [bu:lɛs]David Sneek 09:03, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I believe the name should rhyme with "voulez" (being French), but that Pierre insists it does not. Either that or it is not French (my name is mispronounced Russian and my mother's last name, Sather, is mispronounced by her immediate family as Saather rather than Say-ther). Hyacinth 00:37, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

David: Ah, great thinking to use the IPA! Looks close. But according to the IPA article, [bu:lɛs] looks like it would be pronounced 'bou-less', which is not how I've heard it said. I thought the final consonant was voiced: [bu:lɛz].

Also, it might be useful to also have the obvious-but-wrong pronunciation next to it, for comparison, as in: "[bu:lɛz], not [bu:leɪ]".

I don't know the best place for it. The page for Goedel puts it in brackets after the name, but before his dates. The page for El Cid puts it later in the article, surrounded by //. (I have no particular preference.) Comments?

I have a CD on which French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard, who is kind of a Boulez specialist, gives an introduction to the first Sonata, and I just listened carefully to his pronunciation: to me the final consonant does sound like a Voiceless alveolar fricative ;-) Googling to make sure I found this, with the correct pronunciation on mp3, but unfortunately the computer I'm working on right now has no sound. Maybe you or Hyacinth can check if it's voiced or not there. About the place: if we're just going to put the IPA in there, I think we should put it right behind the name, if we want to explain that final "-ez" in French is usually pronounced "ay", but Boulez is the exception, the end of the first paragraph seems best. David

That page says it's "boo-lehz", which to me means voiced (like "z", and especially because they say earlier on the page to pronounce "z" as "z"). But right above it is "behr-lee-ohz", which I've always known as ending with an unvoiced consonant. (And the recording for Berlioz definitely sounds like an unvoiced final consonant to me -- behr-lee-ohsss.) The recording for Boulez ... wow. I put it on loop and listened to it for a while, and I really can't tell if he's trying to voice it or not. It kind of starts out sounding sharper like a "z", but then ends more muffled like "ss". To my ears, it sounds like he's saying "boo-lezss".

So, bonus points for finding a recording, but now I'm as confused as ever. Perhaps we should just call Pierre on the phone and ask him to say his name.  :-)

You're right [zss] seems closest, which is a bit confusing... So I asked for help.

Unfortunately, the speaker in that clip is not French. I am fairly sure that the French pronunciation is [bu'lɛz]. It is the same pronunciation that is given in the [Encyclopedia], which seems to be pretty accurate with most other names. I don't know of any French word or name that has a "z" that is pronounced "s". Saying that it is a mixture of z and s seems to me to be overcomplicating things. Of course, in English, we use the long u, represented with a colon, so we could write it [bu:'lɛz], as suggested above. I'll go ahead and put up a pronunciation, but I'm not French either, so if anyone knows better, please change it. Lesgles 12:30 16 Dec. 2004

Thanks, now we can move on to another syllable!

Hello, Im french, stumbled upon help. and it comes naturally to me : "boo-lehzzz" (dunno the number of z's if it's important for IPA pronunciation) . The mp3s you listen at are wrong because I recognize the english accent spoken with. Sorry! ;-) To conclude, and IMHO the final consonant is a Voiced alveolar fricative. this is quite byzarre because I do not agree with the exceptions like, by example : "Darius Milhaud" it is not "yo!" (double-"l") but rather "lo" (simple-"l" as here for Milhaud) etc. etc. Conruyt 20:44, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

All of you who doubt the pronunciation of Boulez, bear in mind the precedent set by Hector Berlioz!

For what it's worth: the third movement of Berio's Sinfonia requires a speaker to thank the conductor, and on the Boulez recording, the speaker thanks "Boul-ez," not "Boul-ay." Just to add further evidence...Cyrus Sixguns

I have a recording of Boulez' "Glenn Gould Prize Concert" (24/11/2002) taken from the CBC radio broadcast of it, in which the host Eric Friesen calls him Boul/ez/ many times, though just once while speaking French he said Boul/ey/ (I think that was a slip). The then governer general Adrienne Clarkson also spoke, calling him Boul/ez/. Boulez also spoke (and conducted) at this concert (he did not say his own name). - Rainwarrior 19:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

From a native speaker of French and lifelong inhabitant of France: I have never heard Boulez's name pronounced [bule], always [bulɛz]. S.Camus 13:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conducting

I've added some features regarding Boulez conducting in the end of this biography.83.249.63.75 11:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs work

I've been going through and wikifying things, and also trying to just clean up. I found a lot of subjective material in the article, which I tried to improve. However, there was a small, difficult to comprehend, and a little subjective paragraph that I didn't know what do with, so I deleted it. Here it is, in case anyone wants to help try to fix it.

