Talk:Pasty

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Contents 1 DUPE! 2 Pronunciation 3 Mexico 4 Pronunciation and Michigan 5 Fast food? 6 Improvements 7 History 8 Fillings 9 Proposal to move to "Pasty" 10 The Savoury / Sweet Pasty 11 Rewrite 12 Photo 13 "Oggy" 14 Bill Bryson 15 Pasty tongue 16 Pasties (nipple covering) 17 Swede and turnip

[edit] DUPE!

This article needs to be combined with "Pastie." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.216.11.5 (talk) 17:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Not a dupe, those two articles discuss two very different foods with different spellings. Ben W Bell talk 17:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ben. The distinction between these two articles needs to be maintained. Poltair 20:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I corrected the pronunciaton (the cart analogy is incorrect - it is pronounced "pass-tee", not "parse-tee" (unless you're a Londoner))

Thanks, comparing the "a" to "past" makes sense. However I do think you misunderstood the original intent -- the "a" is pronounced like the "a" in "cart", not like the "ar" in "cart". The vowel is (to my ear) the same as in "past" anyhow, so no problem. -- dcclark (talk) 16:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is incorrect at the moment. I have never heard pasty pronounced p-ah-sty (as the word past is properly pronounced, eg queens english). It is always pronounced p-a-sty, as the word past is more commonly pronounced by certain people (as americans would pronounce ass). Timb0h 11:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, we clearly have some cross-cultural problems here. :) I agree with you, since (as a Yooper) I pronounce it p-a-sty, as in "ass". I think the key is not how you do pronounce it, but that it is not pronounced with a hard a, as in paste. Perhaps that is all we should say in the article. -- dcclark (talk) 16:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want a Cornish pronunciation, it's "paasty", as in "ass". Elsewhere in Britain you might hear "parsty" as in "arse", but it's not common and generally sneered at. I agree that as long as it's not pronounced "paysty" then we're doing OK. Bretonbanquet 19:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We clearly have issues with the way the pronunciation should be explained. I for one do not pronounce 'pasty' to rhyme with 'nasty'... Bretonbanquet 22:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Bretonbanquet, I cant believe that you say that pasty doesnt rhyme with nasty. If you say it doesn't rhyme with 'nasty' please supply a word it does rhyme with. Talskiddy 21:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It doesn’t rhyme with the way those of us in the South East say nasty. However, I guess we say pasty like Northerners say nasty. Bombot 08:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you agree that it does NOT sound like "paste"? I think that perhaps the only thing we CAN say in the article is that the "a" is not hard. -- dcclark (talk) 00:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely - as I said above, as long as it's not pronounced "paysty" we're doing OK. I'm only really happy with the short flat "a" as in "ass", but if some people want to lengthen the "a" as in "arse", then I'm not going to start a row over it. It was fine with what you had before Talskiddy's edit. Bretonbanquet 13:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

For reasearch puposes I had a look for pasty poems on the web to see what rhymes with 'pasty'. I'm afraid it was the best one I could find!

THE SOUTHERN PASTY POEM from Wilf Lunn's webpage. [1]
Hair lair thair. I do declare, a stall that's selling parsties.
Well I’m agarst; they’re selling farst. I wonder what the corst is.
Hay say young Miss, may hay arsk is that your ver’ larst parsty?
And is it larst becors it’s parst it’s tame and its gorn narsty?
Or is it cors you’ve scoffed the lort? I see you’ve increased varstly.
Please examine your ass in a looking glarse, you’ll find it’s facking garstly.

(I should say the accent for the above poem is a posh English accent not a Cornish one) Talskiddy 09:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mexico

The immigration of English coal miners to 19th century Mexico brought the pasty to the city of Pachuca, where it is common, although served with ingredients never thought of in England such as jalapeno peppers.

Cool. But are you sure they weren't tin miners? Cornwall had plenty of tin mines but not many coal mines. Mind you I suppose it wouldn't be hard to switch from one to the other. Mintguy (T) 02:50, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It was probably coal miners who brought the pasty to Mexico, but it was Cornish tin miners that would have introduced the pasty to the coal miners.

