User talk:PANONIAN/Archive04

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Panonian, kako da na onoj stranici history, koja zabelezava neke izmene dodam kratki komentar. I da, jos nesto, jel smem da izmenim nesto sto pise o Kosovu, pa da dam razlog ili ce da me ukinu. Hvala Gianni ita 21:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC) Hvala ti za ovo objasnjenje, ali evo ovi vratise na staru verziju. Ja sam stvarno bio neutralan u onom sto sam dodao ali jebiga, ostade da je KLA nastala kao neka neorganizovana vojska koja se borila za sam zivot albanskog zivlja. Mislim da je to stvarno sramota zbog svih zrtava i imajuci u vidu koji su ljudi na celu kla, i cime se bave, ne znam kome da pisem, ovi ce stalno da vracaju na staru verziju. Gianni ita 22:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zadar

Mozes li pogledati sledece glasanje o clanku 'Kristalna noc u Zadru' [1]. Clanak ce biti obrisan u protivnom, kao sto se uklanjaju i ostala svedocanstva o stradanju Srba - uprkos svim dokazima i linkovima. Hvala.


Nemanyya 05:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About Transylvania

Mr. Pannonian watch and think about!

Public letter of Sabin Gherman a Romanian from Transylvania (Sabin Gherman - chairman of Pro Transilvania) originally appeared in Monitorul de Cluj:

I am fed-up with Romania!

by Sabin Gherman

I am fed-up with John Doe (Transl. note: in romanian Mitica), with the smartarseness and with the Gypsy-like behaviour that are associated to this country name, Romania. I talk to several politicians who hold the power and all of them tell me that "we have no chance whatsoever"(Transl. note: to join modern Europe). I read in the newspapers and find that the government took care to give more funds to Bucharest than to the entire Transylvania, from the '98 revenue. I drive the car South and East and I notice the difference: there are better highways there, funds are always pumped in there. I wait in line at the revenue office, at the state-owned bank, at anything state-owned and tips are given everywhere. Bribes. Payola. Turkish habits, which one cannot do without.

So what? I don't want to emigrate, just because nothing has been done in ten years. I'm just fed-up with Romania. With its synonyms. With its heroisms taken out of any historical context. Other nations show their pride in Michelangelo or Da Vinci, whereas I'm shown the letter of Neacsu from Cimpulung (Transl.note: the first document written in Romanian, dated 1521 and sent by Neacsu to the Saxon mayor of Brasov, Transylvania, with reference to Turkish war ship movements on the Danube). What a fantastic achievement, this delation! (Transl, note: a quotation from Ion Luca Caragiale) If I regret anything at all now, at 30 years old, it is that I was born here, that I am among those who had been taught in school that this people, - "the beoble" (Transl. note: another quotation from Ion Luca Caragiale), Gentlemen, was in a permanent erection in front of history. What people? We, who hadn't shown virility at least once, we, who were packing up in times of invasion and ran for our lives to the forests, we, who were fainting in the halls where history was being decided (Transl. note: reference to the Romanian Foreign minister's faint, when he heard the Vienna decision in 1940, returning Northern Transylvania to Hungary), we, who nowadays scream for a piece of bread and don't know what more tricks to invent.

Here we are, bum-patched, elbow-ripped, we enter history as if a filthy pub in the neighbourhood. Between two burps and a swearing, the people (the beoble, gentlemen!), talk fiercely about Posada (Transl. note: the pass where King Karoly Robert of Hungary lost the battle in 1330 after being attacked from the back), about Michael The Brave (Mihai Viteazul, prince of Walachia, or Muntenia, who conquered Transylvania and Moldavia at about 1600), about "Long live and prosper Moldavia, Transylvania and Muntenia!" (Transl.note: historical provinces of the nowadays Romania). And yet another victorious burp. I'm fed-up with being ashamed of myself. That's why I tell my Western friends that I am from Transylvania. Altra paese. Other country. L'autre pays. I'm fed-up with being told by all non-Transylvanians that here, in Transylvania, I have troubles with Hungarians. That, weren't they... That hunger is the mother of wisdom. That federalisation is the most terrible danger watching me, stalking on me around the corner of the tower of flats along to the mugger whom I pay taxes for. That I ought to tighten the belt, as if Nasreddine's donkey (Transl.note: reference to folk stories about Nasreddine Hoca or Hodja). In the name of the "unity" and "prosperity" of the romanian kin. Yet I, who have been waiting for 10 years for a real unity, the unity of Transylvanian parliament members for Transylvania, the civic campaign to save the few that is left.

