Talk:Passchendaele

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An event mentioned in this article is a July 31 selected anniversary

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[edit] Quantity of mines

The 1 million tons of explosive quote for the mines in Messines ridge is ludicrous, the only other quotation I found was 600 tons and it is much more believable, changing it... JidGom 02:18, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The quote possibly comes from In Flanders Fields by Leon Wolff which says "By June 7 the total had come to a million pounds of explosives and almost five miles of gallery." I've read a few books on 3rd Ypres and Wolff's seems fast and loose with the details at times. The figures I used in the trench warfare article reckon 399 tons (19 mines at an average of 21 tons). As far as I know 22 mines were laid (so three mines weren't blown) and 24 mines had been dug (so I presume two were either counter-mined or abandoned). I'll see if I can recall my sources. Geoff/Gsl 02:41, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, I misread. To correct myself (and apologise to Mr Wolff), a million pounds is about right. If my figures are right, 19 mines at 21 tons at 2200 pounds per ton is 880,000 pounds. Throw in the unblown mines and it would be close to a million pounds. A million tons is clearly wrong. Hiroshima was 12 kilotons. I don't think the British were up to delivering a megaton blast in 1917. Geoff/Gsl 06:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A million pound makes for between 550 and 600 tonnes so what is now in the article should be correct... The page I added in the see also as a mine by mine explosive weight table... JidGom 21:45, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Correction, one million pounds makes about 450 tonnes and not 600, and I first put sixty in the text (was tired)... Should be fixed now... JidGom 22:40, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Somebody might want to check the Salient link.

This one? http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/messines.htm

Name of Mine Charge (lbs) Crater Diameter

  • Hill 60 A 53 500 191 feet
  • Hill 60 B 70 000 260 feet
  • St Eloi 95 600 176 feet
  • Hollandscheschour 1 34 200 183 feet
  • Hollandscheschour 2 14 900 105 feet
  • Hollandscheschour 3 17 500 141 feet
  • Petit Bois 1 30 000 175 feet
  • Petit Bois 2 30 000 217 feet
  • Maedelstede Farm 94 000 217 feet
  • Peckham 87 000 240 feet
  • Spanbroekmolen 91 000 250 feet
  • Kruisstraat 1 30 000 235 feet
  • Kruisstraat 4 19 500 (1 &4 linked explosions)
  • Kruisstraat 2 30 000 217 feet
  • Kruisstraat 3 30 000 202 feet
  • Ontario Farm 60 000 200 feet
  • Trench 127 Left 36 000 182 feet
  • Trench 127 Right 50 000 210 feet
  • Trench 122 Left 20 000 195 feet
  • Trench 122 Right 40 000 228 feet

[edit] Suggestions

I don't know a great deal about this battle, so I thought I'd point out a few ways in which this article could be improved (i.e. I still feel confused after reading it). The intro mentions Passchendaele being taken by Canadian troops, so it was a place? That's the only mention of where the name comes from, although later "the town" is mentioned... is this Passchendaele?

There was a village named Passchendaele in the area that gave its name to the battle, i checked the Belgian yellow pages and no place of this name seems to exists anymore, we would need a Belgian to check if it has been incorporated in some other place or simply not rebuilt after its complete destruction in the battle... JidGom 22:50, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWpasschendaele.htm has a map with the location of Passchendaele marked. You might be able to match that to a modern map. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dccfarr/accom.htm has some information on the present day site of the battle there. - Bevo 23:34, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The info in the last paragraph about the tremendous losses should be mentioned in the introduction since Passchendaele is so commonly referred to as one of the bloodiest battles in WW1.