With respect, it's more likely to have been tin miners: first, there are no coal mines in Cornwall; second, many Cornish tin miners (and mine owners) went to Central and South America to work in the silver mines. There's a pub in Long Rock, Cornwall called the Mexico Inn, the original owner having made his fortune in the Mexican silver mines. Further, tin mining and coal mining are totally different skills; coal is a relatively soft substance which forms the whole of the mined seam, whereas tin occurs as an ore in narrow veins, in a hard rock matrix. Sbz5809 13:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

It has been said though in any mine in the world you'll find a Cornishman at the bottom. And I know many ex-Cornish miners who moved overseas after the tin dried up took up a huge range of different mining type jobs, not nessecarily just tin mining. - Ryuujin (Falmouth, Cornwall ;p)

[edit] Pronunciation and Michigan

To a recent anonymous editor: why is the pronunciation irrelevant? I want to know how unfamiliar words are pronounced, and I think lots of other people do too. (I think most people who aren't familiar with "pasty" are likely to get it wrong, incidentally. Until I found out, I thought it was pronounced like "having to do with paste".) And why is popularity in Michigan irrelevant? If someone encounters a reference to pasties in Michigan, wouldn't he or she want to be able to find it in an encyclopedia and want to know whether it's related to the Cornish version? —JerryFriedman 18:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You can't really tell people how to pronounce it, as there are many different pronunciations. Being from the North of England, I would pronounce it pas-ty, while people from the South-East would pronounce it par-sty while the Cornish would pronounce it paaa-sty. And people who aren't native English speakers wouldn't necessarily know how to pronounce any word that you compare it to. If you really want to talk about the pronunciation, perhaps you could spell it phonetically. If you were to list everywhere in the world where Cornish Pasties are popular, it'd be a rather large list. I suspect that in most places where they are sold they are called "Cornish Pasties" anyway and entering just "pasty" will find this article. David Johnson 00:49, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

All of your examples rhyme with "nasty" in their respective dialects, right? Anyway, I really do want to talk about the pronunciation, so I'll use your suggestion of adding phonetic spelling (SAMPA, and Kirshenbaum if it doesn't get unwieldy.)

As for other places in the world, the odd thing is Cornish pasties are not popular throughout the U.S., like pizza and bratwurst and moo shu pork, but just in one state. Maybe that's also true in Mexico. Do you know other places where they're popular? I think the list would be interesting. —JerryFriedman 19:52, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, "pastie" does not rhyme with "nasty" in all dialects. For example, I would pronounce "pastie" as /p{sti/ (SAMPA), and "nasty" as /nAsti/ /nA:sti/. (I am not sure that I got the SAMPA notation correct, but I am sure that the letter "a" represents very different sounds in the two words.) —AlanBarrett 20:15, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Just make my life hard! I think your SAMPA's right, and I think those are the two pronunciations to mention. Apparently Australians say /pAsti/. And they're found in more places in the U.S. than I thought, so I'm no longer so interested in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan . —JerryFriedman 00:25, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Your reference to Australian pronunciation made me see an error in my SAMPA notation: I think I meant /nA:sti/, not /nAsti/. BTW, I am South African. —AlanBarrett 21:35, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the distinction between [A:] and [A] is more detail than I'd want to get into in this article. (I used [] rather than // because I'm not convinced it's phonemic in English, though I don't know much about Australian accents. Anyway, I see that we're now supposed to use real IPA, so... I'll get back to this eventually. —JerryFriedman 22:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Upon reading the article for the first time today I was about to remove the Michigan reference, when I checked this page and found an apparent controversy. So rather than delete it, I'll add a comment here: the status quo is not good. Either Michigan needs to go, or that paragraph needs a brief introduction explaining what relevance Michigan has to Cornish pasties. —too lazy to register, 24:32, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The pasty is tremendously popular in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, especially as a tourist item. I personally have not found anywhere near the same popularity elsewhere in the Midwestern United States or Canada (I look for them anywhere I go for more than a few days). If anyone can provide evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested. In my opinion, the reference should stand, as the U.P. (seems to be) the major source of pastys outside of Cornwall. -- dcclark

