Talk:Phonological history of the English language

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Contents 1 Time layout 2 Proto West-germanic 3 Northwest Germanic 4 Usefulness for laypeople

[edit] Time layout

Some of these sound changes should be rearranged to fit with the chronology of the them. For instance, "/iː/, /uː/ become /əi/ and /əu/, later /ai/ and /au/." should come at the forefront of the Great Vowel Shift. This can be corroborated by multiple websites on the net as well as by pure logic. /i:/ and /u:/ must have changed before /e:/ and /o:/ became /i:/ and /u:/ respectively.

I recommend that someone go to a university library and look for a diachronic phonology of English book. I go and check University of Washington's libraries. :)

[edit] Proto West-germanic

This term is rather odd, I think. The term West Germanic is normally taken to represent a dialect grouping rather than a reconstructable proto-language, isn't it? --Pfold 22:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Nope, Proto-West Germanic is as reconstructable as any other proto-language. Angr/talk 08:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

But that was my point: WGMc is normally not regarded as a proto-language, and therefor not reconstructable. Here's what Penzel, for example, says (Vom Urgermanischen zum Neuhochdeutschen):

"Die Forschung der letzen Zeit hat mit Energie den Beweis geführt, daß ein westgermanisches Stadium ... nur diachronisch als ein Bezugssystem gelten kann, ihm aber historische Realität als Ursprache oder Grundsprache nicht zuzuschreiben ist."

--Pfold 09:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's his opinion. I don't think that's the standard view of historical linguists, though. Angr/talk 10:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't quoting for Penzl's opinion on the fact but his view that this was the consensus. Here's Chris Wells, taking a similar line: "...we are left with WGmc, and controversy has raged about the nature and unity of the grouping" (German. A Linguistic History to 1945, p. 37). Doesn't this suggest that, at the very least, West Germanic is the more NPOV term?

BTW, since we're talking about terminology, does anyone else find the use of the terms High Germanic and Low Germanic on those and various other Germanic pages rather odd? --Pfold 19:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northwest Germanic

I have started a Northwest Germanic page, and linked from here. --Pfold 12:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usefulness for laypeople

I found an IPA chart for English that explains, with examples, some of the symbols found on this page - but of course, it doesn't cover those that have been dropped from the language. The actual IPA page is of no use for the layperson in determining the meaning of any of these symbols, and individual examples (the mysterious upside-down "r") can be found only on their own pages, like Alveolar trill. I understand that, by definition, it's difficult to provide English examples for sounds that have been phased out of the language or have merged into other sounds, but until there is some available, intelligble information on what these symbols mean - just approximations, something, anything - this page is hermetic knowledge. 151.198.160.248 00:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)