Talk:Partition of India

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Archive 1

Contents

[edit] Discussion of a book

Please do not remove reference to this historical and notable book from this page on "Partition of India", it is a important reminder of the communal bloodbath, misery and hardships that became a part and parcel of the "Partition of India".

Atulsnischal 19:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Please stop adding that book. It is possibly a useful primary source for a historian, but it is not from a reliable or reputable press. The books already in the list give full details of the horrors of Partition, and most of them are fearless in naming the perpetrators. (I haven't read the Pakistani book and suspect that it may be biased, but it's put out by a university press, from an accredited university, so I think it has to stay in the list, if only to give all viewpoints.) Zora 23:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
UCLA seems to disagree, Univ. Virginia. Rediff sems to assert notability as well [1], JSTOR, NYU. I'm reinserting link.Bakaman 00:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Add Haifa's South Asian studies dept as well.Bakaman 02:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Books are often on reading lists that are not reliable sources for an encyclopaedia, but primary sources for a historian, who conduct the the OR that is not permitted on WP. Your point is not an answer to Zora. Hornplease 05:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Cited by rediff and JSTOR ? WP:OR talks about editor themselves making research, not the usage of books which cite primary sources. Wikilawyering isnt going to help you censor this article. Your argument is flawed, and as a note you're not going to get any sort of cooperation from me by harrassing and pestering me for no reason. After your actions on arbcom, I will deal with you just as I deal with trolls and have decided I have no need to listen to your commentary and bad faith accusations.Bakaman 16:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mam Zora

Please let the book remain there, it is an important and reliable document on that most important chapter in our history. Its good to let people know so that this kind of thing is never repeated again. Sincerely Atulsnischal 13:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dear User Zora

I have noticed you are unfairly and unjustly removing content from this page on Partition of India. Please do not VADALIZE this article, we may have to report you to Wikipedia Administrators Please do not remove content others have added, if you yourself have no useful contribution to make on this topic, kindly use your time writing articles you are truly interested in and there is none on Wikipedia

Looking forward to some great contributions from you, also some new interesting articles on Wikipedia from you sir

Sincerely

Atulsnischal 22:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a sir, just a ma'am. You're free to report me, if you wish, but I think the other editors would agree that the references you keep trying to add are sub-standard. Not academic quality. Voice of India is a small press with a specific viewpoint, to wit:
VOICE OF INDIA aims at providing an ideological defence of Hindu society and culture, through a series of publications. Some of these publications have already been brought out and received wide appreciation. In this fight for men's minds, our only weapon is Truth. Truth must be told, as much about Hindu society and culture as about the alien ideologies which have been on the warpath since the days of foreign domination over the Hindu homeland.

Perhaps the press's website should be linked to the Hindutva article, if it already isn't. I can't promise you that it will be joyfully received there, however, since I'm not one of the regular editors. Zora 00:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Atul, google books is good enough.Bakaman 00:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Since you wanted administrative attention, here I am. However, so far there is nothing here that appears to be an administrative matter, just a content dispute. Addressing it on that level, at the very least, significantly partisan works should be identified as such, and if we are adding them in this obviously controversial matter, we should be adding comparably partisan works from the other side. The linked college curricula appear to include partisan works from both sides, so there is no difficulty in finding appropriate materials. My own inclination would be to add neither (but possibly to link the UCLA reading list, so that the issue of retaining balance is not subject to edit wars); adding one side without adding the other is absolutely inappropriate. - Jmabel | Talk 01:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, that sounds like a good solution (like adding the DMOZ directories to several disputed Islam-related articles). Adding not just one partisan view, but a whole range of partisan materials, would increase the article's usefulness. But I must admit that I'm not sure what you mean by the UCLA reading list. Can you explain? Zora 02:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
He means the list I cited in the earlier discusion "UCLA List".Bakaman 02:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Precisely. - Jmabel | Talk 04:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Added -- I made a special section for bibliographies, which might spur students and researchers to look further. Which is what is desired, after all. Zora 05:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Mam Zora

Please let the book remain there, it is an important and reliable document on that most important chapter in our history. Its good to let people know so that this kind of thing is never repeated again. Sincerely Atulsnischal 13:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

We added the UCLA site that Bakasuprman found, which links to the book. The book is not a reliable secondary source and it doesn't belong in the section where you keep trying to place it. But, as pointed out above, it could be useful to researchers in the context of all the other partisan literature. So it's here, but at one remove. Zora 19:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don't remove the Pakistani book!