I need to see a map... I'm not really sure where all of this is taking place. A specific map designed to show the front(s) and the battles would be terrific. Well, just a few ideas. fabiform | talk 15:25, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and how is it pronounced? fabiform | talk 15:26, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Roughly "Passion-dale" Arwel 18:39, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I did a Google search on images, and came up with this link ( http://www.historyonmaps.com/BWSamples.htm - number I41). The guy who made it has a website full of maps (he's an historic cartographer). I don't know made he would say about usage of the map and copyright, but it sure it a nice map... TimothyPilgrim 18:09, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
Those are nice maps, though looking at his site I would guess that this work is his major source of income. I wonder if it would be possible for Wikipedia to commission some maps from him? -- after all we do have some money in the bank now (the tech mailing list is talking of spending another $10,000 on another server...). Arwel 18:39, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In the second paragraph under the topic Messines Ridge, it mentions that "one exploded during a thunderstorm on 17 July 1955, only killing two million cows." Two million cows? Anyone care to correct this? Skunkoceros 11:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photograph

Perhaps I'm being daft and I've only skimmed the article, but the relevance of the photograph to the article is not immediately clear to me apart from the fact that that they both concern Ypres. Could someone provide a more illuminating caption? Lupin 17:26, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the caption can be improved. - Bevo 17:37, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Weblinks

"Passchendaele" is called Passendale, nowadays part of the city of Zonnebeke. Look at the website (in Dutch):

http://www.zonnebeke.be/

You can find it there under the heading 'toerisme' -> "onze troeven" -> 1914-1918

Even now, the remains of soldiers are still being found and getting a decent burial

http://www.diggers.be/N/Ezine/2003/canada09062003.htm

Also of interest :

http://www.wfb.net/MAIN/Virtual/Pages_N/HighRes/VR_BE_01.htm

http://www.trabel.com/ieper/ieper-greatwar.htm

http://www.greatwar.be/ned/evenementen/erbij/body001.htm

JoJan 17:59, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)JoJan

[edit] Unexploded Mines

The article as of today says that there were only 2 unexploded mines after the war until the thunderstorm in 1955 which left one. I just watched a show on Discovery Channel (Canada) called Ultimate Explosions and they stated, with a map, that there were 4 unexploded mines after the battle. Now after the 1955 storm, there are 3 left. Does anybody have any references to check this discrepancy in numbers? TimothyPilgrim 00:39, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

I just finished watching the show and at the end they said that the "history books would need to be rewritten" because what was once believed to be 2 unexploded mines has indeed been found to be 4 or more. It showed a map of the southeast extreme of the trenchline where there was a diamond of four mines called The Birdcage. The southernmost of this diamond was the one that exploded in 1955. But there was then a 5th mine described that has been found underneath a farmhouse further to the northwest of the diamond a distance. Experts who are currently looking for mines in Vimy Ridge said that the Messines mine tunnels were flooded and prevented access to the known mines. They also said that the water would protect the Amanol explosives, but the detonators may have degraded, making them even more sensitive. Fascinating stuff. Can anybody confirm this info? TimothyPilgrim 01:12, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Misspelling

Isn't it supposed to be spelled PASCHENDALE?

No. Google shows about 44,000 hits for Passchendaele, 24,000 for Paschendale (of which the first few pages seem to refer exclusively to the Iron Maiden connection, or a place in Victoria, Australia), and 600 for Paschendaele. -- Arwel 19:36, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Omitting the first "s" is a very common mistake, even for those who speak Dutch themselves :o)--MWAK 06:27, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Misspelling

I believe that 'Amanol' is a misspelling of 'amatol', a mixture of ammonium nitrate and trinotrotoluene (TNT) that was developed as a budget explosive during WW1. My source for 'amatol' is Collins Dictionary 1995; it does not reference 'amanol'. I don't think that 'amatol' is a brand name, so it needn't be capitalised.--BrianMorris 14:29, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Explosion of mines heard in Dublin ?

