Talk:Pen-y-Gwryd

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I didn't start this discussion or the article and I apologize in advance for any toes I've stood on. There's been good work on this article by all contributors, would welcome more and as diverse information as possible. (Gowron 19:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC))

I am glad to see the extra information about the Everest and Kangchenjunga associations and especially the additional photographs. Many thanks. You mentioned Chris Briggs on a subject line but not in the text so I have added him to the hotel history, a real oversight. The mountain rescue plaque is still there but I cannot find an internet reference to P-y-G in that connexion. I think I prefer the 'thumbs' standard size. NoelWalley 22:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right about the size of the size of the pictures and the reorganisation is better. Nice touch bringing in Chris Briggs and the mountain rescue. I have some more pictures of the time that Chris was in charge, with him actually on a mountain rescue, I've also got a picture on Chris with Ed Hillary (its a little battered and needs scanning and then a clean). His daugther Jane runs Pen-y-Gwryd with her husband Brian. I think their children, now grown up, are now getting actively involved as well. There is quite few famous film stars who stayed there, one being "Jack Hawkins". (Gowron 09:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC))

It would be great, perhaps too much to hope for, to have a group photograph of the Everest team? The hotel has a good web-site of its own (and this is linked) with its own history and pictures of the Lockwoods and the Briggs. My own feelings are that it would be too "commercial" for the wiki article to develop much further as an article about the hotel, its present activities and its other former guests. NoelWalley 10:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I can find quite a few originals, maybe one early and one later on. I was rather sad to see my old man looking so ill on the Kangchenjunga photo I'll have a look for an earlier one where more members we alive also, mentally he was as sharp as ever. Agreed on the article's length and content. I started two knew articles today, Owen Wyn Owen (Babs fame) and Evan Roberts (Botanist) (both from Capel Curig), but very early days as yet. It will be interesting to follow this, as it looks as though Capel Curig has had more than its fair share of famous people. I'll get onto the Everest shot right away. (Gowron 12:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC))

Sorry you have removed it, I thought it a great asset. NoelWalley 17:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Noel, my fault I felt a little guilty about that one as it was not in reality mine to give away at this juncture, although I will ask for persmission. Even though the phtographer is not known, it did come from a source I need to check out. Did you take a look at the other two new images. If I get the ok, I'll put it back. (Gowron 19:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC))

Robin, they are just great! If you can get permission to reinstate the B&W, it serves to illustrate the North Wales contribution to the planning and the training for these great achievements - not just the later celebrations! Good luck! NoelWalley 20:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

"North Wales contribution to mountaineering and exploration" good point, on that note how do you think I should go about penning an article concerning the training (climbing and Ice climbing in full kit) done in North Wales and the Oxygen equipement testing, which I have the imnages for as well, in and around Snowdon but also at Helyg? It will either need a new title to provide and umbarella to get all the information under OR do you think at this point a book/booklete should be put together. My father was quoted on the BBC just a few weeks bfore he died, about how good Wales had been to him and how essential the training in Wales had been for these expeditions. Lots and lots of quotations. Jamie Owen's Wales was the program. Jamie also played back other and different excerpts from his Radio show as well. (Gowron 21:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC))

Contents 1 Gwynedd Catagory 2 Pen-y-Gwryd is a place in the landscape of Gwynedd, not just an hotel 3 Origins of the name 4 Some Research 5 The name Pen-y-Gwryd

[edit] Gwynedd Catagory

Anybody agree that we need to have a better catagory for Gwynedd than "Geography of Gwynedd", Gwynedd does have Geography, it also has Geology, its own Language, History & Pre-history, Transport, Mountain activities, Sailing, Artists, Writers, etc, etc. Of each catagory listed above there are many instances. Seems far too thin too encompass Gwnedd purely under Geography. (Gowron 15:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC))

Well there is a catagory Gwynedd, unfortunately they look unorganised, there's a lot of crosstalk. (Gowron 11:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC))

Added "Tourism in Gwynedd" as a subcategory of Gwynedd. Tells us more and permits a greater freedom to add articles to that category. (Gowron 20:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Pen-y-Gwryd is a place in the landscape of Gwynedd, not just an hotel

When I expanded this article from a mere stub to three modest paragraphs in June 2006 I was keen to show three aspects of Pen-y-Gwryd (there may of course be more):

1. That Pen-y-Gwryd is a physical location, a watershed, the head of a mountain pass (head of Nant Gwryd) and notably the site of an historic Roman marching camp.
2. That it is famous for the Pen-y-Gwryd Hotel which is in reality a quite ordinary Welsh country inn made famous by the people who stayed there not because of what it is but of where it is (the photo of the hotel was mine).
3. That the place is well known by that name as a starting point of or staging post on a number of walking routes in Snowdonia.

