Talk:Persian people

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To-do list for Persian people: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
  • Lead: Expand the article's intro.
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  • New collage picture is needed
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[edit] New picture for info-box is needed

I removed the picture of Cyrus the Great from the infobox and placed it in the history section. I think for the info-box there should be some pictures that show what typical Persian people look like. In a previous version from several months ago that is what he had and I think we should back to that. So let's try to find some pictures that would serve this purpose well. Parsiwan 03:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a new picture for the info-box of some singers. I think that should do. Cyrus's picture was moved to the history section. Parsiwan 01:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest using the following image for the infobox:


Individuals in the photo (from left to right): Babak Khorramdin, Forough Farrokhzad, Pierre Omidyar & Hakīm Abū-l-Qāsem Ferdowsi.
-Marmoulak 00:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

That is a great image, thank you. I placed yours there and removed mine since people were arguing that Googoosh is not a Persian. I also added the names of these personalities under their images and also I added a summary on your image's page. Another reason I guess is because it shows more important persons rather than singers. However, we should think about the following: for the info-box, do we want images to show what an ethnic group typically looks like OR do we want to put pictures of important and historic people? Since that question is open, I'll leave my image here just incase we change our minds in the future. Parsiwan 03:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
You have already put a good image. I just made another example for fun! take care! Sangak 13:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Simin Behbahani, Abbas Kiarostami, Karmran Vafa and Lily Afshar
Simin Behbahani, Abbas Kiarostami, Karmran Vafa and Lily Afshar
Unfortunately we separated Persians of Iran from other Persians. That makes no sense. However if this is the case, let's have a photo that is representative of modern persians of Iran. The photo that I suggests represents women and men equally. Also all of these people are known in Iran and live or travel very often to Iran. The photo represents Persian cinema, Persian literature, Persian Symphonic Music and Science in Iran (Vafa has close collaboration with Sharif University and IPM). I think this photo is OK and the people in the photo have a more or less typical Persian/Iranian look. Sangak 14:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
That's fine. Thanks a lot.Sangak 22:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

This article needs a lot of work overall and starting with the picture, it might be a good idea to do what was done with Azeris and Pashtuns, both articles I worked on and have an opening image not of famous people, but ordinary Persians. This is what most encyclopedias do and the famous people usage can be relegated to sections on history and culture instead which makes more sense. Tombseye 16:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference to Tajikistan in the lead

Since when Persians are a minority in Tajikistan? --Mardavich 11:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

That is most likely a reference to recent Persian arrivals from Iran rather than a larger socio-political statement. Tombseye 16:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] significant populations

Is for example, 2000 in Finland, really a "significant population"? I think the article will look better without such a long list of countries. --Rayis 22:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian and Persian

There is usually a recurring discussion about the use of the words Iranian and Persian. I think there should be some consistency with the instances where the words Persian or Iranian are used. The section on Terminology is useful and clear, however, when we continue in the article we see Iranian and Persian used interchangeably, moreover, if we are speaking about Persians (as in persians vs. medes) there is no way to clearly specify if individuals referred to as persians are Iranianss or specifically Persians. There has been a lot of mixture of blood between all the ethnicities in modern and ancient Iran and unless there is a consistent way of treating the two labels, we will end up misusing both of these words. I think whatever is decided on needs to be clearly explained in the article so others can use the same rules.

Some issues to consider are that the country has always been called Iran and never Persia (as stated in the article), that "Iranian" will exclude many Persians and "Persian" will exclude many Iranians. Many of the people who consider themselves persians in countries other than Iran might also not be ethnically persian, although they have the same language and culture (just like some Iranians). In the end, the article should respect all of these people and realize that in the end, we are talking about people who have very much in common and respecting this sense of unity and at the same time diversity is important.

Definite


[...] many Western sources [..] will label many non-Persian Iranians as Persians, which distinguishes nationality, not necessarily the Persian ethnic group.Also, many others who embraced the Persian language and culture are also often referred to as Persian, not necessarily meaning ethnic group, but rather as a part of Persian civilization (culturally and linguistically).

I think it's not clear to the reader when the article is speaking of the Persian ethnicity and when it is referring to people who embraced the culture (which includes all of Iranians and some non-Iranians). I also just read in wikipedia that even Cyrus was half Persian and half Mede, so now when we are talking about kiarostami or behbahani, are we using persian to mean they are ethnically fully persian? I believe there should also be more consistency between all of the pages relating to Iran, Persia, Iranian women, Persian empire, Persian people, etc. Finally, I recommend including a link to the "Iran naming dispute." It's very informative and I believe unbiased. If someone were to simply try to find out the right labels, the articles would each point the reader to a different direction. I believe the most useful pages are Iran naming dispute and Iran. --Definite 05:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Behbahani and Kiarostami are indeed persian for the simple fact that they are seen as persian by Kurds, Azeris etc (example:[1]). Persian is not a genetic/ethnic groups as Kurd are Azeri are. It is more a linguistic/cultural groups who is identified by other ethnic groups in the region as an "ethnic group". Sina Kardar 20:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic?

We should refrain from calling Persians an ethnic group. Persians are too mixed to be considered anything close to that. The main factor determining who is Persian and who is not is language. Shervink 13:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

The term ethnic may give the wrong impression, but it doesn't mean Persian is not an ethnic group. Just like how many if not all Jews see them selves as an ethnic group (ethno-religious), Persian can be seen as an ethnic group in the sense of an ethno-linguistical group --Rayis 14:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Some Jews identify themselves as a race separate from Caucasians, and nearly all Jews identify with Israel. Let me clarify that while employed at a prestigious American College I personally witnessed a few Jewish students explicitly articulate they are of the Jewish Race. Not all Jewish students identified themselves as being of the Jewish Race. These students may very well be a minority, but there are enough Jewish students that identified themselves as being of a different race to be noteworthy. Anti-Jewish bigots have also labeled Jews as a different Race in furtherance of racist causes. I am not a bigot, and think it is appropriate to disclose first-hand accounts in Wikipedia discussions so that editors may conduct their own research and incorporate independent findings that are later included in Wikipedia articles. My comment is merely a first-hand account of student responses and no disrespect what-so-ever intended. παράδοξος 04:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Persians are a fairly distinct ethnic group, related by common ancestry. All Persians do not share a common language, and the distinction is made. Persians can be of different religions and are geographically dispersed, much like Slavs. Jews consider themselves a distinct ethnic group, which is interesting because of the diaspora from Israel to Africa, Asia, and Europe thousands of years ago and a partial Jewish assimilation of their respective resident countries. παράδοξος 05:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population numbers

The upper and lower bounds for the population did not match the numbers given in the list. A simple addition gives the range 36-43 million.Heja Helweda 05:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persian, Iranian articles Restructuring

Currently we have following articles related to this topic

[edit] What is the problem?

  • Wikipedia is designed to be used by ordinary people. And ordinary people when say Iranian or Persian are referring to the citizens of Iran or people from Iranian decent. But now these pages are disambiguation pages which is not necessary.
  • In my opinion, Persian generally means a citizen of Iran but with current structure it is not interpreted at all.
  • When we want to wikilink the nationality of a person to Iran or old Persia, none of the above articles are appropriate.

[edit] The solution

To solve above mentioned problems I think the articles should be changed as follows:

  • Iranian (disambiguation) should be an indipendent article with contents of current Iranian page.
  • Persian should be moved to Persian (disambiguation)
  • Iranian should be dedicated to citizens of Iran and people from Iranian decent around the world.
  • Persian should be redirected to the new Iranian page
  • Persian people should be moved to Persian (Ethnicity). And many of unrelated stuff including the population of Iranian in other countries (which are not completely from Persian Ethnicity) should be moved to the new Iranian page.
  • Demographics of Iran should be merged completely or partly in new Iranian page
  • Iranians and Persians should be redirected to the new Iranian page.

Persian (disambiguation) and Iranian (disambiguation), be mentioned in the first line of new Iranian.

So what do you think? (Arash the Archer 19:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC))
I'm not a fan of redirecting Persian/Persians to Iranian. As a Persian born outside of Iran 27 years ago to longtime expatriates and raised completely divorced from the country of Iran my entire life, I don't feel that the adjective Persian has anything to do with Iranian people (as a nationality with 60% Persian people) or similar issues. It's nothing against Iran or Iranians, it's just a problematic blur. It was unsettling enough to see Persian women redirected to Iranian woment. If it would help, maybe there should be a careful explanation/disambiguation of the two. That's my opinion, I think the other changes sound sensible. --Bobak 23:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population Range

According to my discussion with Ali Doostzadeh here[2], I changed the total population number. The previous total number did not match the numbers given in the table. I inivite editors to check it out for themselves. The previous range could not be derived from the table and this was damaging the credibility of a good article.Thanks.Heja Helweda 05:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

respectfully request stacking photos vertically (2X2) vs (4) in order to render infobox a smaller width. the current width of the infobox is too wide and impedes user experience. παράδοξος 03:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't make it 2X2 but I think I fixed it and I think now its small enough. Also I added the names of these people with a link to them. --Behnam 07:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
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