I haven't read it, but it's put out by a university press and should be considered a reliable secondary source. Removing it as a tit-for-tat, because I removed a partisan primary source, is treating Wikipedia as a battleground rather than an encyclopedia. Zora 19:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If you define NPOV as tit-for tat then it was tit for tat. I added a peer-reviewed academic journal rather than the suspect Pakistani source. Bakaman 23:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The peer-reviewed article is unavailable to anyone without JSTOR access, therefore the link you added is useless. As for removing the book published by a Pakistani university press -- are you saying that it is "suspect" because it was published in Pakistan? University presses are usually a good guarantee of quality content, so you're going to have to explain why this press is different. Zora 23:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Going to a university library would allow you to use JSTOR. As you said above, the links are useful for researchers and students, most of whom can easily bum a copy of the Jstro article somewhere. What's harder to find is some random Pakistani book that isnt even focused on the partition.Bakaman 23:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as a more than typically scholarly reader, who even maintains a subscription to a university library, I can tell you that a JSTOR link, which requires me to go to a university library and do my reading there, is a lot less convenient than a book that I can borrow and read at my leisure. - Jmabel | Talk 09:22, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Do see google book search. Its impossible to find the Pakistani book.Bakaman 16:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. I tried the OCLC and didn't find it either. It may be that the book had an extremely limited circulation outside Pakistan. Let's wait a bit and see if the editor who suggested it as a reference can suggest a substitute. The struggle for Pakistan, by the same author, is more narrowly focused on the Partition and is available in 292 U.S. libraries, if that would be acceptable to him/her. Zora 18:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Just two notes: First to User:Bakasuprman, I used the same parameters you suggested above at Google Book Search to look for other references in the Further reading section. First for Collins and Lapierre 1975, with Collins and then Lapierre with no success. Tried Azad 1988, Butalia 1998, Ikram, Gossman 1999, etc. and unfortunately they are all absent. I do not understand what you were trying to imply, but seems like you used the wrong search criteria. So, use proper search parameters or else you'll end up claiming to omit all references from the article!
Secondly, Zora, I'm not sure what keywords you used but reference is at OCLC and can also be traced through 'Library Catalogue Search' at Google Books, using the book title. --IsleScapeTalk 01:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Islescape. I was searching for A Short History of Pakistan and didn't find anything. However -- since that book is only in 30 US libraries and The Struggle for Pakistan is in 300, and more narrowly focussed, a substitution might work? I'm not going to push for this, however, since I've read neither book. I just think a Pakistani POV should be represented. Zora 04:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I really appreciate your determination for NPOV. It seems that the poor book has received more than necessary attention merely for being the only one published in Pakistan out of the listed eight, of which 4, certainly presenting some POV, are published in India (Yes, Collins and Lapierre 1975 were reprinted Lapierre and Collins 1997 ISBN: 8125904808). The lack of availability is due to the fact that only large international publication houses can reach wider array of libraries. As in this case, e.g. Ikram 1995 is only in 4 US libraries, whereas same publisher's Sherwani 1989 doesn't give a single hit!. In this situation, addition and omission seems more likely than substitution. I can look for some more focused references if you wish. --IsleScapeTalk 18:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

If Sherwani is completely unavailable, perhaps we should remove it. As you say, there are certainly enough books representing the Indian POV. If you wish to leave the HOP and add another Pakistani book, that seems fair enough. Is there any book that takes a "pox on both their houses" stance? I suppose that's my POV -- I see tragic human greed for power, stupidity, and hatred on all sides. Zora 20:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

At least the Muslims could stay where they lived. Its not like Abdul Kalam, Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi, Sania Mirza, and Irfan Pathan are suffering.Bakaman 20:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Your claim that India has always treated its Muslims well is debatable, as well as completely beside the point. We're trying to agree on a representative variety of academic histories of the Partition. Zora 22:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Beside the point? The point is that extremists like Madani are going to cry foul about claiming persecution everywhere they go. The cold hard fact is that Hindus are under constant persecution in Pakistan, and that Muslims in India are actually more equal than other groups. Note that in Pakistan, everyone is equal under the law, the same laws apply to everyone, whether a person is Hindu, Muslim, Christian, or Parsee. In India there's different laws for different religions. Whos treated better? Bringing this on subject, logically Pakistani's have nothing to complain about. Couple this with the fact that Pakistani textbooks are automatically suspect (notorious for lies about "kaffirs"), and we can find that apart from encyclopedias, there is no Pakistani POV. Pakistan's legitimacy as a country depends on the two-nation theory, their accounts are obviously going to glorify partition.Bakaman 22:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
With the unintentional help of Islescape, I dig some digging on this book. The peer reviews of this text are not kind to it, as plainly seen by the article A Short History of Pakistan. Academic peer reviewers have heavily criticized the second, third and fourth volumes for chauvinistic, Pakistani nationalist and anti-Hindu biases. I suggest you read the peer reviews of the book as cited in the wikipedia article. I'm sure other less partisan sources can be found for the Pakistani POV here. Rumpelstiltskin223 13:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why Rumpelstiltskin223 had to "dig" for the book while s/he could have found wider criticism, discussion, stats and comments right here. I am also surprised what prompted her/him to remove ref after linking it to the article! [2] As for ref to Pacific Affairs critiques, Hornplease had already touched upon them. Moreover, critiques are not as severe. The best way always is to go to the original comments [3] instead of the criticism of the criticisms. --IsleScapeTalk 21:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] of note to this article

  • [4] - Lying wont get you a book not even focused on the Partition to get on the list. Spouting the same "Bakaman is anti-Pakistani" canard wont help you out either.Bakaman 17:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Pakistani book continued...