Agree with dcclark. I've never heard of pasties except in relation to the U.P. (where there are simply "pasties" and not "Cornish pasties". Haven't come across them anywhere else in the U.S. (though to be honest I'm not that familiar with areas outside of the midwest). older≠wiser 14:49, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

I've seen pasties on menus in at least the following places: Boston, MA (Cornwall's Pub); Half Moon Bay, CA; Victoria, BC; Salt Lake City, UT. But nowhere are they as common as in Upper Michigan, where there are not only stands that sell nothing but pasties as take-out fast food, but you can also buy them at regular restaurants, bakeries, and supermarkets, and even church fund-raisers! It really is the ubiquitous regional food in the area. Also check out pasty.com, where you can have pasties shipped to you. dr.frog

I agree with the previous comments. Removing the U.P. from the pasty article would be a shame. Pasties in the U.P. are one of the most important parts of our culture. We have more pasty shops and stands than fast food restaurants. They aren't even really 'special,' they are simply normal. You go to a football game and the concession stand always has pasties. Church fundraisers, pasties; potlucks, pasties; deer camp, pasties. If you talk to pasty shop owners they will tell you that they have shipped pasties everywhere in this country because you can't find a better pasty in the U.S.

Following up my own post, I found a scholarly article on the history of the pasty in the UP, which I have linked from the article page. dr.frog

[edit] Fast food?

Gee, I never would have thought of pasties as fast food. While they are sometimes available at kiosks or takeaway shops, the actually preparation of pasties is not exactly fast and in general pasties are not nearly as unhealthful as what I think most people associate with more typical fast foods. older≠wiser 02:34, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I think this is sloppy writing. Lupin 03:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Pasties are extremely popular and "touristy," but they don't share any other characteristics with fast food. --Dcclark 16:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. They're a cultural equivalent of fast food in the Westcountry, at least. Growing up near Plymouth, going into town on a Saturday, and it'd generally be a choice between Ivor Dewdney's (a pasty), Wimpy (burger) or KFC. (We usually went for an oggy, of course.) Similarly, in London's rail termini, the only kinds of food sold are burger outlets, pastry shops and pasty shops. There are definitely some similarities. — OwenBlacker 10:16, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

My experiences are only in the Upper Peninsula, but they are definitely not a fast food item there. Perhaps we should emphasize the difference in perception between the UP and the Westcountry, as they seem to have evolved differently since the mid-19th century! —dcclark (talk) 23:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

No I agree with the view put over in the document to quote Wikipedia's own article:

Fast food is food which is prepared and served quickly at outlets called fast-food restaurants. It is a multi-billion dollar industry which continues to grow rapidly in many countriesItalic text'

Most pasties (In Cornwall at least which *is* their native "habitat" ;p), tend to be sold through bakeries or confectionaries in a ready to eat state. I know I used to pick up one at lunchtime very often and eat it on-the-move or in the office. I moved abroard a few years back (Being born and lived in Cornwall for 18 years), and it's only outside of Cornwall do you ever see pasties treated as "a meal" (ie. knives and forks) as opposed to eaten like a burger in the hand. -- Ryuujin 80.242.32.51 17:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The key attributes of fast food are that you get it not long after you ordered it and can eat it on the move. There are plenty of pasty outlets that supply pasties like this, throughout the UK. There’s nothing wrong with saying pasties can be bought as a kind of fast food. I mean, come one, just like the sandwich the thing is designed to be eaten by hand Bombot 08:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

If so, the description needs to be explicit that it's not a worldwide phenomenon. You can't get pasties as a fast food in the UP, for example, or pretty much anywhere else mentioned. -- dcclark (talk) 13:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree it should be explicit that pasties as fast food aren't a worldwide phenomenon. However, besides the UK (I've bought pasties at London Victoria myself) you can buy pasties as fast food, at Mexico City bus stations. (don't try them, they aren't kept hot enough, in either place) Tubezone 07:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements

I think with a few improvements we could maybe get this article to featured article status...
I think it needs splitting up into sections: maybe there could be a section for the history, then a section for each of the places in which they are sold (UK, US and Mexico)? What do people think?
We also really need a picture. I keep meaning to take one, but unfortunately I can't make a pasty last long enough for me to photograph it :-) David Johnson [T|C] 23:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've got a few in the freezer right now (sigh, frozen pasties...) -- I'll take a pic of the next one I cook. —dcclark (talk) 22:36, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Added a photo, yay! Unfortunately, it's a bit blurry -- my camera was a tad too close, I think. But this will do for now. —dcclark (talk) 02:38, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Great photo, but is the best we can do for a Westcountry food a photo from the U.S.?  ;o) — OwenBlacker 10:16, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

How about this? Sbz5809 12:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

With some cropping, that pic will be quite nice. I'd like to see both stand, as Upper Peninsula pasties aren't exactly the same as the original Cornish ones. —dcclark (talk) 23:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I specifically left it un-cropped to indicate scale. Sbz5809 13:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Would someone care to explain why that image has been deleted. Sbz5809 09:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've found out why. Apparently, my requirement that anyone can use it free but no-one can sell it is unacceptable. How stupid is that? Sbz5809 08:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not about whether people can sell the image or not - it's about whether people can use the image to sell something - i.e. if someone wanted to use it on a site advertising pasties for sale, that wouldn't have been allowed by your terms. All the text on Wikipedia may be freely distributed, edited etc. If we allow images with restrictions we end up in a situation where whole articles may not be copied and distributed, which defeats the whole point of what Wikipedia is attempting to achieve - a freely usable, editable, distributable encyclopedia.

Anyhow, I'll try and get a replacement photo of a Cornish Pasty next week. David Johnson [T|C] 21:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

"if someone wanted to use it on a site advertising pasties for sale, that wouldn't have been allowed by your terms." That was my intention; I don't mind the fact that I'm not allowed to benefit from it but it's stupid to expect me to allow everyone else to do so. Sbz5809 11:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, does this conform to Wikipedia's peculiar requirements? Sbz5809 15:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Since you release it under the ShareAlike License, I'm sure it's ok. But with that giant credit splashed across it, it's not something we can actually use on the Pasty page. —dcclark (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

There's just no pleasing you, is there? Sbz5809 15:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I guess not. But we really can't use a picture with credits splashed right across the middle. Perhaps if you put it in the corner? I'd still not be thrilled, but it would be better. —dcclark (talk) 16:39, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Any more hoops you'd like me to jump through? Some other reason that a photograph of a genuine Cornish pasty should not appear on the "Cornish pasty" page along with your own of an American pasty? Sbz5809 17:01, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be hostile, just pointing out legitimate problems with the photo. There is also no reason to turn this into a "real" vs. "fake" pasty debate -- there are lots of pasties, we should represent them all. The new version of the file looks fine to me, but you may want to double-check the WP image upload rules to be sure it's ok as it stands. —dcclark (talk) 18:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

If it's not, I'm sure someone will delete it like last time, probably without warning, like last time. I'm not in a "real" vs "fake" debate, but this is a "Cornish pasty" page, linked from "Cornwall". I'm also not trying to be hostile, but you guys seem to go out of your way to make being helpful as difficult as possible. Sbz5809 19:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