I am delighted that the hotel aspect has been expanded significantly by one well qualified to do so, indeed I feel he could well expand it with advantage even further. But I am disturbed that he is trying to turn the article into one referring only to the hotel. The point I wish to preserve is that Pen-y-Gwryd existed as a place, which could be called by that name and recognised as such long before the farmhouse (that subsequently became the inn that was later called the Pen-y-Gwryd Hotel) was built. Indeed, the place would still bear that name even if the proprietors at some time decided (as I know they are quite free to do) to give their hotel an entirely different name.

I would ask that the article be returned to the balanced form that it had immediately before the changes of today. NoelWalley 19:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The name "Pen-y-Gwryd" is synonymous with the Hotel (see current OS reference as one example, I have one from 1955 with the same information).

The problem and it is this, its like the name "Nant Gynant" being synonymous with "Gwynant Pass" or valley, Nant Gwynant does not translate to "Gwynant Pass", which the Pen-y-Gwryd overlooks. Nant Gwynant (River or brook Gwynant) is a small stretch of river further down the valley, in Welsh strictly speaking it, the valley, should be something like "Dyffryn Gwynant". Can't have it both ways. The Hotel could clearly, given the translation of "Pen-y-Gwryd", be called "Pen-y-Cynnyd" since that river starts there also.

Having lived in site of the Hotel beginning in 1957, (See Dyffryn Mymbyr) we never used the name "Pen-y-Gwryd" as going to the "Top" or "Head of the Gwryd" (the river Gwryd, nantygwryd) it has always mean't the hotel, "The Gwryd" is another term used by the locals for the place.

Walkers and so forth would use OS maps and the like to get to the hotel parking, where it states "Pen-y-Gwryd Hotel" and "Roman camp". Either side there are references to Nantycynnyd and Nantygwryd they are both rivers. The car park by the road is not even on the NantyGwryd side of the saddle, its on the Nantycynnyd side.

The Hotel is far from ordinary and has writeups from all over the world (search on Google), eccentric possibly, but quite different from all other hotels in the area, anyone visiting the hotel/pub/bar or having dinner there would quickly realize.

The roman camp is interesting, but I don't think the Romans would have called their camp "Pen-y-Gwryd".

IMPORTANT: An understanding of what the Welsh words mean, and what they relate to is pivotal. Perhaps a little more research of the word Gwryd would shed some light. Pen y Gwryd just means, the TOP or HEAD of the river Gwryd (Nantygwryd), which is fed by Lockwoods lake! soem way off (which is not named on the map), which probably should have the Welsh name "Llyn Gwryd" but there is no reference to that, which is sad as the Welsh name sounds better and more apt. The location of Pen-y-Gwryd may well be a watershed, but Pen-y-Gwryd does not mean that at all.

Your photo is a good one, but it serves as testimony to the only named structure "Pen-y-Gwryd" at the location at the watershed, as said Pen-y-Gwryd (Top of the River Gwryd) is actually some way off down Dyffryn Mymbyr on the other side of the lake. I am happy to make up an illustration from an OS map and circle the relevant objects.

Again I apologize for the way I write, I mean no offence, but I've been digging up my Septic tank for two days.

So I would be oppose to the motion for many reasons.(Gowron 05:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC))

I wish I could see the problem. I only ask that the first paragraph establish, as is quite proper, Pen-y-Gwyrd as a location, a place in Wales with an historic Roman Marching Camp of archaeological importance and a Victorian hotel, if indeed there is nothing else of merit there (which could be disputed). Why have you reverted me twice?

The marching camp is not part of the hotel but is always said to be at Pen-y-Gwyrd. So too the road junction. I established this over seven months ago and four months before your first edit of this site. The Pen-y-Gwryd bus stop (its in the timetable) is not outside the hotel. Pen-y-Gwyrd is one end of a Turnpike road re-built in 1805 from Capel Curig to Pen-y-Gwyrd. That is six years before the farmhouse and over 40 years before the Inn that later became the hotel.

I too love the hotel and its food and its traditional charm and above all it mountaineering connections and you have written about that very well.