Since I added the ISBN on one occasion to the reference, I should attempt to clarify the confusions as I do not really understand what exactly is the objection to the book?

  1. If it’s to the title or contents of the book, then ‘A Short History of Pakistan’ is anything but short [5]. It was published in 4 volumes written by various scholars that cover the history of the region from prehistoric age to the post-independence period, pinpointing the historical aspects of partition. The only disqualification may be that it does not mention ‘Partition of India’ in the title!
  2. If it’s to the authorship, then the general editor I H Qureshi taught at Delhi University for 20 years and was Dean of the Faculty of Arts before migrating to Pakistan. So no better person would qualify for such a mammoth task.
  3. And if someone has any objection to the publisher. Karachi university is an established institution with more departments (56) than the age of many Wikipedians (in years)

The first edition of the book (in four volumes) was published in 1967. The referenced citation (Qureshi 1992) is a 934 pages Paperback. --IsleScape 23:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The point is that it is the broad "History of Pakistan", rather than a book strictly on the Partition and effects. With that book one can also cite volumes of Indian and Bangladeshi history books that mention (and devote space to) partition as well.Bakaman 00:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, if we have a sub-section for bibliographies now, how about a subsection for general histories of the region that treat the Partition in detail? I wouldn't mind having more references added, as long as they were of academic quality. Zora 03:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
IH Qureshi is one of the most respected scholars of the modern history of the Indian subcontinent. Any book by him would be an worthwhile addition to most reading lists. 'A short history of Pakistan' is a several-volume collection of period studies of which he is the editor. The specific portion on 1910-1947 is, like all the other sections, complete of itself; it is, however, written not by Qureshi but by W. Zaman, of Warwick.
Of course, I think that it being a Pakistan-published book or that it is part of a collection that does not focus specifically on partition is far from being a useful argument. However, since the specific section is not by Qureshi himself, and since A Short History... was released by the government in the late 1960s with what might be viewed as an agenda (as the review in Pacific Affairs [6] suggests [7], I am less bothered by this problematic exclusion than I could be. Hornplease 07:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Hornplease, your cites have the same problem as Bakasuprman's -- they're to JSTOR, and most people can't access JSTOR. Don't tell me to "use a university library" -- that's just about impossible for me due to issues of cost (I'd have to buy a day pass) and access (no parking anywhere close, and I'm too crippled to walk for blocks). However, you seem to know the book and the fact that you don't consider it a reliable secondary source, from an academic standpoint, weighs heavily with me. Perhaps you and Islescape could discuss the matter, since you're the two editors here who are familiar with the book. Zora 08:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Zora: I was just including the links for posterity, as it were, I knew you wouldnt be able to access them. However, they basically say what I said above. I think its a reliable secondary source; I just think that it's provenance is such that its not a great secondary source. The reviews in Pacific Affairs, while in no way suggesting that the book lacked academic worth, did succeed in suggesting that there was a specific motive behind the project, viz., the delineation of the newly formed study of the history of Pakistan, rather than of the subcontinent. While this should not greatly imperil the integrity of a project edited by Qureshi and published by a univ press, I am less perturbed about leaving this out of a bibliography than I would the leaving out of something, say, actually written by Qureshi himself. I would object to it not being considered worthy of citing from, though. It's a fine distinction. Hornplease 09:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I would regard the backwards projection of a newly created nation onto history as yet another instance of nationalism mucking up history (see the Historiography and nationalism article). It's less obvious when Iran or France or China is projected backwards, but it's the same issue. Since that's something that so many history books get wrong (IMHO), I wouldn't regard it as a particular black mark against this one. Let's include it, and perhaps the Cambridge history of India? Zora 10:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

True enough. Perhaps you're right; I'd think adding Percival Spear or Bipin Chandra's Struggle for Independence would satisfy any desire to 'balance' views and place Partition in context. Hornplease 10:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

If you vouch for those references, I'd be happy if you could add them. If we had a references page with fifty or so refs, I'd be dubious about adding more, but at present there are very few refs considering that this is such a large and controversial subject. More refs is better. Perhaps setting up various subsections, for general histories, historical works specifically relating to Partition, popular summaries, and academic articles? Put full refs for academic article and then JSTOR link; with the full refs, sometimes it's possible to get at the article through other channels, such as Questia (I have a Questia account) or self-archiving by authors.

BTW, I very much appreciate Witzel's practice of putting up PDFs of his articles on his website. (You know, of course, that a number of studies have shown that making an article easily available dramatically increases its impact, in terms of subsequent citations.) Zora 12:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not just only keep books/academic journals strictly dealing with Partition? It makes the most sense, and now we know that the HoP encyclopedia itself stands accused of bias, we might as well only keep secondary reliable sources that focus on the one incident.Bakaman 15:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course the HoP has a bias. So do all the books cited, in various ways. There is NOTHING that doesn't have a bias, major or minor. In picking references, we choose the ones that are the best arguments for a particular POV -- best as in acceptable prose, well-referenced, accepted by the scholarly community as a POV that an educated person might hold. I think Hornplease has suggested some books that would represent POVs very much opposed to the HoP POV. That's fine ... anyone reading about this tragic event should be exposed to all POVs. WP strives not for the "truth", but for an accurate representation of the state of informed argument. From that standpoint, including a Pakistani POV is necessary. Zora 00:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Critiques at Pacific Review pp. 641-647 are given by four different people on each volume and are variable. They generally appreciate the book but few are critical of some views by individual authors and not the overall book itself. That the book was intended as textbook at the time for undergrads doesn’t make it a government publication.

