Talk:Phoenix (comics)

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There's a snippet in the entry about someone being the first male to host the Phoenix Force, though I could have sworn that, in an old Spider-Man comic, the Phoenix Force possessed him very briefly. I wouldn't know how to verify this information so I'm hoping someone else can.

You're probably thinking of Spider-Man #25, the cover of which teases a "Spider-Phoenix". The Phoenix in that comic was actually a robot, and the "Spider-Phoenix" was Spidey using its power source as a makeshift flamethrower. -Sean Curtin 03:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Questions

I have a quick question. Since when did Phoenix represent the all-encompassing life-force of the entire multiverse? The shiar quote states that it is the totality of psionic energy, but it never says that it is the totality of life. I know the Phoenix represents resurrection, but not the force of life. Psionic energy is not life force, the fact that the Phoenix used incredible power to absorb a star, which affected future generations of consciousness, does not mean that it stopped life from existing in those future generations. What I'm getting at is that psionic energy and living energy are two distinct things, they may be related on some other level, but they are not one and the same. You need not be conscious to be alive, bacteria do it all the time. Nor did consciousness come before life, evolution speaks to the opposite. I think that this needs to be seriously addressed in future articles and overall Marvel canon.


[edit] Powers

i think you should add this to her power list.

she is capable of Absorbing the energy and life-force from a foe, like in “The Uncanny X-Men 131” were she had a psychic fight with The White Queen aka Emma Frost. The two psychics have a duel when the legendary phoenix rises from jean and grabs Emma with her phoenix claws Emma quotes “Bird Energy construct is draining my strength my very life-force” she starts to feeds on Emma’s life-force making herself even stronger.I am 100% sure she can do this so please add this to the main power page.

Answer: In Excalibur, issue number 61, 1993, Galactus informed the Phoenix that it is able to operate on this plane (being the physical plane of the Marvel Universe) only because it robbed the life-force from generations of the future. He stated that the Phoenix Force is the whole expression of Universal Life Force.

[edit] Alternate Reality Phoenix'

After reviewing the classification stats from the omega-level mutant page, I thought it would be intresting to note here that in an alternate reality, it was Storm and not Jean Grey who merged with the Phoenix Force entity after piloting the space craft from orbit. Storm's body was placed in a healing coccoon and submerged under the Hudson bay. Phoenix-Storm arose from the bay and quickly did away with most super-villains on Earth by freezing them in the atmosphere. When it was realized that the original Storm was in a coccoon, Phoenix-Storm was disperesed and flew off into the galaxy. Storm did not survive the ordeal (similar to Phoenix-Jean Grey). It may be later revealed that Storm was resurected like her counter-part (Jean Grey) in the normal marvel universe. (See http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=76&page=12). I beleive there is one more alternate reality Phoenix wh merges with another being briefly in the Marvel Multiverse.


[edit] See indexes

In the original X-Men Index, the Darkseid encounter was explicitly placed on an alternate Earth, as was done in Titans Index#3 and the Crisis Indexes.

[edit] Retcon

In the original Phoenix Saga, Jean was Phoenix. The idea that the Phoenix Force created a separate clone of Jean Grey was a retcon.

It also happens to be just about the most famous retcon in comics, so it really deserves some mention here. As it is, this article implies that Jean not being Phoenix was the way it was all along. Ken Arromdee 03:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers

user:A Man In Black removed part of the discussion of X3 from the article stating that the reason for that is to reduce spoilers. Is this Wikipedia policy? I can't find anything on it in WP:SPOILER. I would like to keep a large part of the original discussion in, because it differs so much from previous portrayals of Phoenix. Any objections? C mon 22:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