This is not a matter of semantics, its a matter of geography. Pen-y-Gwryd was there before the hotel. That fact detracts not one jot from the hotel - rather it enhances it. NoelWalley 16:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Since Gowron has resumed editing (excellent work on the Roman Camp) without further consideration of my claim, I have entered the prior date of the turnpike and re-established the article as one concerned with the locality not just a rather famous hotel. NoelWalley 12:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong I like tha way you write, the problem is that you are introducing a POV, there is nothing on current maps to support what your point of view. What we have to do is state what is there and back that up. As stated Pen-y-Gwryd in not at that site you claim it about 300 yards away on the oterh side of the lake. As also stated the saddle is at the head of two river or brooks both couls quite happily claim the name to the location depending on which way you are look at it, i.e. from the Gwynant Valley or from Dyffryn Mymbyr.

If you actually went to Pen-y-Gwryd you would be standing in a few feet of water.

Pen-y-Pass is designated on the map, Pen-y-Gwryd is not, and for good reason.

If you have mapped evidence to support you Point Of View (I'm not fond of POV, but there it is) then post it and we will go quite. Remember also Bronze Age People who lived in the area before the Celt would not have used Pen-y-Gwryd, and neither would the Romans. So the your point is pretty much unsustabtiated. So I'm going to have to revert for the moment. May be we could enlist the help of other experts, or even ask Ordanace Survey for an answer, I am prepared to do that.

I think I've given a much fuller and longer responce to all points based on what we can read. {Gowron 12:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC))

Would you like me to conact Ordanace Survery fo clarification?. I'm going to have to leave Wikiperdia alone for a short while, I have two work related projects to finish. Cheers (Gowron 12:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Origins of the name

I have seen the recent debate (above), but have been so busy this last week that I was unable to join in. I see that the intro has been changed again since I last looked, but here's my tuppence worth ....

No official map that I know of labels the location as Pen-y-gwryd, but the hotel is always named. Having said that, the area clearly has a significance going back many centuries, and the Roman camp aside, it was for a long time an important junction of routes. As such, it must surely have had a name, but unless someone can provide an old map (or other evidence) pre-dating the hotel, this might remain a mystery.

That said, I've just found a paragraph in The Mountains of Snowdonia (by Carr & Lister, 1925) regarding the name. I quote verbatim :

“

Pen-y-Gwryd is a name of innocent appearance, but bristling with difficulties. It might be supposed to mean the head of Nant y Gwryd - the valley of the river Gwryd. But the name of the river is Mymbyr. [my note: maps I have seen both before and after the date of this book show it as Nantygwryd or Nant Gwryd.] D.E. Jenkins [author of Beddgelert, its Facts, Fairies and Folklore, 1899] speaks of a tradition that it receives its name from one Gwryd, who, according to the Verses of the Graves, is buried in the valley. There are two persons of the name mentioned in the Verses, but in neither case is this valley clearly indicated. Moreover, the article seems out of place, and we should expect to get "Nant Gwryd" simply, whereas as far back as the twelfth century the word "Chwmygoret" appears in the Aberconwy Charter. In addition to the farmland of Cwm y Gwryd, the charter refers to "kemen trinemt, and gwryt, kei, on either side of the Degymm". Kemen trinemt is rendered by Jenkins "Cefn Trawsnant", and gwryt kei "Cae Gwryd". The Degymm, which he suggests is Daugwm, seems at first sight to be the stream running south from Pen-y-Gwryd to join the Afon Trawsnant. But the word Kemen may stand for cymau, the old plural of cwm, in which case the Degymm may signify the ridge between the two cwms, and Cwm y Gwryd would be contained within the triangle Bwlch y Gwyddel - Pen-y-Gwryd - Pont Goleugoed. The word gwryd means a man's length, or fathom, but is also used to mean manliness, or valour, and Rhys makes a long shot and suggests that "gwryt kei" commemorates some valorous feat on the part of the famous Kei, who figures so prominently in Arthurian legend. The eastern boundary of the monk's land ran up the Nant y Llys, the name of which suggests a palace of some sort in the neighbourhood of Pen-y-Gwryd.

”

All the above aside, we have to agree that neither the hotel nor the immediate area around it is actually the "Head of the Gwryd (river)". However, this area _is_ the "head of the Gwryd (valley)". Because so many place names (and their meanings) have changed over time, and on top of this there is colloquial usage, we could argue things like this for a long time.