"Boulez' increasing awareness through the fifties that almost none of his composer colleagues could at the time understand the depth of musical structure to which he aspired led him to withdraw increasingly from exchange with other composers and perhaps contributed also to his increasing interest in conducting." Smedley Hirkum 05:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

That's definitely too subjective. To say he was "aware that none of his colleagues could understand" what he was trying to do is a bit pretentious. It isn't that Boulez wouldn't have put it that way at the time (i.e. his famous quote from Eventuellement), but as a paragraph in a biography it comes off as a very biased.

It is true though that he had a great deal of contact with other composers in the early fiftes which he did withdraw from as his own goals became more focused. I wouldn't say the others failed to understand him, but rather that he had a strong difference of opinion on the direction art should take (which would remove this bias). Boulez did seem to be worried about others understanding him, though: why else write "Stocktakings", or "On Music Today"? I can come up with more details about this stuff later once I get some reading out of the way. Rainwarrior 20:50, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] and I have tried to do some work

I have attempted to flesh out some of the history and ideas that people have alluded to in this article. There are a few errors- if you take issue with anything, I'd first refer you to the Paul Griffiths text on music after World War II, which summarizes many issues discussed here well, and also in detail. There are a few instances where I removed things, and I'll discuss those here:

"From the 1950s he experimented with aleatoric music (incorporating the use of chance), and struck up a correspondence with John Cage. However, the two fell out over differing views of what the function of using chance was."

Boulez never actually wrote any aleatoric music. Aleatoric music is when a performer is presented with a series of options, and randomly asked to choose between them. For example, "do A, B, or C in any order, for 30 seconds." I don't know of any Boulez scores that do that. John Cage, as far as I know, didn't work with aleatoric music, either. John Cage did work with with what he called chance music, or indeterminate music. Chance music is when the composer's decisions are made by chance, as in his "Music of Changes", where he decided each pitch and duration by tossing coins and consulting the "I Ching". Interderminate music is where musical events happen unintended, for example in his "4'33"", in which the performer is tacet, and the piece is the unintended sounds made by the audience during the composition.

I've read the Boulez/Cage correspondance, and what they were discussing at the time was using process to make compositional decisions. They were in disagreement, but until both of them fleshed out their ideas a little more, they didn't realize it. Cage wanted the process to remove choice from the composer, and Boulez wanted the process to create something ultra-rational. But at the time Cage was doing "Sonatas and Interludes" for Prepared Piano and Boulez was doing his "Second Sonata", and they didn't see that they were going in opposite directions.

The next part I removed is:

"Despite teaching at Darmstadt for several years, Boulez quickly distanced himself from the severe rigidity of many composers associated with the post-war serialist movement. His letters to his friend and colleague Karlheinz Stockhausen, which have so far only received fragmentary publication, reveal that long before his German contemporary--as early as 1953-- Boulez was advocating an end to literal serial determination of every element in musical composition. He advocated instead a more fluid approach to composing which would allow several types of organisation and structure to interact freely to create more naturally musical and also more ambiguous kinds of form and expression."

I tried to flesh this out and explain more of what is being said. The general tendency of what is said here is true- Boulez did distance himself from total serialization. However, I tried to restate this for a few reasons: First, total serialization isn't so rigid as it sounds, and nor did Boulez speak so forcefully against it. Serialization has a reputation for being mathematica and inflexible, because it sounds rigorous in some way, but the composer still decides what the pitches and durations are, what order to put them in, and when they happen, which isn't that much different than any other piece. In fact, Boulez has continued to use some variation on these techniques, but with 'loopholes', so that he can fluidly stop and start doing something else. My point is that it was more like a course correction than that Boulez did a 180 degree turn and wrote different music. I think his writing about changing courses might even be before the Stockhausen correspondance, in 1952, when he was finishing "Structures I". I hope that I did justice to this idea in the way that I fleshed it out, but please comment on this if you feel this is not the case.

