Talk:Pentateuch

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is supported by WikiProject Bible, an attempt to promote the creation, maintainance, and improvement of articles dealing with the Bible. Please participate by editing this article, or visit the project page for more details on the projects. Guidelines: Manual of Style - Naming conventions
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Christianity Portal Pentateuch is part of the WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familier with the guidelines.

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

[edit] Archaic?

I removed the reference to the Pentateuch being archaic. I could ask just about any Christian I know to tell me what Pentateuch means, and they would say it was the first five books of the Bible. It may be archaic in Jewish circles (?), but among Christians it is current.

I may just not be looking under the right heading but it seems to me that some discussion of the order of the writings in the pentateuch is always a good idea. (The same goes for the New Testament.)This is especially the case if we look at the Bible as historians. I think Exodus should come first. Anyone agree with me?oldcitycat 15:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Groupings

I added a groupings section to discuss the 4/5/6 book options. I have removed the stub mark as I don't think there is much more that can be said about this topic that isn't covered here or in the Torah article. Codec 13:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps merge with the torah?

I think this article would perhaps best be merged with the article on the Torah, since the Pentateuch and the Torah are the same exact books. The only reason I could think of to keep them separate would be to abstain from offending anyone who wouldn't like to see the two terms used together. (I'm of the impression that "Pentateuch" is used more frequently among Christian people than Jewish ones?)

No, I don't think anyone (Christian or Jewish) would be offended by this. It is basically a neutral term, though probably not the most popular one. Nevertheless, though no one is likely to be offended by either term, there are good reasons to keep them separate in terms of their usage. See here. Dovi 07:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I could see the two (ie Torah and Pentateuch) merged as long as it is also stated in the article that the term 'Pentateuch' is historically specific to the Greek translation of the Torah made prior to Jesus' birth, peace be upon him, and translated- as tradition states- for the library of a Greek (my memory eludes me but I think tradition states it was for Alexander the Great?). There are of course other noted versions of the Torah and an interested student of religion would want to seperate the terms when describing the extensive history of the Hebrew Bible. -J

I would vote against merging the articles for a few reasons: first -- as I will explain -- they aren't the same thing -- that the original form of the Torah is much older than the Pentateuch is the least of the reasons I say this. What will probably not make much sense to those who are not Jews, students of poetry, and/or religious scriptural translations is that the Torah is not truly translatable. Sure, it has been transferred from Hebrew into Latin, Aramaic, Arabic, Slavonic, English, what have you; and the stories may seem the same. But the literal translation from Hebrew to Greek (as St.Gerome found when he translated the Septuagint into Latin Vulgate) was not sufficient, and the Septuagint was translated by Jews! Besides the literal translational issue, there are also the abstracts which do not translate. Ideas and nuances of the original Hebrew Torah that get completely lost in translation. As it is written in Hebrew, the Torah (similar to the Qur'an) resembles poetry. It exists in Hebrew in a format that does not truly translate into other languages. One example that immediately comes to mind would be easily argued by Jewish mystics: the numerology used in the Hebrew version of the Torah doesn't translate because Hebrew letters also act as numerals. Lastly, Torah also refers to an actual Torah, which you will find in any synagogue around the world, as a set of sacred scrolls, handwritten on kashrut parchment and with a whole set of rules on how it must be handled. Keep them separate. If anything, put the Pentateuch and the Septuagint together. But please keep the Torah and the Pentateuch as separate articles. Thank you Ryecatcher773 02:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-title "Groupings" to "Composition", small re-write

I changed the title of the "Groupings" section to "Composition" as this sems to be more acurate, plus expanded the para on the Doc Hyp. PiCo 04:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarity

First: The Hebrew Bible is more than just the first five books -- which is the section known as the Torah (the Laws). There are also the Nev'vim (The Prophets), and the Ketuvim (The Writings). Thus, it is inaccurate to refer to the Pentateuch simply as the Hebrew Bible, and I have changed the intro to reflect that.

Second: The number '5' in Greek is not penta, it's pente -- pronounced "pen-day". And although the word transliterates into Pentateuch, which is pronounced (wrongly) pen-ta-took (rhyming with spook) the 'eu' in Greek makes is a diphthong that is pronounced as an 'ef', not an 'oo' sound. I wrote it in Greek so it could be seen in its proper form. The word is also not a direct translation, but has an esoteric meaning referring to the Ancient Greek word for the cases a scroll is carried in. I tried to make that a bit clearer. Ryecatcher773 02:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Differentiation

I think that the main argument for making a distinctive section for the "Pentateuch" from the "Torah" is because of the difference between Christian and Rabbinical theology.

They are two completely different traditions, with completely different approaches to a hermeneutic and treatment by scholarship. (Note also that the article entitled "Torah" is included in the series on Judaism, whereas this article is included in the Christianity series)

I also feel it is more appropriate to discuss ideas important to Christian theological tradition (such as Documentary Hypothesis, interpretation by Paul, etc.) in a specifically devoted page than in a page dedicated to Rabbinical and Jewish traditions.

--Samalk 06:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)