Talk:Philip I of Castile

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Contents 1 Naming 2 Philippe le Beau and his titles 3 Cleanup 4 Joyous Entry of 1477?

[edit] Naming

This article shouldn't be called "Philip I of Castile":

• Philip was de facto never was king of Castile, it was his wife's kingdom and his attempt at becoming regent and co-king was short-lived.
• Philip's own territory was Burgundy and here he was Philip IV for 24 years (1482-1506).

Maybe the best option is to all him Philip the Handsome. Any other views? Str1977 02:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

He was king of Castile - it was in right of his wife, but he was nevertheless king. Notably, he is Philip I, in the same way that his father-in-law is Ferdinand V, despite neither of them being king in their own right. Through to the end of the middle ages, husbands of heiresses were generally considered to hold their wives' title. And, of course, while Philip's main territory was the Burgundian inheritance, this did not include Burgundy itself, which brings into question the numbering, I think - Philip I of Burgundy did not rule over any of the lands which this Philip ruled, I think... john k 16:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

John, I agree with your comments on consorts etc. However, I think Philipp nonetheless bore the title of "duke of Burgundy", even though the actual duchy was lost to the king of France. (I admit however that I never positively heard of any title for him, but I don't think he was styled Free-count of Burgundy etc.) I do not propose changing the title to "Philip I of Burgundy" (that is someone else) but rather to "Philip the Handsome" or "Philip the Fair (Habsburg)" (depending on what the common nickname in English is). Str1977 19:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I oppose the proposed move to "Philip the Handsome". We need to keep these article names systematical. Besides, there are NOT enough grounds for a change to a nickname, see the requirements set by naming convention for monarchs. If we let this slip to nicknamed, we will be flloded under all sorts of nickname proposals, some of which nicknames will be POV. The reason for this ruler's naming is simply that Castile was his highest title, and we do it in that way here. The next highest title he held and used, was Philip I, Archduke of Austria. I do not want to see these articles return to a chaos situation of pages being in unpredictable places and forming a funny shit-bungle in a category or like. The proposer of this move should first go and ask if our naming convention is changed, and it probably will not. Shilkanni 23:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The relevant policy is WP:NC (names and titles). We do not use nicknames unless there is overwhelming usage for them in English sources, as with Alfred the Great or Henry the Lion. Under the circumstances, I would be prepared to consider Philip I of Spain, if that makes any editor happier. Philip the Fair is unacceptable for ambiguity with Philip IV of France. Septentrionalis 19:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I have denied the move request for lack of consensus. Joelito (talk) 00:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

For those arguing that a ruler should always be called by his highest-ranking title, please have a look at William II, Count of Holland. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 22:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

That has been an oversight. Possibly due to the fact that his royal rule was not at all uncontested. Still, he probably should have another title. Go suggest something there. However, regarding THIS item here, (were it the case) even a mistake elsewhere is no argument for making a mistake here. Shilkanni 19:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it was a mistake over there, as William is either known as a count under the mentioned name or as a King under the name William of Holland. Anyway, Philipp's rule (only per his wife) was much more contested than William's was - William was elected as an anti-king but after his rivals' death he was the undisputed king (in his own right) of Germany. All in all, I think hard and fast rules are good but they should allow for exceptions in cases such as this. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Philippe le Beau and his titles

Philip the Fair, Duke of Burgundy, assumed the titles to the Kingdom of Castile in an accession ceremony celebrated in Brussels in 1504 (See Jean Molinet or Jean Lemaire de Belges for the details). This ceremony of accession was then subsequently recognised by the Cortes in 1506, when Philip went to Spain; at that point, Ferdinand withdrew his challenge and acceded to the succession. He died, however, in the same year, so was never able to exercise his regal athority, despite having attained the title.

Philip, however, is principally known for being the Duke of Burgundy, not Philip I of Castile, although both are entirely accurate. While the point made below, that Philip never inherited the title to the Duchy of Burgundy (there was also the County of Burgundy, known today as the Franche Comte), the Habsburgs continued to use the title as the first of his many and it was widely used elsewhere: see, for example, English, Spanish and Venetian ambassadorial correspondence. It might also be noted that ambassadors were sent to the "Burgundian Court". Thus, Philip IV, Duke of Burgundy, or Philip the Fair, Duke of Burgundy, would be an equally appropriate title for this article.