I'm sure that some of the above quote could be incorporated into the Wikipedia article, but one thing is certain, namely that whilst the Pen-y-gwryd _is_ a hotel, the name is also synonymous with the place. I have literally dozens of books, both old and modern, walking books and history books, which refer to Pen-y-gwryd (as opposed to _the_ Pen-y-gwryd [hotel]) as a location. (Note that the above quote does so too.)

I don't have time currently to edit the article. But given the evidence, I leave it up to you as to whether PYG is a hotel, the name of which is now used to indicate the area, or whether PYG is the area, which has given its name to the hotel. Hogyn Lleol 18:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

That was a quick piece of research, well done. Does anybody think it would a good idea to meet at PYG and have a pint and chat about it (when its dry, yes you may laugh), if not the beer would go down well all the same. I have written to both the Ordnance Survey as to why they don't label the location , I've also written to Gwynedd County Council to see if there are historical records that they have that may help also. One thing I probably ought to clear up is that, when I refer to "Pen-y-Gwryd Hotel", I'm refering to the only building that is there bearing that name, it could just as easily be "Pen-y-Gwryd Chapel" (if there was one, there currently is one but I don't know how old), i.e. what I mean is the structure(s) that exist there not specifically a Hotel (which just happens to be there). I've also made an attempt to translate the words. Would be nice to get some closure, someday. (Gowron 20:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Some Research

1. I've contacted Ordnance Survey with the above question regarding Pen-y-Gwryd they replied with the following:

"Unfortunately we are unable to say exactly where the head of the river is. Further more all information on names of places and lakes comes from the local authority." They do not use "Gwryd Valley" they only have information regarding the river NantyGwryd.

2. I also contacted Gwynedd Council's archive section, even given the preliminary nature of my request they replied:

There were no references in the county place names index to "Pen-y-Gwryd", it does mean the "head, source or top" of the Nantygwryd and that would have its source at Llyn Cym-ffynnon as the river goes no where near the Hotel. There is a stream which has been created for the use of the Hotel which flows into Llyn Lockwood (apparently), that location is not the head of the NantyGwryd.

The council's early maps do not show a Gwryd/Gwrhyd Valley, the river NantyGwryd is within "Dyffryn Mymbyr" Vale or Valley of Mymbyr. Ther are references to "Dyffryn", "Dyffryn Mymbyr as a farm and also a Turnpike. I'm off to get copies of these maps and early texts on the subject, mostly just for my own interest as they might shed light on other related issues to do with Capel Curig and onto Ogwen.

The archive people did give me a lot of suggestions and other places to look, the problem is I live in Scotland and don't get back to North Wales much and cannot physically go into the archive.

Bellow is a snippet of an early map of the area in question, its alow resolution map of the area in the 1800s that can be found on the internet. The map seems to support the council's comments. "Pont-y-Gwrhyd" (the Gwryd Bridge) crosses the road some way off down the valley, also suggesting that Nantygwryd does not start at Llyn Lockwood but at Llyn Cwn-ffynnon.

(Gowron 12:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

Observations

The above map cannot be earlier than c1847 and probably much later since the property is described as a hotel.

We are writing about Pen-y-Gwryd not Nantygwryd and so the location of the start of the river is not too important in this. The name however is used not only by a hotel and a farmhouse before it but also as the name for a mountain pass and there is evidence for this. By your reasoning, if the pass cannot be called Pen-y-Gwryd then neither can the hotel.

The National Screen & Sound Archive of Wales is quite clear the name applies

1. to the mountain pass and

2. with the suffix hotel to that property. See:

http://screenandsound.llgc.org.uk/cronfa/place.php?place=752

That PYG is a place as well as a hotel only enhances the hotel's name. It is the hotel of this place and named after it. The alternative is to assume that the original proprietor either invented the name or named it, like so many hotels after some place elsewhere that they liked.

NoelWalley 15:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be deliberately avoiding Gwynedd County Archive information or most things you don't agree with, i.e I don't not seek to "highjack" the article, I'm presenting DATA and NOT POV. I not sure you understand where and what Pen-y-Gwryd is and why it is important. Yes you have a point of view, but we are not permitted POV. I have no real problem with PASS although its not much of one, but the location of Pen-y-Gwryd in actually is not there as stated by Gwynedd County Council. The only thing there are buildings with that name, once gone there would be no name on the map at all at that spot. I could just as easily name my house Pen-y-Gwryd, but like the hotel it would not relate too the name and thats all it is. I'm not concerned with the hotel but structures, as just as every map states are buildings with that name. I have not finished by far with reading on this subject, so there will be more to come. (Gowron 16:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