Of the four volumes, each addresses a separate phase in history. The fourth one, “Alien Rule and the Rise of Muslim Nationalism” is written by four authors. Dr M. A. Rahim (covering the period from 1497 to 1857), M. D. Chughtai (1858-1910), Dr W. Zaman (1910-1947), Dr A. Hamid (1947-1964). Obviously, it deals with pre-, partition, and post partition eras both on East and West Pakistan. However, since the volume is integrated into the 1992 collection ISBN, it won’t be justified to cite it standalone.--IsleScape 18:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this? You cite the pages from the encyclopedia (HoP), and we'll add it under Banglapedia.Bakaman 16:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Not bad for someone who can't distinguish between a history book and an encyclopaedia! --IsleScape 20:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please check references section

I reworked the "causes" section slightly. I realized that there were numerous unsupported claims, claims presented as fact that are controversial, and some material that just seemed strange. Blaming the English and the census for all of it is bizarre, given that the Mughals had categorized their citizens on a religious basis. The whole section needs a better treatment of various historical arguments re causes -- that's not my field, but I'm sure that such debates exist.

I also redid the references section, replacing the Qureishi, because we NEED a Pakistani POV. I would much appreciate it if those better acquainted with the literature in the field could make sure that all the standard sources are there. I'm working under a real handicap here. My specialities are Tongan and Hawaiian history. Zora 12:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

We dont need any Pakistani POV. We need scholarly works from Pakistan and thats it (a more focused work than an encyclopedia - phps an encyclopedia article like Banglapedia). No sensational nonsense about "Muslims having nowhere to go" (as one can obviously see in India, Muslims are treated fairly well compared to the rampant persecution of Hindus in Pakistan) and "escape from Hindu oppression". Might as well re-add Gurubachan Talib if we're going around adding POV.Bakaman 16:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Causes of Partition

Various anon editors attempt to use this section to argue for their view of the Partition (often, that Jinnah was an evil man with deep-laid plans to claim huge chunks of Hindu-majority India). Sometimes this propagandizing is rather subtle, with a "few" historians said to claim that Jinnah was only blustering to win concessions, and didn't intend to split the country, and "many" or "most" historians said to claim that Jinnah always intended a split. But how can we tell if "few" or "many" is accurate if we don't have a list and a count? I changed both claims to "some" and asked for citations.

If professional historians are divided on the subject, we should give the views of all sides without editorializing. Let readers know that there is controversy, and give them the resources, in the links and references sections, to explore further and make up their own minds. WP isn't in the business of settling controversies, only of reporting them. Zora 02:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Well there are non-Indian sources that affirm to the fact that Jinnah did want whole of Punjab and Bengal. In "Freedom of Midnight" Mountbatten recounts a conversation he had with Jinnah, in which Jinnah envisions Pakistan which includes whole of Punjab and Bengal. Whats more didnt Jinnah encourage Hyderabad State state to declare independence inspite of its overwhelming Hindu majority>?

अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 18:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ambroodey, let's not argue the matter here. What we need is a role call of historians, published mainstream historians, who support one or the other viewpoint. WP is not about "capturing" the article for what you believe. We give all viewpoints -- in proportion. Minority viewpoints and fringe beliefs get less space. Zora 19:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly why do we need a Pakistani POV again? Do explain logically.Bakaman 19:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

There are 168,000,000 or so people living in Pakistan. Volumes put out by the country's university press certainly represent the views of some large fraction of those millions of people. Views held by many people should be mentioned. Yes, that goes for Hindutva views too. We list them, and the arguments for them, but we don't claim that they're true. Zora 19:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

By your twisted logic, Zora, Hindutva view should be given a precedence. BJP and its allies garnered 41% of votes in last elections! There is empirical evidence to suggest that much of history related discourse in Pakistan is nothing short of blatant revisionism. Not surprising given that their president himself sets the example with his shamelessly revisionist autobiography. We had nutjobs claiming Panini was an ancient Pakistani the otherday!. I'm not a guy to mince words. I will make it very clear: I simply dont trust Pakistani sources unless reviwed/backed by neutral sources. Same goes for Hindutva rags.

अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 21:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Nobody quoted any Hindutva view. Advani praised Jinnah. It really doesnt matter, there are 1 billion Indians and 140 million Bangladeshis, by that rationale, the POV will be roughly 75% Indian, 13% Pakistani, and 12% BangladeshiBakaman 19:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Some Pakistanis would agree with the History of Pakistan. Not necessarily all. Enough, at least, to merit mention. Some Indian citizens hold Hindutva views. A large chunk, but not all. There are probably more Indians who loathe those views. The question is whether any Hindutva-leaning accounts of the Partition have been prepared by respectable academics, and put out in a properly referenced and organized form by a scholarly press. If there is one such account, surely it should be included in the references. I don't know the literature well enough to point to such a thing. Let's wait for other editors, with the necessary academic background, to contribute here. Zora 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


Is there anything such as "Hindutva" view? Yes there are historians sympathetic to the movement but i daresay there is no such official "Hindutva view". Moreover why just concentrate on Hindutva? What about Islamists. Its about the time you stopped seeing Hindutva (not to mention Indian Imperialist Bots) everywhere.

अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 21:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

What is Hindutva essentially? Is it Hindu extremism or Hindu patriotism? And why is BJP always aligned with Hindutva? I have a feeling the definition of Hindutva varies considerably among the Wiki editors which is the foundation of all this quarreling. GizzaChat © 23:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
And why is BJP always aligned with Hindutva? A stupid question reallly. BJP traces its roots back to Jana Sangh which was basically RSS's political arm.अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 06:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Possibly. The fact that all the Hindutva articles on WP are a POV-fest because no non-neutral editors waste their time there may have something to do with it. Hornplease 00:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I think they are POV both ways. Sometimes they are very anti-Hindu and sometimes they are very anti-Muslim and co. GizzaChat © 00:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Look Hindutva = Hindu-tattva (Literally "Being Hindu"). People that dislike Hindutva, also therefore dislike the practice of Hinduism. The two are not separate.Bakaman 01:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The literal meaning does not always correspond to the practical meaning. I wait for those who are against Hindutva to put forward their definitions. GizzaChat © 01:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"Hindutva" as defined by Savarkar baguely means Indian nationalism that draws its 'inspiration' from Hindu/Maratha culture. It cant be called Hindu extremism is broadest sense, largely since Hindu fundamentalism is an oxymoron moreover, founding fathers of Hindutva were Agnostic Hindus. Hindutva rose as a complementary movement to Marathi cultural resurgence (all founders were Marathis (specifically Marathas and Chitpavan Konkanastha Brahmins and till 1970's most memebers of RSS were Marathis). Hindutva in these days is a vague ideology. It differs from one propounded by Savarkar to the one practised by 'parties' like Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal.

BTW I was an active HSS member till about 2003, before i left Hindutva for good. अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 06:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now we need Hornplease, Zora and others to provide their opinions. I seriously believe many of the problems here can be sorted out if everybody comes to a conclusion on what Hindutva is. GizzaChat © 09:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Umm dagizza that's like asking anti-Semites to define zionism.Bakaman 22:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Are saying that they both Hornplease and Zora are anti-Hindus. I don't think anti-Semitic is the same as anti-zionist just as anti-Hindu is not the same as Anti-Hindutva. Zora once explcitly said that she was Buddhist and that Buddhist can be considered as a sect of Hinduism. It is just that they think Hindutva is Hindu extremism, in which case they are against it just as I would be. However, you believe Hindutva is just being Hindu or to be proud of Hinduism in which case I myself would support it. That is where the misunderstanding lies. That is why these futile fighting is still going on. I'll send messages to both of them so they can provide some feedback. GizzaChat © 01:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Hindutva isn't anti-buddhist. Hindutva usually refers to jainism, sikhism, and buddhism as sects of Hinduism. Usually Hindutva are opposed to missionary-like activities of neo-buddhist such those mass conversion events. I'm going to have to agree with baka and broody on hornplease. he's a bit extreme.--D-Boy 11:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Girik,

To be fair, this really isnt the place to debate this. Whats more its not up to us or Zora to define Hindutva. She clearly is afflicted by what i'd call a "saffron blur" seeing the mythic 'Hindutva hand' in anything we do. Lets get this clear Indian nationalism != Hindutva. अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 20:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please fix the Non-Sense Biblio Links

Hello all please fix the links below to reach the collection of books not the introduction of the University. If the link goes to the University Mainpage it is bogus link, link should lead readers to collection of books and published papers on the subject instead. If the link only goes to the Description of the University please remove the link as the readers are not looking to write an article on the University, nor are they looking to take admission in the University.

Please fix the links to specific pages with list of related publications. There should be no attempt to confuse the readers or send them packing to far off places in foreign lands where these Universities are situated or futhest away from the truth.

Atulsnischal 22:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Bibliographies

Atulsnischal 22:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont see your problem. All the links do go to the bibliographies of the selected universities.Bakaman 22:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Please notice the differece between the following two links

The first link goes to the University Mainpage The second link goes to a real list of related books, which is ofcourse more appropriate

Atulsnischal 22:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Two Links which I have already corrected, please do not remove these, only improve:

Following two links (and all additional links which will be added in future) need correction by providing specific book lists on "Partition of India" and related topics:

Atulsnischal 22:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mention of Jammu and Kashmir in list

The list of communal/political conflicts since Partition is there only to illustrate the lingering effects of the violent upheaval. Readers can click on the linked articles to find out more. The list is not the place to make claims re the culpability of various sides in the conflicts. There's simply not room in a LIST to argue each case. It's best to leave out all commentary. Bakasuprman, that's not "anti-Hindu", it's just realistic. Whenever WP editors try to import strong disagreements into small spaces, continual edit wars result. Big controversies need big spaces. Zora 18:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please, instead of pretending to be neutral do declare your obvious views. Why do you keep adding a minor incident of Muslim Bengalis, while leaving out the fact that Assamese and Tripuris and Manipuris all hate Bengalis regardless of their religion. What's realistic is showing that Pakistan hardly trudges in communal amity. Rather, every group seems to be in armed conflict (as Nawaz Shah Bugti, Frontier Gandhi, and Sindhis rebelling would show). Yor revert vandalized the sections on J&K and Waziristan while adding one minor incident of ethnic (not even religoius) warfare in Assam. "Let's not get competitive" - seems that once the ball is in Pakistan's court, you're frantically trying to push it into the Indian end zone.Bakaman 18:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
So you think killing of 3000 peoples, leaving 100,000 homeless and burning of villages [8] was a "minor incident"? Surely this reflects extent of your POV--IsleScapeTalk 19:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess you didnt read my comment above or maybe the point didnt come across. Assmese/Tripuri/and Metiei people hate Bengalis anyways. PAkistan is better than India in massacres and genocide anyways, and the killing of Bengalis. Tthe killing of only 1000 people by a group of tribesmen in a remote village is irrelevant. I'm not surprised you zora etc dont care aboput the massacre of thre million Hindus by a maniacal force of subhuman Razakars or the fact that 2.25 million Bengali Muslims were killed [9]. This reflects the extent of your POV lol.Bakaman 19:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Loss of human life can never be commended. But this doesn't mean that you can downplay atrocities on one side and signify them on the other side.--IsleScapeTalk 19:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

ITs putting it in context. 3 million Hindus killed by genocidal maniacs (aka Razakars) vs 1000 people dead in tribal/ethnic warfare.Bakaman 20:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The Razakars (Pakistan) page which seems to be based on only one article, heavily edited by Bakasuprman and co., having removed POV tag by Bakasuprman, full of CN tags. And even that article gives casualty of 3 million "people" and not 3 million Hindus. So don't exaggerate the already worse situations. --IsleScapeTalk 01:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
It was edited mostly by Bangladeshi users, at which point it became a target for PAkistani vandals. The Hawaii link substantiates the 3 million Hindus. Its not my fault if you have it for Bangladesh, or if you're trying to whitewash genocide perpetrated by PAkistani forces.Bakaman 16:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Baka i think claiming moral quivalence is going to not going to help. Islescape, I for one dont doubt your sources, BUT the incident you mention wasnt notable (over 60000 Indians have died at hands of guys some people still like to call insurgents).

Whats more i find it intellectually dishonest and odious of Zora to revert my additions whlist keeping Islescape's non-notable additions. The 'real genocide' of 3-5.5 million Bengalis(disproportionate numebr of them being Hindus) isnt even mentioned here.

Zora we all have our biases. Dont pretend to sit on the fence. Give up all the pretensions of being neutral. That way you could interact with us a lil' better. अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 20:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to add separate items for Bengali massacres,ecause that's covered under Bangladesh Liberation War, which has a whole section devoted to atrocities. I think it's horrible that the people who did this are living comfortable lives in Pakistan right now. But the list is not the place to go into it.
I folded the mention of Assam into a general reference to the Seven Sisters, because there has been a great deal of civil conflict there -- native hill tribes, immigrant Bengalis, etc. I'm not up on all these conflicts. I used to get occasional updates from Buddhist social service networks, which were championing the plight of the Buddhist hill tribes. Mmmmmm ... in fact, the "massacre" that Islescape was claiming may have been in that context, original residents versus immigrants. So that one entry was iffy. Is this conflict covered in WP? There should be links in the Seven Sisters article. Zora 20:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't find it on WP. It has been implied as tribes-migrant conflict, but killers were clearly shouting hindu battle cries [10] and the dead were clearly Bengali Muslims[11]. And the number was around 3000[12] not "1000 only".--IsleScapeTalk 01:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Are you kidding? You added attacks on Sikhs by Hindus in 1984 in the first source, added unsubstantiated and exaggerated sources in the second, and used the wrong number for Bengali Muslims dying in the third. Wow, that's actually pathetic. Remember Assamese and tribals have nothing on Pakistani's when it comes to killing Bengalis. We might as well add the fact that the Jamuna was red after the Razakars passed by with Hindu and Moslem Bengali united in their blood flowing down the river.Bakaman 16:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

You are mincing the words and diverting the discussion. It's never a pleasure for me to talk of human toll, but I can help you understand what's on these sites. If you refer to the above hyperlinks:

  • first one goes to NY Times (It is a newspaper!), which lists a whole row of violence in India, including Hindu-Muslim riots in Bombay, etc.
  • second to About.com, which is not a propaganda site
  • third to Time Magazine, and if you can read well, "more than 1,000 Muslim Bengalis" were killed in one go while 3000 died in the whole turbulance.

