Talk:Penzance

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		This article falls within the scope of the the Cornwall Wikiproject, an attempt to improve and expand Wikipedia coverage of Cornwall and all things Cornish. Contributions and new members welcome, you can edit the attached page, do a task from our to-do list, or visit the project page, and contribute to discussion.
		See drop down box for suggested article edit guidelines: Suggested article edit guidelines: Articles are written using a standard set of headings (see suggestions for article structure here. This is to maintain consistency between Cornwall articles and improve the quality of entries through a constant style of writing. These headings are, however, plastic and in state of flux and although we welcome suggestions or improvements, we would appreciate discussionbefore any major changes to the layout yourself. Be bold - if you know something about Cornwall then put it in! We value your contributions and don't be afraid is your spelling isn't great as there are plenty of spelling and grammar experts on clean-up duty! At the the Cornwall Wikiproject we subscribe to the policies laid down by Wikipedia - particularly civility and consensus building. We are aware that the wording on Cornish entries can sometimes be a contentious topic, especially those concerning geography. You don't have to agree with everything but there is no excuse for rudeness and these things are best solved through consensus building and compromise. These pages are not platforms for political discussion. Issues relating to Cornish politics should be restricted to those pages that directly deal with these issues (such as Constitutional status of Cornwall, Cornish self-government movement, etc) and should not flow over into other articles. Most of all have fun editing - thats the reason we all do this right?!

		This article is part of the Penwith Wikiproject, an attempt to improve and expand Wikipedia coverage of the district of Penwith in Cornwall, United Kingdom and related topics. Contributions and new members welcome, you can edit the attached page, do a task from our to-do list, or visit the project page, and contribute to discussion.
		See drop down box for suggested article edit guidelines: Suggested article edit guidelines: Articles are written using a standard set of headings (see suggestions for article structure here. This is to maintain consistency between Cornwall articles and improve the quality of entries through a constant style of writing. These headings are, however, plastic and in state of flux and although we welcome suggestions or improvements, we would appreciate discussionbefore any major changes to the layout yourself. Be bold - if you know something about Penwith then put it in! We value your contributions and don't be afraid is your spelling isn't great as there are plenty of spelling and grammar experts on clean-up duty! At the the Penwith Wikiproject we subscribe to the policies laid down by Wikipedia - particularly civility and consensus building. We are aware that the wording on Cornish geography entries can sometimes be a contentious topic. You don't have to agree with everything but there is no excuse for rudeness and these things are best solved through consensus building and compromise. These are geography pages, and are not platforms for political discussion. if you want to talk about Cornish politics there are other pages who would value your expertise and contributions (Constitutional status of Cornwall, Cornish self-government movement). Most of all have fun editing - thats the reason we all do this right?!

Contents 1 Pensans vs Pennsans 2 Recent Edits 3 Maps 4 Transport 5 Trains 6 Edit war 7 Arms 8 Good Article status? 8.1 Ganymead's suggestions 9 Clear? 10 Photos 11 Notable residents 12 Religion

[edit] Pensans vs Pennsans

I have reverted the recent edit from Pensans to Pennsans because while in some forms of revived cornish this is correct the most common usage historically has been Pensans - For evidence please refer to the welcome sign at Penzance train station

[edit] Recent Edits

I have added some more content to history section and tried to organise it a bit Reedgunner

Some nice stuff - Maybe we should even aim for getting Penzance to featured quality! I'm currently waiting on a few books that should help with improve the Penwith History sections. I'm coming to the end of my local knowledge, and often I can't add stuff that I do know because it can't be referenced Mammal4 14:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Some good work is being done by user: 84.71.14.22 in formatting and adding to this article. Does this contributor wish to join Wikipedia (it is free!)? St. Just and Sennen could do with the kind of tidying up done to Penzance (the article).LessHeard vanU 20:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Apologies to wikipedia - users I neglected to log in user: 84.71.14.22 is actually also user:Reedgunner - thanks for the feedback

Great. If you would just create a user page with a talk facility, then I could badger you about West Cornwall articles (I'm assuming you are local to the area?) ((Big Grin)) LessHeard vanU 11:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

User page now created feel free to bombard me as you wish!! user: Reedgunner I agree that more work needs to be done on other Penwith pages and would be happy to get together with other users - had a go with St Just but ended up with an editing conflict with another user - The increased interest can only be beneficial to the quality of the articles!