The sentence "The detonation of the mines was the loudest man-made noise ever made to that date, audible as far away as Dublin" to me seems to be very speculative. Is there anything but anecdotal evidence to support this? --Albrecht Conz 01:41, 31 July 2005 (UTC) Agreed - sounds a touch whimsical - it's been said, but is it factual? --MAdaXe 11:21, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that it could easily be fixed by changing the wording to something along the lines of "It has been said that the detonation of the mines ...". I'll make the change, unless somebody else has found some sort of evidence that it could be true. --Lenar 13:56, 15 October 2005

[edit] Confused about the mines

The second paragraph under Messines Ridge says that both sides planted mines, but then seems to infer that all of the 21 mines mentioned were Allied mines. What happened to the German mines? Or were only 19 of them Allied, in which case it should say, "the nineteen Allied mines", not "19 of the Allied mines"? Osomec 23:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More info needed

This page needs more data on the German casualties. It is written from a very Allied perspective. Squiddy 11:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] British Empire and Britain

Why isn't there an article on Passendale itself? I would have expected this to be under Battle of Passendale, with a separate entry for the village. Was the village completely wiped out by the battle? Is there no official information on the village up until the battle? There are plenty of trivial article abouts American villages and schools that list the population, location and not much else; I don't believe that Passendale was so unremarkable as to merit a separate article. Airport 1975 12:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You're not forgetting this is the English Wikipedia, are you? Quite probably there hasn't been anyone with a sufficient interest in and/or knowledge of the village to provide an article. I don't think Passendale's "worthiness" has anything to do with it. Then again, do you have any reason to believe it does merit a separate article?Michael Dorosh 13:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think this should be at "Battle of Passchendaele" but as for an article about the town, that comes down to someone havign the time and knowledge to write it.say1988 17:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See also

Why is Hedd Wyn mentioned in the "See also" section? He isn't mentioned anywhere else in the article and his own entry doesn't mention Passchendale at all.

[edit] Unexploded mines (continued)

According to Battle of Messines, there were four mines left. This article says that there were two. There is some discussion about this above in another section, but the info should be uniform atleast within wikipedia. Tintin (talk) 03:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I am adding a fact tag to the mention of mines here and in the Battle of Messines. If there is a confusion, we should explain it. In the current form, one of the articles has to be incorrect. Tintin (talk) 08:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I changed the Battle of Messines entry based on the external source First World War.com, the two articles should be consistent with each other now. (unregistered guy)

Thank you. Tintin (talk) 08:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Empire includes Britain

The phrase "British and Empire soldiers" is incorrect, as Britain is part of the British Empire (which Empire refers to) and therefore reads "British and Australians, British, Canadians etc..." It could be corrected two ways: a) "British Empire soldiers" which includes everybody from the British Empire (including the Great Britain along with the Dominions and Colonies) with the British only referred to once. b) "British and Colonial and/or Dominion soldiers" Depending on whoo all is being referred to and the exact context. I will correct it the simple way by removing "and".say1988 22:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

c) "British and other Empire soldiers" --Usgnus 22:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

ok, I was a little annoyed at the time, yes there are more viable corrections, but my main point is it was wrong before, and I still think British Empire would be best as it is simple, correct and doesn't place Britons as being special and more important, which saying "British and the rest" (no matter how you prase "the rest") does. Though grammatically it would probably need to be "those soldiers of the British Empire who..." say1988 14:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it has anything to do with Britons being "special", but in the war Britons were by far the most numerous fighting for the British Empire, and if anything it makes the "others" whoever they may me look more "special", by distinguishing them from Britons, as one would naturally assume that that is what is meant when they see "British Empire soldiers". Now as far as this particular battle goes I don't know the exact breakdown of nationalities.Anomaly 54 18:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. "British and Empire" was the normal phraseology at the time. Yes, Britain was part of the Empire, but was usually distinguished from it. -- Arwel (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Culture?

The last few sections of the page listing movies, music, books, etc. relating to Passchendaele seem like they could be organized better. Anyway, I took the liberty of adding a brief entry for Robertson Davies' Fifth Business into the "further reading" section. Though it doesn't focus exclusively on Passchendaele, I feel that it deserves mention.--Warrior-Poet 22:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't you think that quoting the entire Iron Maiden song lyrics is a bit over-indulgent?