I am not avoiding anything. I have presented additional evidence. In the matter of POV, we are required to present a neutral point of view, one that is comprehensive not narrow. To say that Pen-y-Gwryd is the name of a hotel and only that is a very narrow POV when evidence indicates otherwise. A Welsh gazetteer says it is a 'bwlch/pass' (of course it is not a major pass). The Roman Marching Camp has no other name or address (of course it is not a major camp). Even the Gwynedd Council bus stop with its own lay-by is called Pen-y-Gwryd with no mention of hotel. NoelWalley 17:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I present facts only and what you are saying is not strictly supportable. The Gwynedd County Council Archive service provided this information, I have also found exactly the same information from other sources. The image below shows where Pen-y-Gwryd actually is and its about a mile in a straight line from the Pen-y-Gwryd Hotel as you can see.

Type Pen-y-Gwryd into www.streetmap.co.uk (a front end to Ordnance Survey) - as a place and select Land Feature, the resultant map & pointer takes you to the real location of Pen-y-Gwryd (or just cut and past the following link).

(http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=265500&y=355500&z=3&sv=265500,355500&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=265356&ay=356804)

The reason you don’t find Pen-y-Gwryd as a place on any map, at the location your specifying, is because its not there, it is about a mile away up CwmFfynnon. I'm just going to keep on presening facts, I won't be editing the main article until the evidence is just too great, its pretty clear right now. (Gowron 10:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

The Roman Marching Camp is very well documented, its location is well known, the hotel is in just one part of it. It is always called the Pen-y-Gwryd Roman Marching Camp and on-line documentation doesn't get much better than this: http://www.gtj.org.uk/item.php?lang=en&id=347&t=1 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NoelWalley (talk • contribs) 10:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

Sorry, I will sign now NoelWalley 11:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a very dear friend learned in Welsh (I am not) who took his School Certificate exams in 1937, earlier than I did, and he writes as follows:

I have a little book by Dr Ifor Williams called 'Enwau Lleol' Place Names in English. He examined me in about 1937 for my Welsh Oral at O level. He was a lovely man and put me immediately at my ease. He was also erudite as I think I will now show. He refers to a Charter of Llewelyn the Great to the Monastery at Maenan, in 1240. In the charter come the words 'Gwryt Kei' Kei was the chief officer at the court of Arthur. The meaning of the word 'gwryd' is the same as 'fathom' in English. The measurement is the distance between a man's finger tips when his arms are outstretched on both side of his body. One must suppose that gwryd would in ancient times be the area that a Lord could command or if he was a giant!!. It would seem that gwryd is an area of land and not a fixed point.

In support of his theory he quotes from a couplet by Iean Brydydd Hir and I write in Welsh so that you can see the use of the word gwryd.

Y Gwr a roes y gwryd,

Ar y groes dros bumoes byd.

He refers to Christ upon the Cross with arms outstretched for all mankind. He has some other references too but it would seem that this word goes much further back in time than any of us could have imagined.

With thanks to my learned friend, I submit that Pen-y-gwyrd is a place, at the head of a pass, with a road junction and a Roman camp and a very fine hotel. NoelWalley 14:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The Street Map feature is most interesting but I think somebody should tell them that the arrow pointing to:

Pen-y-Gwryd Hotel, Gwynedd actually points beyond the Roman Camp in quite the opposite direction to either hotel or camp. and also the arrow pointing to: Pen-y-Gwryd Hotel, Gwynedd [Other Named Place] actually sits on top of the hotel name and points away from both hotel and Roman Camp. NoelWalley 20:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The name Pen-y-Gwryd

Gwynedd Council in a Public Roadworks Bulletin dated 27 November 2006 give the following address for temporary traffic lights in connection with bridge strengthening works: A498 Pont Pen-y-Gwryd, Pen-y-Gwryd, Beddgelert.

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:cozgbF4qGecJ:www.gwynedd.gov.uk/upload/public/attachments/862/Roadworks_bulletin_27th_November_2006_2.pdf+A498+road+pen+y+gwryd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=uk

Conwy Council in its published minutes of the Winter road gritting schedules list the following length (which actually goes beyond the Conwy boundary and the hotel to the A498 junction):

Left onto A4086 Capel Curig to Penygwryd Jct A498. Turn around and free travel back to Jct A5 Capel Curig.