I agree - lots of good work from Reedgunner going on on this page, but also much more work needed on the other Penwith parishes and towns. I have taken the liberty of removing the generic map that was on this page (as I thought the scale was not suited to an article on Penzance), and replaced it with a fact box containing summary information and a more detailed map. The factbox is in the style of that used for other Wiki Uk geography pages, so I thought it would be good to keep a consistent style on these articles. I have been trying to put simmilar boxes with summary information onto all of the Penwith parish pages, but it is hard work - I have uploaded relevant parish map variations for all the parishes if somebody else wants to give me a hand and hurry it along? I would be interested in hearing what other people think?

I think you are doing a great job. I work in Helston, and have lived and worked in Penzance but came to the county only 14 years (wow, that is quite long) so know little about the history apart from what you get on picture postcards. I don't know if it is a subject that requires a project, it is something I would usually only glance at (although it is on my watchlist). Projects generally require a leader and policy and tech stuff. If contributors keep to (or implement) standard Wiki policy then it should come out okay.LessHeard vanU 21:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to sort out these Penwith pages for a while, but haven't been getting much feedback (yes I have local knowledge). It would be great if we could work together to sort this miniproject out? I plan to be out taking photos to liven up the entries when the weather is a bit nicer, though I'm no David Bailey :) Looking forward to finally getting some movement on this Mammal4 16:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)(t)

[edit] Maps

Steinsky If you think that there needs to more context in the map box, then maybe something that shows Cornwall would be more useful? Maybe something adapted from the Cornwall page itself, which has a map of Penwith in Cornwall, and of Cornwall in England? I appreciate that you are trying to ensure that no information is lost, but I am actually trying to improve the article and I don't really appreciate the sniping comment you left on the history page Mammal4 16:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)(t)

My comment was not intentially sniping. My point is, the majority of people reading Wikipedia (especially those who have a need to look up what Penzance is) will not have a clue what Penwith is, and the parishes map will not help give them an idea if where Penzance is. A lot more people will be familiar with the UK, and will be able to recognise Penzance's location from that map. I don't see any need to choose one over the other, they are both useful but for different purposes. Joe D (t) 17:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for snapping - I have had a long day! Its a fair point and I think it is improved by including both maps, I just think we can do better than that green blob! Something in the Uk geography style would be an improvement I think. Using a political map as with the other regions, rather than the existing one which doesn't show the borders of the countries clearly would be better. I'll try and sort something out when I have time.Mammal4 18:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)(t)

Maps/Pictures are great - it is best to assume that the average reader may not know where Cornwall is in the British Isles. Those who have an interest may not know the names/locations of the Districts, let alone the parishes, so much so that I usually describe the location (West Cornwall, South Cornwall etc.) in the text while the correct information can be found in the leader or an info box.LessHeard vanU 21:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you - I just had issue with the low quality 'one size fits all' green blob graphic that is on a lot of Cornwall pages. I will definitely try and knock up something a bit prettier and more in the Wiki:Uk geography style. Also maybe the Uk map should go above the parish map in a seapate box, so that it isn't under the parish header? Mammal4 21:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)(t)

re your last comment, it looks like you went ahead - and it looks fine. Someone not familiar with the area can see where (generally) it is at a glance, and then the details follow. Nice!LessHeard vanU 21:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transport

I've amended the Isles of Scilly comment slightly, since I know there is a fixed wing aircraft service from Lands End Aerodrome - with a bus collection service operating from Pz - and I think there is one via Exeter (but perhaps only seasonal?)