Yet I, praying each evening to finally come to an end with László Tőkés, with his ethnical aberrations against everyone. (Transl.note: ironical reference to the Hungarian Reformat bishop, the frequent target of Romanian nationalists' attacks). Yet, in vain. So far. Some people carried out the Unification (of Transylvania with Romania) in 1918. Other people put their hopes in a Swiss-type confederation, together with Hungary, Czechia, and Austria. And still others, as Ioan Slavici, said that the unification of Transylvania with Romania is hogwash, and were jailed. Now we can see its outcome. Sobriety, elegance, and discipline - features of Transylvania - were invaded by johndoeisms, by ordinary Balkan habits, by the civilisation of the pumpkin seeds. It was Romania's chance to unite with Transylvania, to learn something from its organisation, from its systems of values. It did not happen so; Romania swallowed Transylvania - this is why nowadays one can slide every three yards on the saliva spat on the great boulevards. It is not myself who says this, but someone equal to God, Cioran (Transl.note: Romanian born Emil Cioran (1911-1995), active in France as a writer). Many will throw in their two cents to argue the aforesaid. But: how many of you didn't go to Bucharest with your filled bag, with the famous wovenbag, stuffed with bottles of hard drink? And you didn't bring it to your friends, but to chief executive officers, to ministries, to high places behind closed doors. And if, naive as you are, you didn't carry those bags, how many times weren't you warned that one enters Bucharest with one's head, since your hands are busy with "luggages". Bucharest, this place where the phthisic genius kisses the billionaire illiterate, taught all the country that "one is given". "Meat is given", "Eggs are given". One is given. Mollusk attitude.

One has no rights here, only conventionalities. Here one eats pumpkin seeds, one uses to talk like: "there is many", and people generally are born, spawn, and die. They haven't learned anything from Hungarians, they haven't learned anything from Austrians, they haven't learned anything from Germans. Too early they switched from "forktion" (Transl.note: a quotation from Vasile Alecsandri; an ironical reference to snobs, who, having no good French skills, thought enough adding the -tion suffix to the Romanian word furculita=fork, to get its foreign version) to "Romanian brigades pierce through Carpathians!" (Transl. note: the marching song of the royal Romanian army when in 1916, after two years of neutrality, attacked the Hungarian held Transylvania, but withdrawn soon, after 3 weeks, because of military failure). Maybe this is why the bravest "defenders" of Transylvania were born beyond the Carpathians. Maybe this is why Europe ends somewhere near Brasov. There's where Transylvania ends as well. Since, besides language and poor highways we have nothing in common.

We will have to wake up. To admit that what happens now is a comedy. But one in which your children ask you for a chocolate, and you just raise your shoulders. In which, tremblingly, you always look for a recommendation for anything. In which you whisper round corners about the villas of policemen, or of parliament members. A world doomed to borrowing from one salary to the next one. We will have to see that it can be otherwise. That we are different. That all the evil comes from Bucharest, from the luxury palaces, where politicians dispute the bone without any shame at all. We will have to see that it's not Hungarians, or Germans, or people of Burundi those who are our enemies, but ourselves, who live from one day to the next one, doomed to steal and swear around corners. We have nothing what to tell each other anymore, we have been doing this for 75 years (Transl. note: since 1918 when Transylvania was united with Romania) and we are 75 times poorer now. Otherwise, have nice days - I'm fed-up with Romania, I want my Transylvania!

(Sept. 16, 1998)

or in Romanian: Sabin Gherman : M-am saturat de Romania.