They're irrelevant spoilers, which is why I removed them. The Phoenix Force is an interstellar entity from which Jean Grey derives her powers in the comics and animated series. There's no such entity in the movie, so let's not spoil the movie if we don't have to. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, they are not irrelevant, because they show an adaption of the Phoenix-theme, that it is different from previous portrayals is the exact reason why this should be included in a more lenghty discussion! The reason you cite, "not spoiling the story", is not part of wikipedia policy, while including all relevant information is sort of the purpose of this encyclopaedic project! As a compromise I will include a more lenghty discussion of the adaption of Phoenix in the movie, with less spoilers of the story line, okay? C mon 07:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
We don't need the same spoiler plot summary in three different places. The place for this detailed summary is either Jean Grey or X-Men 3. This article is about an extraterrestrial entity that doesn't appear in that movie, and is referred to only peripherally. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
We need to discuss this here, because this is an alternative view to Phoenix! And Phoenix is the core of the movie! I already tried to compromise, by trimming it down, so please show some cooperative spirit and let's include a piece that's longer than you want and shorter than I want and comprimise. C mon 07:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think what we need is a 3rd opinion to help. A Man In Black has a point, this article is about the cosmic entity, and should pertain to it, but the movie Phoenix is, although not the cosmic entity, another version of Phoenix, as C mon said. The article lists the Phoenix from several different aspects, so its only fair that the Movie Phoenix be given more information on the page as well. Of course, as C mon suggested, it doesnt have to be huge, a full summary of Movie Phoenix should be on the X3 or Jean page, but a single sentence description of Movie Phoenix on this page is rediculously small, even if this isnt its primary article. Try to comprimise and give it a bit more depth at least. DemonWeb 13:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree, with the understanding that it should focus on the diffs between the comic book Phoenix and the movie version. CovenantD 15:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quote from the TV show

User:Aidol keeps inserting a quote from the TV show, which is a bastardized version of what originally appeared in Uncanny X-Men #134. Because it's not correct, and because quotes don't belong here anyway, I feel it should be removed. Neocoronis has removed it as well. Can we get some more opinions? CovenantD 15:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Removal sounds like a good call. --InShaneee 19:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Get rid of it. It's awkward and inconsequential. --Chris Griswold 20:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

Reverted 128.218.186.166's edit. While it seems to be a good-faith effort, it removed some relevant information and didn't seem to add anything in particular. We can discuss it here, if you disagree. Icewolf34 18:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Phoenix God

Per WP:COMIC guidelines, Ultimate character articles should be merged and contained w/in their main universe counterparts. --Newt ΨΦ 13:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

[edit] Discussion

  • The new article offers nothing but plot summary, and nothing that this article can't offer. --Newt ΨΦ 13:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Evolution

I heard once that the phoenix is merely the ultimate in human evolution and that anyone can reach it. The first one was a sorcerer thousands of years ago.

That was probably Feron, but different writers have interpreted the Phoenix Force in different ways. Sometimes it's a cosmic entity, others have described it as part of the character. Endsong was an attempt to resolve all these conflicting ideas. -- Noclevername 06:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dark Phoenix never was Jean Grey?

After reading the line "Dark Phoenix was never Jean Grey", I thought, "that isn't really completely correct anymore." I know the original Byrne retcon made the original Phoenix an alien imposter, but hasn't that retcon recently been retconned itself by Grant Morrison? In the "Here Comes Tomorrow" arc, Jean Grey returns as Phoenix in some kind of "Phoenix Egg" (ie: coccoon) in the exact spot Dark Phoenix died on the moon. Is Jean the person who died on the moon (not in her original body)? It seems that Jean dies and returns in a cocoon (ie: Phoenix Egg) in the spot she died, whether it be Jamaica Bay or the Blue Area of the Moon. I know Morrison isn't a "hit-you-over-the-head" writer, but this seems pretty straightforward. Years earlier, Claremont tried to fix the retcon in Classic X-Men by having the force created body transfer Jean's entire soul into the new body (except a little spark). Anyway, I think these developments should at least be addressed in the article. PS - in the powers section, it reads that the Phoenix Force creates an egg when it dies. This has only been shown with Jean Grey - is it actually a Phoenix trait or a Jean Grey trait? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jpjohn1980 (talk • contribs) 04:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

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