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:FVColgkdT9MJ:www.conwy.gov.uk/E_MINUTES/e_post2002/e_cabinet/e_reports/04Winter%2520Maintenance%2520Policy.pdf+A498+road+pen+y+gwryd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=40&gl=uk

These together with the Roman Camp and other evidence above provide adequate proof that the name is not restricted to the hotel but is used officially as a location name and it would be incorrect for the Wikipedia article to restrict the name to the hotel.NoelWalley 22:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Noel, please don't missunderstand I'm trying to be reasonable and I think its important to say that i appreciate YOU, but buss stops, gritting lorries don't carry much weight with regards to 2000 and latter 200 years of history of the area. I also have both and A and B versions of the old poem (Speculum Vol 13 No. 1 Jan 1938 pp. 38-51, written by Mary Williams), the only thing that has any relevance or makes any sense is "I would wade a ford" in reference to Gwryd in version A (Wynnstay, I, 91 Melwas). Ford on Welsh translates to "Rhyd". The river was not named Gwryd as is born out by Llewelyn's charter. The river was named Mymbyr! atthat time and starts at Llyn Cwnffynnon and hence as a result there is no valley name Gwryd, even a river?, but just possibly here is a ford where people crossed, somewhere below Pont-y-Gwrhyd where a bridge did not initialy exist. Writers often describe how difficult the terain was in the 1750's onwards. Other than that what you personnaly state has very little bearing. I will not overwrite the the initial paragraph, I will keep applying weight to the facts (the name, the hotel, the geography, its historical fact. There is a lot more literary gravitas to be added, but even though I was brought up in the valley, and know the people at either end of the valley . . . . it surely must count for something?. (Gowron 00:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC))

Robin, My concern and that of others is that the name has a wider meaning applicable to the locality not just to the hotel and that is satisfied by the first paragraph and by the Roman Camp paragraph. I certainly do not wish to mention bus stops or gritting lorries in the article. I mention them in the discussion (as surely is obvious) to show that the name is used locally and in local authority minutes and public notices to indicate the locality as well as the hotel.

You continue to add interesting material and pictures. Did Joseph Grifith spell his name thus? Why do you add Description before your captions? Best wishes NoelWalley 08:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Morning Noel, its busy here, I've taken on too much work (self emp-loyed). I'm so glad we have both calmed a little on this. I underatand what it is you are trying to get accross (and I suppose if I'm really honest with myself I'm not really against it), what I am interested in is whether it is accurate with regard to the name "Pen-y-Gwryd" "what it is"/"where it is" and the history ( the name Gwryd or Gw-rhyd is a relatively late addition to the area). I have enjoyed doing some reading, the "The Mountains of Snowdonia" is a MUST have, just for the read alone, if I had the mnoney I would send you one but they can fetch £70 plus. Suffice to say you have informatin regarding Gwynedd minutes, my guess is thats just a way of dealing with describing what goes on there. But historicaly, and I'll continue to check with the University of Cardiff (who did a study on Pen-y-Gwryd) and I'll contact Jane Pullee for their take as well. Another book of note is by "Thomas Pennant" but I don't have a copy at this time.

To crystalize my point, is that there is no marked place "Pen-y-Gwryd" or "Gwrhyd", "Pen-y-Gwryd" means the top of the Nantygwryd river (there is no Gwryd Valley the entire valley is Dyffryn Mymbyr as the river (now Nantygwryd) was called originally Mymbyr which starts at Llyn Cwmffynnon (Llewelyn's charter), also Esmie Firbanks/Kirby's house is called "Dyffryn Mymbyr" which is towards the middle of the Nantygwryd, the house dates back to 1350, suggesting some later intervention in that location. Given these data, and a host of others, it is probably safe to state that it is the longevity and fame of the Hotel and its guests (and their writings) that has brought about the situation where "Pen-y-Gwryd" is used by itself without refering to the hotel, i.e. the hotel (or as I would prefer "entity") has become the donator of the name to the location.

The name "Joseph Grifith" came out of "A short History of The Royal Hotel" produced by "the Royal Hotel", its a small booklet and I am premitted to scan pieces of it since its over a 100 years old and send these on if you would like some of it.

The Description tag is there purely as some Wiki users have used it and I've just copied the template, no great thought has gone into it, I'll stop if its annoying.

Thanks for the typo corrections, it is irritating to find them, I would if possible like to put back the 3 photos of the Everest and Kangchenjunga into the relevant section, i.e where the text relating to them is in the article, it was Stemonitis's idea and I quite liked it as it was functional. I can experiment with the spacing. Anyway thanks for the corrections and best regards. (Gowron 11:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC))