Talk:Phonology
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Some of the wording on this page seems queer. For example, there is a line which reads that phonology not only studies phonemic distinction but also how "sounds alternate, for instance the /p/ in English." Perhaps the author intends to refer to the concept of non-distinctive features. In that case, the paragraph in question is not introducing another aspect of phonology, only restating and example of what was cited above, that /p/ can be aspirated or not, but that that feature is not necessarily distinctive. Perhaps it should be mentioned more clearly that each language considers a set of phonetic features to be distinctive, and uses those to differentiate phonemes. In any case, I believe that clarity is lacking and I would love to help with this page if I can. I have a few texts on Phonology so I could perhaps prepare a section on features and feature bundles as a way of describing phonetics. Then, I believe, some morphological concepts will have to be mentioned in order to give a clear idea of what a phoneme is. Also, it struck me that there is no mention of how Phonetics or Phonology relate to the other modules of the grammar (Morphology, Syntax, etc.) nor how they relate to the grammar itself. Joshua Crowgey 12:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
But I'd say in English 'August' (name) and 'August' (month) are both ['O g@st], unlike 'result' (noun) ['ri z@lt] vs. 'result' (verb) [rI 'zVlt] where the stress accent positiin is significative. And then, those suprasegmental features are redundant in fact in English, as the change of stress usually implies a change in the quality of the involved vowels. -- Perique des Palottes
- Exactly, and there are lots and lots of these; "'record" (noun) vs. "re'cord" (verb), "'progress" (noun) vs. "pro'gress" (verb), etc. You can't say that there "are only few minimal pairs". --Gabbe 18:21 Jan 4, 2003 (UTC)
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- My english dictionary gives only one pronunciation for all meanings of result: [rI 'zVlt]. But you're right, there are plenty: polish/ Polish. Reading / reading. wound (vb) / wound (noun) -- Tarquin 18:27 Jan 4, 2003 (UTC)
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- This is a complicated and and controversial issue. If you write down phonetic transcriptions of some of these examples, you'll see that they are not even close to being minimal pairs. E.g., "record" the noun has unaspirated k (or x) followed by unrounded syllabic r, while "record" the verb has aspirated k followed by o. And there are other differences. But what does it matter whether there are minimal pairs? For a generative phonologist, at any rate, what counts is whether the stress is predictable. And even that is unclear for English. In the referenced book, Chomsky and Halle argue that it is, but I doubt many phonologists agree with them. GregLee 01:30, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Linguistics used to say:
- In a second layer--in phonology--the smallest elements (phonemes) which may differentiate the meaning of word forms are identified and studied. Phonology also includes the study of larger units such as syllables and phonological words and phrases, with their stress and intonation.
I don't know if anyone wants to integrate this. --Ryguasu 23:46 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] OT
Shouldn't we include a little on OT and maybe put a link? 4.29.217.108 14:22, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Oral Metaphor Construct
This needs to be here somewhere.
Hardly. How this relates to phonology is opaque at best. It does little to address concerns that interest phonologists. In fact, it isn't even very good. You provide no examples (due to time constraints; although you do tend to engage in meaningless blather). It's barely even readable. Do you have a model? If so, what are its predictions. Moreover, I would be hard-pressed to believe that you are the FIRST individual to posit the metaphor as a distinct unit. How does one go about doing linguistics with OMC? I think I'll hold off on citing your CD until then.
[edit] Development of the field
This entry is shamefully short. Phonology did not start in 1976! Let's go back to Passy, de Courteney, and Saussure, not to mention the Structuralists.