Can anyone give a quick guide to the National Bus service run from alongside the Railway Station, and mention the local bus services?LessHeard vanU 21:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll try and get on that Mammal4 08:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

We have recently had an (entirely reasonable) edit removing Penzance Railway station, since it is mentioned generally in the preceeding paragraph. If someone is to do a paragraph about the Railway Station, including the National Coach station and the local bus station, then the editor will need to remove the mention in the paragraph above... Actually, I think I will revert to the preceeding edit and then remove the earlier mention. I hope this is okay?LessHeard vanU 12:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Cracking work by Mammal4!LessHeard vanU 22:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Ta :) Mammal4 08:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trains

Surely local trans are run by Wessex Trains, not Wales and West? Joe D (t) 22:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

NO I don't think so - Wessex trains are actually defunct now I think. First Great Western now run most of the local services, which I've ammended in the text (although havn't bothered to change the logos on the trains from when it was Wales and West). I havn't seen any Wessex logos, but they might have run services in the past). I think South West trains will be running services out of Penzance from the autumn, but I haven't added this in, becasue I don't know what the timetabling is!Mammal4 08:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh that's right, I had read about Wessex being taken over. But still, as the Wales and West article states, that company dissapeared years ago! Joe D (t) 03:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree - it is a bit rubbish that they haven't bothered to paint over the W&W logo since the company was dissolved. Anyway, I've ammended the text, so it doesn't really matter either way! Mammal4 07:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

Because the perpetraitors do not appear to have static IPs I have protected the article against anon edits for a while. Established editors can continue to build the article in peace. Joe D (t) 22:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arms

Anyone know what happened to the coat of arms in the infobox? - it appears to have been deleted Mammal4 10:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just trawled through all the edits back to the end of November 06; I can't see where it was removed... LessHeard vanU 21:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

D'oh! The address is still there, but it is redlinked so I guess the image has been removed from commons (may not have been properly licensed). Unless a free or fair use (I think the Penzance Coat of Arms would qualify for a Penzance article) image can be found the link needs to be removed. Perhaps a word in Reedrunners ear re a suitable image? LessHeard vanU 21:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

HI the PZ arms were properly licensed before - Just to make sure I contacted tha Mayor last night and confirmed that - I have uploaded the image from an official source all the best Simon

[edit] Good Article status?

I believe that if the reference to Cornish Hurling and a possible but unsubstantiated relationship to a code of Rugby were removed, and a bit of copyediting done, that this article could be referred for GA review. Anybody up for it? LessHeard vanU 14:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeh lets go for it!! user:reedgunner 14:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright. Know any good editor for a spot of copyediting? LessHeard vanU 14:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I've asked the editor who looked over St Buryan to give Penzance the once over before we send it for review Mammal4 15:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I've removed the Hurling/Rugby text, it is the sort of thing that might determine a reviewer to fail the piece. LessHeard vanU 15:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes thanks !!I will get my mate who is an academic editor to glance over it too Reedgunner 17:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ganymead's suggestions

Mammal4 requested that I look over this article. Here are my suggestions:

• First off, I don't think this article would pass GA yet. It still really needs some work.
• A great deal of the article remains uncited. GA now requires cites and FAC now usually requires pretty much everything to be cited. The items that are cited, I'm not sure if the refererences are correctly listed. Check WP:CITE for that.
• The population listed in the intro should be cited and include a date for that number.
• The intro itself is in need of an expansion. It should summarize the article.
• In Early history, the lone sentence on Iron Age settlement should be expanded. What evidence exists?
• The section on the origins of the name Penzance should probably be brokwn off into a section on Etymology.
• There is not much information on the history between the Iron Age and 1322.
• The first mention of the city in 1322 - where is this mentioned?
• Other than mention of the pirate raids, is there much medievel history about the town?
• Some more info on the Spanish raid would be interesting rather than providing an external link.
• Why was the religious activity centered in Madron? Did Penzance not have a church of its own?
• I think the quote from Arnold Boscowitz is rather useless. I see no point in quoting a 19th century writer about an 18th century event unless he had firsthand knowledge. Rather describe how the town was affected.
• In the next paragraph, again, population numbers should ALWAYS be cited.
• The sentence on Lord Nelson is interesting, but it just seems to be lonely...
• The next two sections could be combined into a section on Mining.
• There is nothing on modern history.
• Overall, the history section appears to be just highlights and interesting tidbits rather than a full history. Definitely this sections should be greatly expanded.
• There is no section on geography.
• Twinning can be moved towards the end of the article.
• Transport section should be cited.
• Economy should also be expanded and cited.
• The section on the built environment should be expanded and included under a section called Cityscape. The natural environment section would belong under Geography.
• Points of interest should be written in prose and should be placed in a tourism section under Culture.
• Are there any other cultural activities in Penzance besides festivals? Performing arts? Media? These and the Sports section should be included under culture.
• There should be a section on Education.

