Talk:Perfidious Albion

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This page is barely coherent.

I thought "Alba" was the Scots Gaelic name for Scotland too. If it refers to white in that context then why would Scotland be named after the white cliffs of Dover in England? I can't think that the two words are completely unrelated, but they may be. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.85.15.76 (talk • contribs).

They almost certainly are unrelated. Alba was a generic Latin title used for mountainous areas. Albania is a non-British example of its use. It generally refers to the white snow-caps on the mountain peaks. That is almost certainly why it was used for Scotland by the Gaels. Albion is generally assumed to be connected to the White Cliffs but this may just be a case of fake etymology. It may well refer to Britain as a whole, which, north of Watford, is fairly mountainous. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Then who's running all these casinos?

"Total annihilation of the aborigines"? That's a bit harsh. Also a bit verifiably untrue.

Moreover, it's hard to see how British support for the 21st-century invasion of Iraq can exactly be seen as a cause for the coinage in Spain of a 19th-century French phrase, which is what I think the article is trying to claim. Seriously, is this article even salvageable? — Haeleth Talk 11:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the current article is a joke

there is nothing valuable in, this is the result of the non-NPOV of English users' protectionism and censorship. However, by merging a translation of the French and Spanish articles, the English article could become encyclopedic. Synchronicity I 15:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Spanish article does not cite any sources whatsoever, so we cannot use any material from it: it fails our fundamental verifiability policy. The French article cites only one source, and only for the explanation of the term "Albion", so again, we cannot simply copy most of the rest of the material, for the same reason.

This is not a question of "censorship", it is a question of conforming to Wikipedia policy. — Haeleth Talk 18:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I have, however, rewritten it in a more encyclopedic form, and added a reference. I haven't been able to get access to the whole of Schmidt's article yet, so I haven't been able to expand the article much, but at least people with an interest in the subject will now know where to look for a scholarly overview of the history of the term. — Haeleth Talk 19:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree of course on your encyclopedic POV. Here is a section that was written on the anglophobia but needed to be moved here. It is sourced and could be used to complete the current article.

"The very same expression is known as Pérfida Albión in the Spanish speaking world though. Perfidious (from the French perfidieux, later perfide) signifies one who does not keep his faith or word. The expression is coined to the French bishop and theologian Bossuet "England, ah! Perfidious England inacessible to the Romans because of her seas rempart, the Savior's foe is get into."^[1] It was later popularized by French diplomat and poet, Marquis de Ximénèz, in his poem, The French Era, as "Let's attack the perfidious Albion in her waters".^[2]. A century later the expression was stil in use with authors such as Henri Simon, writting "Tremble, tremble you perfidious Albion", or Christophe's "The perfidious Albion who had burnt Joan of Arc on the Saint-Helen rock" in France's first comic, La Famille Fenouillard. These two authors are quoted in the 1821 anthology, Poésies Révolutionnaires et Contre-révolutionnaires, which indicates the perfide Albion expression was à la mode in the 18th & 19th centuries. Other notorious authors who have used the anglophobe expression in this era were Chateaubriand, Banville, Goncourt --who already refers to the expression as "a well known old saying"-- and Anatole France, plus the popular press journalists who use it in articles about the rivalry between the United Kingdom and France about the colonial extension in Africa, or about the attitude of the British trying by every means possible to prevent the completion of the Suez Canal, as the French project was jeopardizing their own interests in the area.^[3][4]" Synchronicity I 03:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

That's more like it! Informative, encyclopedic, NPOV, and above all sourced. You're absolutely right: that information should certainly be merged into this article. I don't have time to do it myself right now, but I will do so later if you or anyone else doesn't do it first. — Haeleth Talk 12:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humorous use

It should perhaps be pointed out that, in modern French, the phrase often is used humorously. If an Englishman defeats a Frenchman at chess, for example, the latter might well exclaim "Perfide Albion!" There's an element of self-mockery aimed at French chauvinism. Rhinoracer 13:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)