As I noted above, it would be redundant to have two separate pages for what are, fundamentally, the same type of food. It does indeed link from Cornwall, but it also links from Upper Peninsula of Michigan and Butte, Montana, for equally good reasons. Finally, there is no "you guys" -- there is no organized group which deletes images, asks for changes, etc. Wikipedia is just a bunch of people doing whatever it is we do in our own separate ways. I'm sorry you've had trouble with your image, but the real place to argue about it is in a Wikipedia forum on copyright policy, not here. Finally, I think that the image as it stands is ready to go on the main page, so I'll go add that right now. —dcclark (talk) 21:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Then we really should move the article to Pasty since that is what the typical resident of both Cornwall and the UP call it, and how both renditions (as well as the Australian and Mexican ones) are variations of the same food item. Generic page titles are generally better than overspecific ones -- Kaszeta 23:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I support a move to Pasty. —dcclark (talk) 04:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The image does seem to go against the Image use policy ("Don't put credits in images themselves"). I really don't see why you feel it's necessary to have credits in the image - the image page contains the same details and the license you've chosen requires attribution (anyone who uses it without giving it is violating copyright law). We do need an image, so I guess it will probably stay until we have an alternative. In any case, it cannot be deleted without warning as it would have to go through the Images and media for deletion process. David Johnson [T|C] 22:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

The additional history added recently by 193.38.88.6 is interesting, but needs some serious cleanup. It's also very hit-or-miss. For example, the mention of pasties in "Merry Wives of Windsor" is rather minor, compared to (for example) Titus Andronicus, in which Titus bakes his son's head into a pasty and makes his wife eat it. Other bits cited are also rather unimportant. It looks like this article is being made into a school essay or something like that (some of the anonymous edits make this pretty clear). We should watch out for excess cruft being added. I will try to do some cleanup once I get on to a faster connection. —dcclark (talk) 18:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I've had a go and cleaning it up a bit too:

I've removed the following: There is still today a great deal of debate as to the true origins of the pasty, however there is little doubt that the pasty originated in Cornwall, England and has a long and famous history.

Firstly there's little point mentioning a debate if the article isn't going to give details of the debate and I'm not sure the long and famous history bit adds anything.

I also removed The pasty is now Cornwall's most successful export. as there's no verification for that claim and I'm not sure it's true (if someone can find some evidence of the claim, please add it back in).

I moved some of the stuff to be under a new heading, Cultural references. I don't think that's a very good name for the section though...

I removed Another theory is that the crust kept away the arsenic which might be found on the miners' hands. as it's just repeating what was said about dirty hands.

Apart from that I just re-arranged things a bit and did some wikification. David Johnson [T|C] 21:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks good to me, nice cleanup. I'm going to add a brief mention of the arsenic, because it seems to be interesting and relevant -- but I agree that two separate mentions of the crust aren't necessary. —dcclark (talk) 23:15, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fillings

While I realise that pasties with a variety of fillings {cheese, chicken, etc.) are available, I submit that no self-respecting Cornishman would regard such pasties as 'Cornish pasties'. Part of the trouble lies in the fact that the Cornish refer to genuine Cornish pasties (made with chuck or skirt steak, potato, swede and onion) as simply 'pasties'; the term 'Cornish pasty' is not used by the Cornish. What a non-Cornish might call a cheese and onion pasty is, in no sense, a Cornish pasty. Sbz5809 19:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

True, but it would be excessive to have two articles, "Cornish Pasty" and just "Pasty". The article covers both traditional and "modern" pasties, and I think it makes clear what the tradidional form is. —dcclark (talk) 23:13, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate to list the different types of pasties (Pembrokeshire, Devonshire, Cornish) and to specify the ingredients in each. For exampe, lamb is in Pembrokeshire; this would not normally be in a Cornish pasty, but a true Cornish pasty would always include vegetables as well as meat. If it did not, would it not be a Devonshire pasty?ACEO 19:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to move to "Pasty"

Copied from above, where this got lost in another thread:

Then we really should move the article to Pasty since that is what the typical resident of both Cornwall and the UP call it, and how both renditions (as well as the Australian and Mexican ones) are variations of the same food item. Generic page titles are generally better than overspecific ones -- (originally Kaszeta)

Please support or oppose below.

Copying my reply from above, I vote to move to Pasty and redirect Cornish Pasty to Pasty. The arguments above have come from use of the adjective "Cornish" -- let's just make sure the article specifies how Cornish Pasties were original, and how the fillings may differ outside Cornwall. —dcclark (talk) 18:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, nobody's said anything in a week. I'm moving the article to Pasty and calling it good. Dcclark 23:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, can't move due to a redirect page with history at Pasty. Adding to Requested Moves -- see the top of this page for more details. Dcclark 23:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a good move, hopefully an admin will deal with it, once five days has elapsed (or sooner!) --Lox (t,c) 15:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see any real need to open this to vote, since it isn't likely to be controversial, but since you have, support.