Riceklang 19:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Boulez, Cage, and Aleatory Music

There are quite a few scores by Boulez in which the performer is given different options to choose from. In the first half of Domaines the clarinet part is on six pages and the soloist can decide in what order they will be played, in the second half the conductor has to make the choices. The middle movement of the third piano sonata consists of short fragments ("points" and "blocks") connected by lots of small arrows, each indicating a possible trajectory the pianist can take through the score. Other aleatoric pieces are Eclat and Rituel. David Sneek 08:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

David: I was speaking a little too generally. Having sections of music and not setting the order of them is not aleatory, but rather is mobile form. For example, in Karel Husa's "Music for Prague 1968", there are sections where Husa writes just a cell of music, for example, C#, D, F#, and says "play in any order, as fast as possible". This is a classic example of aleatory music- the end result is usually a cluster of a flurry of notes. The "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" of Penderecki is another good example of aleatory music.

On the other hand, Stockhausen touched off this idea of having no set order to movements or sections of music in one of his piano stücken (I can't remember which one it is off the top of my head). This became known as mobile form (not mobile, as in 'able to move about', but rather those little things that dangle varied objects above a baby). That score is set up the same way that the third piano sonata of Boulez is, with arrows connecting different blocks of music (floating systems).

Scores of Boulez from the 70's like Eclat and Rituel are harder to find. Have you looked at them? Do they contain choices as in the Husa piece or are they the same as the Third Sonata?

Riceklang 17:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Riceklang - I'm not sure you are correct in the way you define aleatoric music. It was Boulez himself who advocated the word aleatory - notably in the article Alea from 1957, which discussed the aesthetics of the third sonata - and he certainly intended it to refer to "controlled chance", where a performer can choose between different possibilities that have all been foreseen by the composer. David Sneek 18:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

David: I looked at some of the literature; the Boulez article, the Griffiths "Modern Music" and the Havard Dictionary of Music-

In the Boulez article, he's talking about things that are going on as he is writing. You're certainly right that he does intend it to mean 'controlled chance', but it doesn't feel to me like he's trying to define words and create precedents of nomenclature so much as talk about what is going on right then. In other words, I don't know if we can say from this that he advocates the use of that term.

It seems like we're in conflict over details of nomenclature: The HDM lists "aleatory music" as an article in the sense you're using the word- anything that has to do with chance, indeterminacy, open form or mobile form, etc. However, this article also talks specifically about "[works], which consist... of a number of separate segments that have to be 'assembled' by the players. The terms open form and mobile form have since been applied to works of this type." (pg. 28-29).

Also, the other literature agrees with you in that the broadest category of these kinds of techniques is called aleatory. However, there are subcategories of this aleatory music, which include mobile form/open form (which refers to the specific phenomenon we're discussing- segments of composed music that can be played in various orderings), indeterminate music, and chance music (separate techniques that I described above). I'm not able to find literature to back me up in that within this broad category of aleatory, that the sort of choice I described with the Husa piece is 'aleatory'. However, I know that this distinction has been made to me in talks that I have had with composers, and in music history classes, things like that. This does seem important to me on some level, because what Boulez was doing in the 70's was really far away from what was going on with John Cage or Earle Brown in the 70's, and also there are significant differences between these various subcategories of aleatory, would you agree?

It seems best to me to use mobile form, rather than aleatory, because it's seems like a term tailor made for what is going on in the Third Sonata, but I can see some reason to inflect an article with the language of Boulez's important article on the subject, and to use aleatory for that reason.

What is it that you would suggest for the article? Are you trying to tie it in with other wikipedia articles, on aleatory music, for example? It seems easy enough to tie the deleted section on Cage back into the article, especially in the paragraph on Boulez's experimentation, since it mentions Rituel, and the Third Piano Sonata. I'll reinsert this material, but wait for a response from you beforehand, for example, perhaps I should write something more specific than that aleatory music 'incorperates the use of chance', since chance is also one of those subcategories of the broader 'aleatory'?

