Talk:Phyllis Chesler

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Contents 1 No Personal Attacks 2 Criticism 3 Page numbers 4 The disputed sentence 4.1 Arab Jews from India 5 Aung San Suu

[edit] No Personal Attacks

I have tried Google. Thanks. --Tbeatty 22:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

I can't find this in the link that was given:

Finkelstein has drawn attention to factual errors in the book, including Chesler's reference to "Arab land such as ... India" and her description of Aung San Suu Kyi as a Muslim intellectual.[1]

If it's there, can you quote the sentence and say where it was published other than on his own website? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I don't have the book with me right now, but I'll add this tomorrow. CJCurrie 02:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I've also removed this:

The book that has been heavily criticized by commentators such as Norman Finkelstein.

Can you please actually list some notable, published criticisms of the book? Amazon reviews don't count, by the way. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page numbers

CJ, thanks for finding the Finkelstein reference. Is the quote on page 34, and the material about the errors on page 51? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. (And thank you for correcting the footnoting style.) CJCurrie 22:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The disputed sentence

There's actually a second reference to India as an Arab county in The New Anti-Semitism, and it's far more egregious than the one cited. I'll see if I can find it. CJCurrie 21:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Which one does Finkelstein reference? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

He references both. CJCurrie 22:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

CJCurrie, I found one other sentence where it's clear she doesn't believe India is an Arab country: "Jews from Arab lands (and from India and Iran) have increasingly become more dominant ... in Israel." (p. 167) I think the first sentence, the one I quoted in the article, was just a question of bad punctuation: she listed the Arab countries and then added "and India," but should have punctuated it differently to make the separation clearer. I can't find the reference to the Buddist. Do you know what page that's on? It would also be helpful to know exactly what Finkelstein said. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't the other reference I was referring to: there's yet another section in The New Anti-Semitism where Chesler specifically mentions Israel as taking in "Arab Jews from India after 1948" (or words to that effect). She also mentions ASSK in a list of "Muslim feminist intellectuals" she's defended.

I don't believe the first reference is a case of bad punctuation: Chesler clearly intended to provide a list of Arab countries. And whether or not Chesler believes India to be an Arab country isn't the point at issue. For our purposes, the important thing is that she describes India as an Arab country on two separate occasions.

To your last point, I strongly recommend that you read the first section of Finkelstien's book. CJCurrie 22:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you quote exactly what Finkelstein said, if you have the book? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately (and for the second time in a week), I don't physically have the book with me at present. I'll get back to you tomorrow. CJCurrie 22:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

"Arab Jews" did live in India; the Baghdadi Jews, to be specific, and Israel did take them in after 1948. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

But they weren't refugees, were they? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe India's Jews were forced or pressured to leave the country after 1948? CJCurrie 22:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, they were refugees from Arab lands; that's why they fled to India. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I mean that they weren't refugees from India (which might be how Chesler describes them -- I can't remember the exact wording offhand). CJCurrie 22:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this is picking apart the way she writes, rather than being proper criticism. Israel taking in Arab Jews from India is clear to me, and the second reference shows she knows India isn't an Arab country. So we're left only with the first reference, which was an ambiguous use of the serial comma, which happens a lot. She'd have been better making it two sentences, that's all. It beggars belief that someone with a PhD who has lived in Kabul, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and who to some extent specializes in Middle East issues, would believe that India is an Arab country, and we can't make that assertion based on a misplaced serial comma. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we can assume it was a misplaced comma. I agree that Chesler probably realizes India is not an Arab country, and it's likely that she simply missed this error in proofreading; all the same, it certainly reads like a factual error. CJCurrie 23:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It's quite clear that Chesler knows that India is not an Arab country, and that Finkelstein is just doing tendentious nit-picking, rather than making serious criticism. The actual statements from the book are far more relevant to the page than Finkelstein's comments - if anything, it is Finkelestein's comments that belong in a footnote. Would you prefer to organize it that way? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Finkelstein criticizes the general content of The New Anti-Semitism as well as its factual errors. There's no reason not to list him in the main body of the article.

Per yesterday's request, here are the specific "factual error" criticisms mentioned by Finkelstein:

(i) p. 113 - "Arab lands such as ... India" (The "ambiguous serial comma" defence would only make sense if there were another "and" in front of "Morocco".)

(ii) p. 174 - "Arab and Muslim intellectuals, artists, political dissidents" like "Aung Sun Suu Kyi" (there's ambiguity on this one; Chesler clearly includes ASSK in a list of Arab/Muslim intellectuals.)

(iii) p. 228 - "If Israel is a racist apartheid country, why did it absorb dark- and olive-skinned Arab Jews from India [...]" (It's possible that Chesler had the Baghdadi Jewish community in mind when she wrote this, although she doesn't give any indication. Finkelstein could have added that Chesler also mentioned Arab Jews from Iran and Afghanistan in the same sentence.)

I'm quite certain that Chesler realizes India isn't an Arab country, and she may also realize that ASSK is a Buddhist. The point in highlighting these errors may have been to demonstrate that the passages in question, like so much else in the book, were not especially well thought out. CJCurrie 03:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, as has been noted already, Arab Jews did indeed come from India, and Chesler clearly knows that India is not an Arab country. So what do these "errors" boil down to? As I said above, tendentious nit-picking. Yes, the book could have used one last copyedit; frankly, the whole tone of the book is far too breathless for my liking. However, Finkelstein's "factual error" criticisms are just silly. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that NF went a bit over-the-top in his criticisms, though I also think Chesler deserved at least some of it. Anyway, we've more-or-less reached equilibrium here. CJCurrie 03:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arab Jews from India

You know there are actually Arab Jews from India -- they're called the Baghdadi Jewish community. See Judaism in India and Baghdadi Jews. Did anyone ever think to check this before accusing Chesler? AnonMoos 21:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

We've been through this already. Chesler didn't just reference "Arab Jews from India"; she also mentioned "Arab Jews from Afghanistan". It's possible she was thinking of Baghdadi Jews in the first instance; the second suggests a greater likelihood that she made a mistake. CJCurrie 00:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aung San Suu

CJ, on which page is the thing about the above in Chesler's book. I think we should check it out for ourselves in case it's just another editing error. I've looked but I can't find it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It's on p. 174, and it's crystal clear: Chesler includes ASSK in a list of Muslim intellectuals. Btw, I don't think we should assume the other mistake was an editing error. CJCurrie 07:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

CJC, is it necessary for you always to revert and change things, back and forth, as soon as someone makes an edit to a page on your watchlist? It makes for an unpleasant editing experience. Thank you for the page number. I'll look it up. The other thing was clearly a writing/editing error. If these are the only errors she made in a book of that length, that's excellent work, and it makes us look cheap to say otherwise. Count up all the edits you have made at Wikipedia. How many factual and editing errors could we find if we were to pore through them? (Mine too.) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that "Arab lands such as ... India" was an editing error, although a writing error seems more plausible. CJCurrie 07:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)