Per Zora, I would suggest you keep your conflicts to yourselves and not spread them on WP. It's for your own good.--IsleScapeTalk 20:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Mincing words? Trying to string three unrelated incidents (one with absolutely no accountability - where did they get the figures?) is called original research in the real world. University of Hawaii is hardly a partisan source. Time magazine talks about Bengalis being killed by tribals. Its a well known fact that non-Bengalis in NE India hate Bengalis for their own reasons (Tripuris are a minority in their own state, tribals land is encroached, Assamese get shunted by "affirmative action"). I find your veiled threats highly laughable especially when you have no problems harrassing users on ANI. Per Zora, like I really care what she thinks, per zora I'm a "perpetrator of massacre" and a "Hindutva kook" as well.Bakaman 23:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

my deepest sympathy for your schizophrenic state whence web refs have to be explained, and all editing efforts to neutralize your tag team POV seem to you as harrassment--IsleScapeTalk 00:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Buddhists are hardly in conflict with the Indian government. The one state ruled by "Hindu fascists" in the NE (Arunachal Pradesh) is the only state where Buddhists are actually allowed to live. Inter-tribal/ethnic conflict is the norm in the NE, Assamese vs. Bangla, Manipuri vs. Naga, Bodo vs. Assamese, Tripuri vs Bengali, Naga vs everyone thats not a fundamentalist Christian, etc.Bakaman 20:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Bakasuprman, I didn't say that Buddhists were in conflict with the Indian government. I said that as far as I knew, a great deal of the conflict was indigenous versus immigrant. Many of the indigenes are Buddhist; the immigrants may be Muslim or Hindu. I don't doubt that in addition to the expansion of lowland populations up into the highlands there is a pre-existing landscape of hill groups continually at war with each other. I haven't had time to look, but whatever articles there are on such conflicts should probably be linked to the Seven Sisters article. Zora 21:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More list problems

The list used to say just that there were several Indo-Pak wars, and give links to the articles on those wars. Nobleeagle has appended arguments to the links, claiming that India was right, India was attacked, etc. A list is not the place to make those arguments. The name on the list is the link to the main article on that war, where Indians and Pakistanis can play Indo-Pak mini-war to their hearts' content. If we leave pro-India arguments on the list, then a Pakistani editor is going to want to add Pro-Pakistani material. At which point each list entry is going to become the article to which it is linked. Just leave the arguments out of it, guys. It's enough to know that there was a conflict, and to have a link to the main article on that conflict. Zora 06:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

All that was presented was the cassus beli and the result of the war, one or two sentences, hardly any opinions at all. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 06:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It didn't seem POV to you, but it seemed POV to me, and I believe would certainly do so to a Pakistani. It is best just to leave it out. There's not enough space to conduct an argument. Zora 07:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Proving that your POV is aligned to the Pakistani POV.Bakaman 15:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Or proving that what was written Zora thinks that it was aligned to an Indian POV and all Zora wants is NPOV. When I read it, it didn't seem very POV. The only thing that was constantly reinforced was that it was Pakistan who invaded India every single time and my knowledge of the wars isn't good enough to know if that is the case. In general, I agree that lists should stat stay as lists and the details should be placed elsewhere in the article on the those war articles, not on the partition of India article. GizzaChat © 23:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Zora doesnt want NPOV... she wants to 'balance' it out with Pakistani POV... Why not mention that Pakistanis think that thye won the 1965 and Kargil wars. If she was for stats then why did she selectively revert my edits whilst keeping Islescape's intact?अमेय आर्यन DaBrood© 15:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Stats was my spelling mistake. I meant "stay." GizzaChat © 01:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Gizza, Zora, I urge you to simply take a look at each of the war articles and tell me what I did wrong, then I can fix it. Gizza says the only thing that seems POV is the idea that Pakistan invaded every time, but it's fact. It's not as if India invaded in 1947 after Hari Singh gave the territory to India, you can't invade your own territory. In 1965, did India carry out Operation Gibralter and try to infiltrate and sabotage its own territory. 1971 is tricky but in the end, Pakistan declared war first. Then in 1999, India was commended for not ever crossing the LoC, let along invading the other side. Nobleeagle [TALK] [C] 03:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I just agreed with Zora about the lists staying as lists. I prefer the information about the wars be moved to the war articles since this is about the partition. Yes they are related but a link is sufficient IMHO. GizzaChat © 03:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Noble. Short summary needs to be there to establish context. Plus, all of the summaries are factually correct and agree with the wp articles themselves. It is not our fault that history is history.Rumpelstiltskin223 04:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The summaries being re-inserted are biased towards India. Note comments like "India won international respect for the way it handled the war". That is just not NPOV. I'm not Pakistani, I have no fondness for Pakistan, I just believe in NPOV. That means leaving arguments about who started the war, who won the war, who got "international respect" in the articles about those wars, where there's room to give all sides. Guys, this is not a game, where the object is to defeat the other side. NPOV means that we have to give the best arguments for all notable sides, in neutral fashion. Those summaries are not neutral and not needed. They're not even relevant ... this article is an article about the Partition. The material on events after the Partition is not intended to be a complete history of South Asia since the Partition. It's just a pointer to articles where readers can find out more. Pointers and lists should not turn into arguments. Zora 04:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Cleansing?