Riceklang 20:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Riceklang - Mobile form certainly seems the perfect term to describe a composition like Domaines. But I'm not completely sure it is exactly right for the third sonata; in that piece the fragments are often so short that it's perhaps more the musical syntax, rather than the form, that changes with every performance. Anyway, like you said, these are details of nomenclatura and it's true that the meaning of these words is hardly fixed (appropriate, I suppose, in this context). So let me try to write a few sentences for the article instead:

From the 1950s, beginning with the third piano sonata, Boulez experimented with what he called "controlled chance" and he developed his views on aleatoric music in the articles Aléa and Sonate, que me veux-tu?. His use of chance, which he would later employ in compositions like Eclat, Domaines and Rituel, is very different from that in the works of for example John Cage. While in Cage's music the performers are often given the freedom to improvise and create completely new sounds, in works by Boulez they only get to choose between possibilities that have been written out in detail by the composer - a method that is often described as mobile form.

Would this be acceptable to you? This way it's clear that other views and uses of aleatory music exist. David Sneek 21:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

David: That seems fine to me; by all means, go to it.

Riceklang 22:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I was away for a while, but now I've added it. I also removed "Boulez had never been a composer of electronic music", because he did in fact compose a few electronic works in the 50s (Poésie pour pouvoir and the soundtrack for Symphonie mécanique, both withdrawn). David Sneek 07:48, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Boulez's valet partner?

At the very end of the "Life and Music" section, irrelevant to the rest of the paragraph is written: His German partner, Hans Messmer, is traditionally introduced as Boulez's "valet".

Does this assert that Boulez is a homosexual? And if it does, why is not done in clearer language? Furthermore, why is it not in some other (more releavant) paragraph?

In my own readings I have found the occasional speculation on his sexuality, but I have yet to see any definitive assertions on it. The sentence quotes a source which I have not read (but will look up). Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

(I notice as well that we have placed him in the "Gay musicians" category. Do we actually have more evidence than this one source?)

Rainwarrior 13:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

After checking the source, it turns out that it was misquoted, and its meaning has been severaly distorted. If anything can be said about Pierre Boulez's sexuality it is that he has never married. If he is heterosexual or homosexual, there is no known evidence of either. I'll leave it to someone else's discretion whether these facts are worth mentioning, but for now I am removing the "Gay musicians" categorization, and the false information it is based on. Rainwarrior 23:07, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Just so you can see what I mean, here's the actual quote: "New York readied itself for the aloof, balding Boulez, who kissed no-one and kep inscrutably apart. 'The Iceman Conducteth,' warned the New York Times. ... 'I don't think he has any close friends,' said one of his oldest associates. He never married. He had an Austrian companion, Hans Messmer, who occupied a separate aparetment in the same block and was sometimes introduced as his valet." (Lebrecht, Norman. The Maestro Myth. Simon and Schuster, 1991. Page 188.) This passage is an essay on the "aloofness" of Boulez, not an assertion of homosexuality. Rainwarrior 23:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I restored the text, and changed the wording from "German lover" to "Austrian companion", to match the source. Readers can make of it what they wish. -Will Beback 00:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, I believe that this sentence is irrelevant, and furthermore the quotation is still quite incorrect. "His Austrian companion, Hans Messmer, is traditionally introduced as Boulez's "valet"." is still different from the source, and makes a different suggestion. I quoted above its context and it can be seen in that context that the point of making that statement is to show how Mr. Boulez has had very few close friends.

If you insist on quoting from this source, the sentence "I don't think he has any close friends." would be infinitely more appropriate, as it carries that spirit (and the letter) of its original intent quite clearly. Instead you have taken this particular quote and removed it from its context (in addition to altering it), perhaps to deliberately insinuate something about Mr. Boulez's sexuality, on which there is really not enough information to warrant any such insinuation.

If you want to make a paragraph about his personal life (which should belong to a separate paragraph than the one this quote is currently attached to), the actual intended message of the source is fairly accurate, from the other biographical information I have read about the man: It is true that he has never married. It is also true that many find him "distant", but you really must stop insisting on using this particular misquotation from an already rather liberally colourful source as "The Maestro Myth", and find something from an actual Pierre Boulez Biography, of which there are several.

I would appreciate some input on this from others. Rainwarrior 05:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Joan Peyser, in her book Boulez: Composer, Conductor, Enigma, tried to dig into the personal life of Boulez. According to her Messner (rather than "Messmer") is employed as a valet and she does not suggest he means more than that to Boulez, even though she is very gossipy. David Sneek 20:04, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Rainwarrior- it seems like a tenuous statement. I understand the drive to create scholarship that documents the achievements of people of the LGB community, and this might be a sort of justification for writing a comment like this in an article. However, based on this evidence, I don't think that we have grounds enough to make the statement, and bad scholarship doesn't help anyone. Riceklang 07:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Just what is meant by the word "companion"? -Will Beback 00:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Companion:

1 : one that accompanies another : COMRADE, ASSOCIATE; also : one that keeps company with another

2 obsolete : RASCAL

3 a : one that is closely connected with something similar b : one employed to live with and serve another

I don't think that in the above context it is possible to read much more into it. David Sneek 10:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• http://www.glbtq.com/arts/bussotti_s.html : "Bussotti's flamboyant behavior evidently created discomfort in Darmstadt among closeted gay composers such as Boulez and straight ones such as Stockhausen and Luigi Nono." Hyacinth 10:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not really a reputable source, but even if it was, consider what it says. "Closeted gay" means that there is no proof. If it was proven, he would not be in the closet. Boulez has never publically stated that he is homosexual, and no man has publically claimed to have had a homosexual relationship with him. Because one writer (who is not even writing directly about Boulez, but of Busotti) suspects he is a "closet homosexual" does not make Boulez worthy of appearing on the "Gay musicians" list. If this list is important to you, you should want it to be accurate and reputable, which it cannot be if you insist on including "closet" gays on the list. (And since you seem to be seriously interested in this list, I might point out that John Cage hasn't been added to it, though unlike Boulez, his homosexuality is well documented. See Merce Cunningham.) Rainwarrior 16:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is glbtq.com not really a reputable source? We have one source (+[1]) stating that he is gay. Do you have any sources to dispute this claim?

Actually, being closeted means attempting to keep a secret. It has nothing to do with proof. I encourage you to read the Wikipedia article, the closet, and related topics (such as outing, which is relevant in this case).

I invite you to edit the John Cage article's categories appropriately. However, be prepared to verify this (and, if your standards are to prevail, make sure you use more than an article about Merce Cunningham).

Hyacinth 11:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the article, not the particular website. An article about someone else that mentions Boulez in passing isn't really a reliable source for information about Boulez's sexuality. If it was known, it would appear in biographical sources. (I think it's notable that glbtq.com does not actually have an article on Boulez.) My standard isn't "multiple articles", it is that the assertion must be made directly, and with supporting argument. Can you see that there is no argument about Boulez in the Busotti article? It is not reputable as a source for Boulez's sexuality because it contains no argument for it, only an assertion. This is what bothered me about the original statement in the Wikipedia article. If the man is known to be gay, it should say it outright, and it should have the details which make it tangible.

And, yes, I wasn't using the word "closeted" accurately. I was thinking of this specific case, and not the more general case of all closeted homosexuals. I don't think this affects my specific argument, however. Rainwarrior 17:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

All good points. Hyacinth 08:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad we have an understanding then. I don't know if this is the case, but sorry if I come across as a bit of a jerk at times. I often have tone-of-voice problems when using the internet; my choice of words has more than once gotten me into trouble that would not have occured had it been a face-to-face conversation. Rainwarrior 20:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

No problem. You commented on the content and not on me. You responded reasonably and with reason to my arguments. I hope to find a better source someday, but Boulez obviously has a big closet. Hyacinth 09:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gontier pictures link, linkspam?

This link was removed with the comment "linkspam". How is a collection of pictures of the composer linkspam? The page isn't selling anything, and the pictures are great. What's the problem? - Rainwarrior 18:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

There are two problems here. The first is that this was added by an anon IP, so we cannot be sure that it was added by someone unconnected with the site. As I'm sure you know, people cannot link to their own external material here. The second is that this was added to the "References" section, but is not cited in the article body. The bibliographic citation should go in a "Further reading" section, be used to cite article material, or just be deleted, while the external link should go in "External links" once we're sure the site's creator wasn't responsible for adding it. CRCulver 19:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not the person who originally added the link is affiliated with the website, I have vouched for the link's validity, so that isn't an issue any more. (Unless you think I am affiliated with it... but maybe you are affiliated with a competitor? Who knows? This isn't a rule anyway, it's just a guideline. If it was a rule there would have to be a better way to determine who is afilliated with what.) I didn't notice it was in the wrong place. I'll move it to the external links section where it belongs. - Rainwarrior 19:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)