Exactly. The phoneme in its modern sense goes back roughly to 1876 actually. Jan Niecislaw Baudouin de Courtenay coined the term fonema during his Kazan period. He and Kruszewski refined the concept in terms of a theory of phonetic alternations. After the Revolution, three major phonological centers grew out of Baudouin's theory: Leningrad, Moscow, and Prague. Trubetskoy, Jakobson, and others represented an expatriate Russian school of phonology that put their own spin on Baudouin's concept of phonology. Trubetskoy kept Baudouin's distinction between phonology and morphophonology, but he split phonology into phonemics and archiphonemics in order to distinguish alternations involving phonetic neutralization. So he kep word-final devoicing as a phonological alternation involving archiphonemes, not a morphophonological alternation. Moscow took a line more faithful to Baudouin--that distinct underlying phonemes could be neutralized in certain phonetic positions. So they treated word-final devoicing as a position where distinct voiced and unvoiced obstruent phonemes could be phonetically neutralized. Leningrad took the position that phonemes could never undergo complete neutralization. So their analysis of word-final devoicing treated the alternation as involving distinct phonemes. --rwojcik 16:45, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I finally took my own advice and expanded this section--after someone else had, thankfully. I also moved the section on Generative Phonology in here. It seemed to fit better as a part of this section than as a stand-alone. If someone wants to incorporate some of rwojcik's comments, please do, though it seems that some of the details might be better put into the article on de Courtenay. Squidley 20:07, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but this article is really awful. It recapitulates much of what is covered at the article on 'phoneme' (itself not good), and then makes the bulk of phonology sound like phonemics. First, there is phonology as the thing itself, and phonology as the field that studies that thing. This article didn't even get that much at the outset right. Then it goes on in length mostly about phonemics and jumps into a mish-mash of more modern approaches to phonology, no explained very well. And as if features came out of the 1960s, give me strength!
[edit] What does phonology include?
I would myself like to posit that perhaps a distinction should referenced between Phonetics (descriptions of the phonetic apparatus and its potential) and Phonology (descriptions of how language uses that apparatus).Joshua Crowgey 12:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Does phonology mean only the identification of phonemic differences in a language? That is what this article seems to be saying, especially with claims such as "In some languages, stress is non-phonological." I would say that this is one use of the term.
Should that line, "stress is non-phonological," read: "not distinctive"? Joshua Crowgey 12:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there may be a second use of the term which covers the description of the whole sound system of a language, including prosody, phonotactics, processes of assimilation, etc. From Phonotactics: "Phonotactics is a branch of phonology that deals with restrictions in a language on the permissible combinations of phonemes."
Anyone want to comment? Gailtb 05:17, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I think so too: it treats phonology as if it were largely old phonemics. The phonology vs. phonetics distinction breaks down, and that should affect an article like this profoundly: phonology more and more takes in phonetic considerations that are systematic and language-specific, and phonology is no longer limited to 'contrastive' and/or categorical treatment of segments. It certainly is not an encyclopedic look at the modern field of phonology. As for the history buffs (true of the phoneme as well). Might they better serve their interests by doing two articles: 'history of phonology' and 'phonology'?
[edit] Sign Language Phonology
One branch of phonological study deals with signed, rather than spoken, language. Scholars in this field contend that sign languages have phonology; some would argue this is the same system used in speech.
This article is misleading in that by emphasising 'sounds' it implies that phonology is just 'brain phonetics'. The brief mention of phonology in sign languages needs to be beefed up.
Additionally, "gestures" needs to be replaced (in fact, I'll do it). Typically this is reserved for non-linguistic hand movements, with "signs" used for the sign language modality. The 'gestures' link correctly points to an article on non-verbal communication. Jsteph 12:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ß
Could someone tell me what ß SOUNDS lIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Um, do you mean the German letter ß or the IPA symbol β? The German letter sounds like the /s/ sound of grass or sand. The IPA symbol is a voiced bilabial fricative which doesn't exist in English. You can make it, though, by making a /v/ sound as in very, and then slowly moving your lower lip from your teeth to your upper lip. When your two lips are very close together and the air is flowing out between them, you're making the β sound. Angr (t • c) 23:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Wrong link under J. Kaye in the body of the article "Phonology"
I would like to call for a correction to be made to the link under Jonathan Kaye in the above mentioned article. The link points now to the homonynous Jonathan Kaye, American Golf Tournament Pro, and not to the distinguished linguist now residing in Girona, Spain. Please do correct that error as I have no idea how to do it myself. Thank you. Cedric
[edit] we need lryrics
the little kids need lyrics all they now is we fly high no lie you now dis ballin —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.81.122.104 (talk) 12:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC).