I didn't feel the need to open the vote either, but Pasty already exists as a redirect, and thus I can't just move the page without an admin's help. This is part of that process, so here we are! -- dcclark (talk) 18:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved. —Nightstallion (?) 11:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Savoury / Sweet Pasty

The idea of the pasty with savoury filling at one end and sweet at the other is surely an invention, albeit a nice idea. There is no satisfactory way of dividing sweet from savoury inside a pasty, and the chances of avoiding a grim mixture of beef and jam/apple are nil. Pasty pastry melts slightly when first cooked, which would render any pastry partition useless within about 20 minutes of being in the oven. Not only that, beef pasties take the very best part of an hour and a quarter to cook, whereas any jam/apple filled pastry confection would be utterly carbonised in that length of time, making it near impossible to contrive such a thing. Apart from boiling the thing in a suet-type pastry (not really commonly done in Cornwall that I know of) or using pre-cooked ingredients (never done in Cornwall, and certainly not in the 1800s - way too time-consuming), it just has to be made up.

Also, using ground beef or mince is as much a guarantee of inferior quality as is carrot, peas etc. Skirt is the only really "traditional" cut to use, though chuck is OK, and shin is a maybe.

Lastly, in photos I have seen (and Lord help me, I've seen a lot) miners tended to hold their pasties in whatever they were wrapped in, usually paper or cloth. They were almost always eaten end to end, with the effect of the juices running through keeping the pasty moist till the end. So I am not convinced by the idea that the crimp was designed to be held, although certainly miners would not have touched the filled part with their fingers - the crimp is solely there to keep the edges of the pastry together. It is common for a crimp to be along the top of a pasty - in this case you can't hold the pasty by the crimp anyway.

I like the article though, I must say - I don't mean to be critical. But you really must spell "Helston" correctly in the credits on the image of the pasty...  :o) Bretonbanquet 01:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've hard the story of double ended pasties, holding them by the crust, and dropping them down mine shafts since I was little (I was born and brought up there), I've never acually *believed* the stories mind you, but it's the local folklore on the subject. Not sure what the historical texts have to say for it's accuracy.

I have had fruit filled pasties though (notably strawberry jam), so it's possible... I guess you could make a fruitfilled pasty, and then wrap that into the larger meatfilled pasty, that'd form a suitable seal between the two. I don't see cooking could be a great problem either since the jam tends to caramelise with additional cooking and just gets tastier.

Could justbe folklore though. Oh, and the crimp only runs along the top in non authentic (or rather non Cornish) pasties, in Cornwall it's always along the side. -Ryuujin -80.242.32.51 17:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the crimp, I'm assuming you have your wires crossed. An authentic Cornish pasty crimp is along the top, like the one in the top photo, as opposed to the Michigan pasty in the other photo. I've lived here my whole life and have never seen a home-made pasty with a side crimp. My grandmother (and her mother before her apparently) always made pasties with a top crimp, and that takes us back to about 1920.

Concerning the double-ended pasties, I'd consider it a lot more likely if there was even one of the many commercial pasty-bakers here who were making them today. It would be a fine gimmick, but no-one is doing it - my guess is that it's just too difficult to get the right result. Bretonbanquet 18:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The article states that Devon pasties have a top crimp, and traditional Cornish ones have a side crimp. Is that wrong? (If so, please change it.) -- dcclark (talk) 19:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how Devon pasties are crimped, I wasn't aware that there was a particular difference between them and Cornish pasties. Some shop pasties here (in Cornwall) have a crimp tending towards the side, but others run along the top. Equally some non-Cornish pasty-type delicacies have top crimps, and others (like Ginsters) have side "crimps". Maybe there isn't a hard-and-fast definition of an authentic Cornish pasty crimp, but I am certain that a top crimp is at least very common indeed. For example, the Helston pasty shown in the photo. Bretonbanquet 00:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

There is in fact a real split-filled pasty, but it's not a Cornish pasty. They are called Bedfordshire Clangers. Here are some refs: [2], [3], and the Wikipedia article here--H-ko (Talk) 02:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I did a fairly major rewrite and reorganization of the article. In particular, I added inline references. If anyone feels like helping, we still need a few things:

• More references, preferably from print sources
• More detailed history
• Verification or disproval of the sweet and savory pasty (see above) -- even just a primary source talking about fruit in pasties would be good.

Drop a line here with any complaints. :) -- dcclark (talk) 18:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• I've found an article published by the New York Times in 1988 which confirms the Devon Pasty stuff and the sweet/savoury reference. I don't have time to add the references now (or even read through the full article), but here's the URL to the online version in case someone else wants to add them before I get around to it: FARE OF THE COUNTRY; In Cornwall, a Meal in a Crust. —David Johnson [T|C] 10:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• Very cool. I'll merge in some useful information later. -- dcclark (talk) 15:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I can see this NYT article has been taken as gospel truth, but I have to say it adds nothing. Firstly - the sweet-savoury "two-course" pasty. This is romantic rubbish - no question about it. No-one I have ever known, including many Cornish born-and-bred women of 80+, has either seen or eaten such a thing. I still haven't seen any evidence that it's possible to make, for reasons I stated in the relevant section above, nor primary evidence that anyone in those distant days had the free time or equipment to make one. Fruit pasties are never cooked for the same length of time as a meat pasty - they just can't be unless you like raw meat or carbonised jam - and no miner's wife would ever have had the time to pre-cook ingredients. No Cornish pasty-seller sells them today, and given the gimmick value - they would if they could! Hettie Merrick's "The Pasty Book" (Penryn 1995) states that "I have personally not found anything like it actually in use in Cornwall."

The crimping thing - in Merrick's book it is stated that there is no authentic manner in which to crimp a Cornish pasty - you just do whatever you find easiest. The hardest way is to crimp along the top, perhaps this is why many people crimp along the side. She also states that there is much debate over the "correct way", suggesting that there just is no correct way. I also contend that there is no such thing as a "Devon pasty" - this would just be a type of Cornish pasty which happens to be made in Devon. There don't seem to be enough differences between the two to merit it being a separate entity. My grandmother's grandfather was a master baker in Truro at the end of the 1800s, and the method of crimping that was passed down to my grandmother was along the top, no question about it.

But anyway, it's not my article, so feel free to put what you like. I'm not going to wreck it by editing it, but that's what I think. Anyway, any media article which suggests that a Ginster's "pasty" is even pleasant to eat, let alone remotely authentic, is clearly extremely dubious in my opinion. In Cornwall itself you can hardly give them away - they're only made for "export" to England. Bretonbanquet 17:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I can see that you feel very strongly about this. The article doesn't belong to anyone. If you wish to edit it to be more accurate, from your view, you should do so. For my part, I will stay with the print and web sources which I've cited, and which also tally with my own experience. If you can cite the book (Merrick) in the article, that would help a lot. -- dcclark (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've tried to edit it in keeping with all points of view - feel free to change it around if you like of course. I am not familiar with the footnote system but I will attempt to cite Merrick as well. If anyone can come up with a recipe for a two course pasty that doesn't involve pre-cooked ingredients, I'd be very interested to try it. Bretonbanquet 01:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Excellent edits! The footnote came through fine. -- dcclark (talk) 06:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Now I've learned footnotes as well  :o) Bretonbanquet 18:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I guess the New York Times footnote got slightly borked, but no problem. If you refer to a footnote before it's defined, you get some weird blank reference in the "References" section. I'm too used to the niceities of LaTeX which doesn't care about that. :) -- dcclark (talk) 20:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