The anti-Hindu violence in Kashmir is being as Islamic militants who have ethnically cleansed Kashmiri Hindus. Although violence in this region is pretty bad, academic and non-POV sources do not call it actual "ethnic cleansing." Rumpelstiltskin223 gave sources calling this an ethnic cleansing, but two of these sources are partisan/POV and the other source, written by a guest writer for rediff, doesn't even talk about what ethnic cleansing is. Now, it seems that Nobleeagle has brought the total number of citations for that one term to six, as if trying to prove the point that whats hapening in Kashmir is ethnic cleansing, but none of them seem notable. However, without academic and reputable sources (a guest writer on Rediff for a partisan newpaper (Kashmiri Herald)is hardly academic or reputable) that explain why this is an ethnic cleansing, the term "ethnic cleansing" should be replaced with "killing" or "targeting" or whatnot, as it is not recognized as being full-out ethnic cleansing. After all, the Islamic militants in Kashmir would kill anyone who was in support of the Indian govt, including many Muslims as well as Hindus. Mar de Sin Speak up! 02:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

So rediff and satp are "non-notable"? I find Genocide denial to be seriously offensive. Rumpelstiltskin223 02:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
So find an academic and nonPOV source that explains why this is full-out ethnic cleansing. Mar de Sin Speak up! 02:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
satp is quite npov, thaa. They are totally non-partisan. They even talk abt Ranvir Sena. Rumpelstiltskin223 02:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
SATP doesn't not note any instances of anti-Muslim terrorism in India. And once again, I would request you to find an academic and nonPOV source. Another alternative which I think you would agree with is to follow the article Terrorism in Kashmir's lead in describing the violence in Kashmir for consistency's sake. After all, this article actually focuses on this issue. Mar de Sin Speak up! 02:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no anti-Muslim terrorism in India. There is anti-Muslim communal violence,obviously, but that is not the same thing. Rumpelstiltskin223 02:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Please address my other points instead. I do not wish to get into another debate as to what constitutes as terrorism as opposed to just violence. Mar de Sin Speak up! 02:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
What points? Ethnic Cleansing means when an ethnic group is forced to mass-migrate bu another. The K.Pands were forcibly removed by Islamists so that's it. Rumpelstiltskin223 02:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Well here are the points laid out:
  1. Find an academic non-POV source describing why this consititutes as ethnic cleansing as opposed just strong violence.
  2. OR Another alternative which I had thought you might agree with: follow the article Terrorism in Kashmir's lead in describing the violence in Kashmir (for consistency especially).

These are the two points. Otherwise, the outright declaration that the conflict is "ethnic cleansing" is not justified. (XXX accuses.... or the like is acceptable although an outright labelling of a controversial term is not.) Mar de Sin Speak up! 02:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

SATP is quite non-POV.Rumpelstiltskin223 02:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I think its best to try option # 2 for consistency. Mar de Sin Speak up! 04:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I think option #1 is satisfied very well, thaa Rumpelstiltskin223 04:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment copied from article on the Book: Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947 discussion page

[edit] Dear User Zora

After trying to censor Partition of India page continuelly, and asking to not include this important book there, now you have come directly to the book page and are now trying to censor it. Please do not continually try to censor the truth.

Sincerely

(Refering to discussion on Talk:Partition of India)

Atulsnischal 06:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

What you see as truth, others see as hatred and prejudice. When there's a conflict, WP presents all sides. Zora 08:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Not if you can't prove it. India Rising 09:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dear User Zora

I have noticed that you are vandalising articles and sytemmatically removing any reference to the historically accurate atrocities committed by Islamic fundamentalists not only on this page but elsewhere too.

No body is against Islam as a religion, but we should all be against the fundamentalist and terrorist attitudes of individuals whoever they might be.

Please refrain from "Vandalizing" articles by "ALTERING THE TRUTH" OR sytemmatically "CENSORING" atrocities commited by Islamic fundamentalists and terrorist.

Sincerely

Atulsnischal 14:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earlier requests for Zora on Partition of India to not vadalize this book

Regarding this post of yours to Ambroodey [13], I find it puzzling that you defend biased Pakistani nationalist books so assiduously, yet constantly revert Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947 from Partition of India. If you claim that both Hindu and Muslim POV's belong there then both these books must necessarily belong there. Why such persistent double standards? Rumpelstiltskin223 02:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

He's got a point there.--D-Boy 19:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers in demographics section

If 2% are 20 million, it doens't make sense that 1.94% are 21 million. Anyone knows the right numbers? Aviad2001 21:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

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