As for the actual list of his titles, he had scads: Duke of Burgundy, Duke of Brabant, Duke of Holland, Count of Zeeland, Cont of Burgundy, Count of Hainault, Count of Flanders, Seigneur de Luxembourg, etc etc etc. Burgundy was ALWAYS listed first, even after the French irredentism of 1482. Eusebeus 11:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

All right except for one thing: Philip did inherit the title "Duke of Burgundy", even though the territory of the actual Duchy was ceded to the King of France. There was nothing irregular in him and his descendents using that title. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree, since the French did not recognise the continued right to the title, so far as I know. He inherited insofar as the Habsburg's did not recognise French reclamation of suzerainty over the title. However, Louis XI (and his successors) named their own "Duke of Burgundy" so, in fact, there were technically two people holding that title, although control over the duchies privileges, prebends, appointments, minting privileges and the like was in the hands of the French Duke (which meant effectively the French king). Interestingly, in his instruction to Philip II on his death, Charles named reclaiming the Duchy back from the French the single most important priority, and Philip did, in fact, make a (vain) effort to regain the territory. So, the "title" was inherited insofar as the French irredentist move in 1482 was not necessarily respected (although French claims to the Duchy under Salic privilege were clear). But the Habsburgs had no actual control over the territory. You may know something I don't, however, which I would be very interested to learn so I don't go around sounding ignorant ;) Eusebeus 16:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

What we have here is a dispute about the the heritage of the Burgundians, including the title. But that doesn't mean that we can decide that now. Charles indeed placed a high value on the Duchy, as he above anything else considered himself a Burgundian (and he achieved his aim, though only for a little while). Anyway, I think you pretty much enough, but let me just state that the title and the actual Duchy are not necessarily the same. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 21:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure we are in dispute in any way(although note the two Dukes of Burgundy in Vicenzo Quirino's correspondence). At any rate, you seem well-informed, so I'm glad to see you keeping an eye on the page. The article needs to be cleaned up, and I don't care what the title of the article is particularly, so if you are game, let's make a stab. Eusebeus 23:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure, Eusebeus. The dispute I referred to was between the King of France and the Habsburgs, not between us. WP need not take side in this (though I know where my sympathies lie). I also appreciate your help in this, as my aim has been for a while to move this from the terrible "Philip of Castile" to something more telling. As of yet, I have not been successful. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 08:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"Philip IV of Burgundy" is hardly any better than "Philip I of Castile." And I believe "Archduke of Austria" would have come before "Duke of Burgundy" in Philip's list of titles. john k 10:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That is the whole problem: the dogmatic sticking to a rule that might work in most cases but not in all, using a "higher title" which the protagonist is hardly known under.

And no, I wouldn't object to "Philipp the Handsome, Archduke of Austria either. Which title preceded the other is IMHO both an open and a not really relevant question.

However, since verifiability is such an important principle of WP, I had a look into the "Lexikon des Mittelalters" and looked up Philip, who is called in this book (Philipp, #15): "Ph. der Schöne, Ehzg., Fs. der Niederlande (Burgund)", which translates to Philip the Handsome, Archduke, Prince of the Low Countries/Netherlands (Burgundy).

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 12:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

One more thing: Philip's Archducal title must be of the kind later common, when all male members of the Habsburg dynasty bore the title, as Philip actually never ruled over the Austrian lands. Or has someone a better explanation? Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 12:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That was a standard title for the eldest son of the Habsburgs; it passed to Charles as well, before the split of the two patrimonies. And it's true it did come first in the documents of the day. Eusebeus 12:56, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

So I guess it began with Philip. Originally, the title Archduke belonged to the prince ruling over the Duchy of Austria, or later the Duchies of Lower and Upper Austria (with Lower Austria being more important). It was created first by Duke Philip IV's forged Privelegium Maius but never recogniuued until Duke Frederick (Philip's grandfather) became Emperor and ratified the Privilegium.

Anyway, it is a title used with Philip. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 12:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Maximilian had the title as well until he succeeded Frederick, although I am not entirely sure. Do you have access to Wiesflecker's biography? The details would certainly be elaborated in there, doubtless as great length. I ought to know the answer to this but my area of expertise is Valois/Hb Burgundy, and I am less informed about the Austrian patrimony (the Privelegium Maius was new information to me). Eusebeus 09:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I will look to having a look into that book.

Maximilian's title might also be related to his reign in other Austrian territories (I think he took over Tyrol from a bankrupted relative ... and probably all reigning Habsburgs used the title at that time, even those reigning over Tyrol or Styria.

If you want to know more details about the two Austrian Privilegia, just drop me a line. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Ok, I have started making an effort to get this article into some kind of better shape. I have added some subdivisions and started in on fleshing out the details. Please let me know if you have any ideas for improvement. Eusebeus 10:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

the pic in the German version is much more "handsome"82.152.158.193 22:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joyous Entry of 1477?

The article states that some of the territory was removed from Mary of Burgundy's power by the "Joyous Entry of 1477." The article on the Joyous Entry indicates it happened more than a century earlier, though it seems to have been a document that was followed for several centuries--and it seems to involve the Dukes of Brabant rather than Burgundy. The article on Mary does not mention it at all; it talks about the Great Privilege she was forced to sign in 1477. Can someone who knows something about all this clarify it in all relevant articles? Thanks. Laura1822 14:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, to a degree, at Mary's page. The confusion derives form the fact the agreement by which her rights were stripped is also referred to commonly by its Dutch name, Blijde Inkomst, which was, and still is, the means by which recognition was extended to the Counts of Flanders, etc.... Eusebeus 12:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)