The picture with a caption on top of it is rather ugly that way imho. I'm sure there must be a Wikipedian with a camera who can photograph a Cornish pastie and upload it? --kingboyk 17:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You might want to check out the discussion about the photo above. -- dcclark (talk) 19:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Oggy"

There has been a bit of editing going on with regard to the term "oggy" being used / not being used / said to be used for a Cornish pasty. I haven't edited that myself, but I'm fairly sure that term is never used IN Cornwall. Maybe if we can establish where it is used (if anywhere), we could adjust the sentence accordingly. Bretonbanquet 19:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The article at Oggy Oggy Oggy clearly says that Oggy is a Cornish slang term for pasty. It also says that Oggy Oggy Oggy is a cheer used in Britain. If that's wrong, it should first be corrected at the primary article. I edited the Pasty article to more accurately reflect the use (in Britain) vs. the origin (in Cornwall). -- dcclark (talk) 19:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Having now read that article it does clearly say that, but with no verification or reference - obviously that doesn't mean it's not true. But I wouldn't like to say for certain that the "Oggy Oggy Oggy" phrase / chant originates in Cornwall - it might be Welsh, for example. The cheer is certainly used in Britain and in Cornwall, especially at rugby matches - no doubt about that - but whether it originated here or was "imported" from elsewhere would be hard to verify. I've never seen any real evidence either way to be honest - it's another instance of something with really murky origins. There is a pasty-shop chain in parts of Cornwall called "Oggy Oggy", but it's modern, and you really don't hear local people here readily refer to pasties as oggies. We need a bit of help to clear it up really, as there are so many half-truths and inventions concerning Cornish traditions that one has to be very careful to sort the wheat from the chaff.

The edit you've just done is pretty much spot-on as far as we can prove and as far as is commonly believed, I think  :o) Bretonbanquet 23:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Bryson

He mentions pasties in one of his books - perhaps Notes from a big country? He talks about how they have entered into certain areas of Michigan but not others... could be worth looking for that and noting any thing that might be of interest for the article. --Robdurbar 12:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pasty tongue

I have just read a reference to "pasty tongue" as an indicator among other signs of ingesting narcotics like "white desidue around lips", "constant burping" and "bloodshot eyes".

I would like to get a better or more explicit explanation in order to get a better idea of the real meaning of the expression....I only understand the reference considering just the shape of the pasties.

Almost certainly meaning a paste-like feeling of the tongue (Paste-y Tongue). Not related to this pastry. -- dcclark (talk) 20:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pasties (nipple covering)

I added a disambig link to the page on pasties, the nipple coverings, because I accidentally ended up here when looking for them, as many people might. It was removed as vandalism, which it was not. I have readded it; if you think it is inappropriate, please discuss here. Remember, Wikipedia is not censored. Mgcsinc 21:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

What's with the Wikipedia is not censored line? Rsm99833 22:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Rsm99833, it looks like you reverted Mgcsinc's addition of "for the nipple covering, see pasties" here. Not sure if it was accidental or not. That's the reference, anyhow. -- dcclark (talk) 22:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like it was accidental on my part. Probably because of the "Two other uses" wording. My bad.Rsm99833 22:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swede and turnip

"Other common ingredients include swede (rutabaga) (called turnip in Cornwall) and possibly parsley" -

Swede and turnip are different.

The Rutabaga article claims that they are different names for the same thing. You may want to take it up over there. -- dcclark (talk) 02:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Also see Turnip (disambiguation) Tubezone 02:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This is just a (confusing) dialect difference. In Cornwall the red skinned root veg with the yellow flesh has always been called turnip (I believe this is also the case in Scotland, and probably elsewhere too). In other parts of the UK this is called swede, and turnip refers to the smaller white fleshed root vegetable (In Cornwall this is called white turnip!). In North America Swede is called Rutabaga but I don't know the provenance - rutabaga is simmilar to the French word for Swede so maybe thats where it came from Mammal4 12:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Rutabaga comes from the Swedish word rotabagge. Makes sense as this vegetable was first popularized in the US (although I should say introduced, it's not terribly popular) by Swedish immigrants. Tubezone 19:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)