[edit] No maps???

NUMBERS

It's funny that there is a number of known casualties but the strength of either side isn't known, not even an approximation, hmmm. Anomaly 54 18:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Given the large number of formations that rotated in and out and the length of the battle, I don't find this particularly vexing or unusual. It may simply be a matter, however, that no one has looked up the figure in a knowledgeable source. If you're volunteering to do so, I am sure your work would be greatly appreciated by other editors. Don't forget to cite your source with a footnote.Michael Dorosh 15:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A million shell holes in a square mile

Am I the only one who found this completely unbelievable? Presumably they'd have to be counted individually, by the naked eye. It seems unlikely that anyone would bother. Plus it means that they'd be a shell hole approximately every 1.6 metres in all directions, at which point they would quickly become indistinguishable from one another. Nor does it have any reference.

That's "half a million shell holes in half a square mile". It's an estimate from aerial photographs taken after the battle. This Australian site gives details - that site says that in the last two weeks of July alone the British fired 4,283,550 artillery shells at a cost of over £22 million 1917 pounds. Given the ferocity of the battle I don't find it at all unbelievable. -- Arwel (talk) 15:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Popular Culture Continued...

The inclusion of Iron Maiden's lyrics is beyond the beyond of over indulgence. It is firstly needless, a brief mention would have been enough; it secondly, over powers a very important article with its 'earnestness'. The contributor, if they so felt the need to subject us to this should have placed a redirect. This is an important historical article and should not be sullied by the likes of this. For this reason it has been removed.--The Three Jays 02:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

NAME OF ARTICLE

The battle for Passchendaele and the Third Battle of Ypres weren't one and the same. Third Ypres culminated in the Battle for Passchendaele. I think the name of this article should be made to reflect that. And won't "Battle of Passchendaele be more approriate than simply "Passhendaele" after all the article on the battle of the Somme isn't called "Somme". Anomaly 54 16:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture - Black Adder

The section claims that Blackadder dies in the battle of Passchendale, but Blackadder and Baldrick can be seen discussing the russian withdrawal from the war in the series, an event that occured later than the battle... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.109.95.85 (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

The three stars can also be seen hiding from an in-progress Push by impersonating Italian chefs in the first episode. The series begins with the battle and takes place during same. The advance seen in the final episode that kills the main characters was merely the advance of that company, taking place after the start of the battle and after the Russian withdrawal. VolatileChemical 23:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

There's another article The Battle of Passchendaele, which should probably be merged into this article. Any thoughts? Carom 20:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Agree. -- Hongooi 07:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree. Rjm at sleepers 13:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Most definitely, this article specifically says that this spelling pretty much refers to the battle and Battle of Passchendaele (no the) already redirects here. Except for some AWB and bot maintenance, it is a single editor (I am notifying them). I will try to get to it tonite. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 14:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Done. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 11
23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intensifiers

This is a great battle, but intensifiers such as "very" add drama without adding data or helpful commentary. We already make it clear that this was a great hitoric and horrible battle only small one step above hand-to-hand combat of great masses of me. Let's leave it at that can use standard adjectives to descibe weather, morale, causualties, etc. Last I checked, we are not writing for Sport Illustrated, so flowery language is not helpful. We should "talk up" to our readers, assume that they are mature and that they will "do the math" and look at the causualty numbers and recognize the magnitude of this battle. Every death on the battlefield is a bad one and with numbers like these, there will obviously be deaths with prolonged horror and suffering, but we do not need to remind the reader with such dramatic characterizations: let the reader figure that part out for themselves. That is part of the "neutral" in NPOV that we often forget about: the writer of history should provide data (as if they were, say, an accountant) and let the reader decide if they are impressed by the numbers. Otherwise, we are taking on the role of Shakespeare and providing entertainment rather than NPOV. -- 70.231.142.200 17:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

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