Ok, wow. That's a list! Please don't think I'm being mean here, this article is a good start, but I think there's a good deal more that should be done. I hope this is helpful. I haven't copyedited as I forsee that there may be much work done on this article. Should you need a copyedit then, I'll be more than happy to do it. Should you need clarification on any points feel free to ask. Cheers! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 20:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that is very comprehensive. Would it be right to say that not everything needs addressing (say one or two of the points) to make it good enough. An example would be the history between the abandonment of the iron age settlements and 1322; there is (for all intents and purposes) nothing to write about! The adjoining towns were the centres of population, which partly answers the point about Madron church, and history is silent about the area (oral history would have been in Cornish, which has not survived the millenia) .

If there is nothing to be added to a point you have commented upon then it needs either removing completely (my preferred option) or have it so noted.

Thanks again, that really was helpful. LessHeard vanU 21:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

For sections of the history where little happened, it should be noted in the history so that it doesn't seem like they are being skipped over. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 23:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clear?

Penzance (Pensans), which translates as "holy headland" in the Cornish language, is a reference to the chapel of St. Anthony that stood over a thousand years ago on the headland to the west of what became Penzance harbour, and subsequently became the source of the name of the settlement later built nearby.

Do people think this new bit I've put in is clear enough - i.e that it is holy headland because of the chapel, or does it make it sound like the town should be named after St Antony?Mammal4 18:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it makes more sense if it ends after "harbour"... and add "location" as in

Penzance (Pensans), or "holy headland" in the Cornish language, is a reference to the location of the chapel of St. Anthony that stood over a thousand years ago on the headland to the west of what became Penzance harbour.

I also cut down the 'translation' bit. Does this work? LessHeard vanU 21:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, better ;)Mammal4 08:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Any suggestions for photos to illustrate this article (which is coming on nicely, BTW, thanks to the efforts of two or three editors). I was wondering if an image of the plaque outside Barclays referencing Bolitho Bank could be used at the end of the mining section? LessHeard vanU 21:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes well done everyone - still a way to go yet though. I have a few photos of Chapel Street and the Egyptian house, plus one of the dry dock. I will try and get them on in a little while, but really snowed at work!Mammal4 09:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable residents

I think that its better to put the extra info about notable people onto the other list of notable residents page I created, otherwise it creates too many short choppy paragraphs which will cause problems when we have the page reviewed for GA status. Mammal4 13:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, I'm not sure either way. The sub-section on Sir Humprhey Davy is neither one thing nor the other - not list; not article. It could possibly be moved in the history section and then the link to the list put either in the Culture or See also section. Alternatively, merge the list into this page as just bullets (either way, it could do with one or two words to explain why each of those people is important).

Just some thoughts. You decide. Geof Sheppard 08:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The list was originally merged into the page, but I felt overwhelmed things a little, and a lot of the people aren't really that notable to be honest and detract from the main thrust of the article. If you look at previous GA debates, lists of things in articles are one of the things that they don't seem to like. Anyway, I agree that what is there now could do with some work - maybe just flesh out the highlights in the short leader a little more? Any article on Penzance should definitely include a short section on Davy - I will try and improve the summary that is in the article at present. Take careMammal4 08:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Now we have a religion section would it be a good idea to move the historical religious content to this section Reedgunner 09:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)