M-am saturat de Mitica, de smechereala si tigania pe care le lasa in urma acest nume de tara, Romania. Vorbesc cu diversi politicieni, aflati la putere, si toti imi spun: "nu mai avem nici o sansa". Citesc prin ziare ca Bucurestiului guvernul a avut grija sa-i aloce de la bugetul '98 o suma mai mare decit a intregului Ardeal. Calatoresc cu masina prin sud si est si vad diferenta: acolo sint drumuri mai bune, se fac mereu investitii. Stau la coada la finante, la CEC, la orice apartine Statului si peste tot se da spaga. Ciubuc. Pesches. Turcisme fara de care nu se poate. Si atunci? Eu nu vreau sa emigrez numai pentru ca de 10 ani nu se face nimic. Doar ca m-am saturat de Romania. De sinonimele ei. De eroismele ei, scoase din orice context istoric. Altii se lauda cu Michelangelo sau Da Vinci si mie mi se arata scrisoarea lui Neacsu din Cimpulung. Fantastica realizare delatiunea!... Daca regret ceva, acum la treizeci de ani, e ca m-am nascut aici, ca fac parte din cei ce au invatat pe la scoli ca poporul asta, boborul, domnilor, a fost intr-o erectie continua in fata istoriei. Care popor? Noi, cei care n-am facut nici macar o data dovada virilitatii, noi, care in timpul invaziilor ne ridicam poalele in cap si fugeam in paduri, noi, care lesinam prin salile unde se hotara istoria, noi, care astazi ne scremem pentru o bucata de piine si nu mai stim ce smechereli sa mai inventam. Astia sintem, peticiti in cur, rupti in coate; intram in istorie ca-ntr-o infecta crisma de cartier. Intre doua ghioraituri si-o injuratura, poporul (boborul, domnilor), vorbeste batos despre Posada, despre Mihai Viteazu, despre "traiasca si-nfloreasca Moldova, Ardealul si Tara Romaneasca". Si - iarasi - un ghiorait victorios. M-am saturat sa-mi fie rusine. De aceea, prietenilor mei din vest le spun ca sint din Transilvania. Alta tara. Altra paese. Other country. L'autre pays. M-am saturat sa-mi spuna toti neardelenii ca aici, in Ardeal, am probleme cu ungurii. Ca daca n-ar fi ei... Ca foamea este mama intelepciunii... Ca federalizarea este cel mai mare pericol care ma paste, ma pindeste de dupa coltul blocului odata cu borfasul pentru care platesc impozit. Ca musai trebuie sa string cureaua, ca magarul lui Nastratin. In numele "unitatii", "propasirii" neamului rrromanesc. Si eu, care astept de 10 ani o unire adevarata, una a parlamentarilor ardeleni pentru Ardeal, o ofensiva civica pentru salvarea putinului ramas. Si eu, care ma rog in fiecare seara sa se termine odata cu Tokes Laszlo, cu aberatiile lui etnice impotriva tuturor. Si tot degeaba. Deocamdata. Niste oameni au facut Unirea de la 1918. Altii sperau intr-o confederatie de tip helvetic, impreuna cu Ungaria, Cehia si Austria. Altii, ca Slavici, au spus ca unirea Transilvaniei cu Romania e o porcarie si au facut puscarie. Acum se vede ce-a iesit. Seriozitatea, eleganta, disciplina - atribute ale Ardealului - au fost invadate de miticisme, de balcanisme ordinare, de civilizatia semintelor de bostan. Era o sansa pentru Romania sa se uneasca cu Transilvania, sa invete cite ceva din organizarea ei, din sistemele ei de valori. N-a fost asa; Romania a inghitit Transilvania - de aceea din trei in trei metri aluneci astazi pe flegmele de pe marile bulevarde. N-o spun eu, ci un egal al lui Dumnezeu, Cioran. Vor sari o gramada sa contrazica cele spuse mai sus. Dar: citi dintre voi n-au mers la Bucuresti cu plasa plina, cu celebra plasa de rafie in care se inghesuiau sticlele de palinca? Si n-o duceati la prieteni, ci la directori, la ministere, la inalte porti ferecate. Si daca, naivi fiind, n-ati dus acele plase, de cite ori vi s-a sugerat ca la Bucuresti se intra cu capul, miinile fiind ocupate cu "bagaje". Bucurestiul, acest loc in care genialul tebecist se pupa cu analfabetul miliardar, a invatat toata tara ca se da. "Se da carne". "Se da oua". Se da. Mentalitate de molusca. Aici nu ai drepturi, ci complezente. Aici se maninca seminte de bostan, se vorbeste cu "este multi" si lumea in general se naste, se inmulteste si moare. N-au invatat nimic de la unguri, n-au invatat nimic de la austrieci, n-au invatat nimic de la nemti. Au trecut prea repede de la furculision la Treceti batalioane romane Carpatii. Poate de aceea cei mai vajnici "aparatori" ai Transilvaniei s-au nascut dincolo de Carpati. Poate de aceea Europa se termina pe undeva pe linga Brasov. Acolo se termina si Transilvania. Pentru ca in afara de limba si sosele proaste nu avem nimic in comun. Va trebui sa ne trezim. Sa recunoastem ca ceea ce se intimpla acum e o comedie. Dar una in care copiii va cer o ciocolata si voi dati din umeri. In care mereu infrigurati cautati o pila pentru orice. In care susotiti pe la colturi despre vilele celor din politie sau din parlament. O lume sortita imprumutului de la un salariu la altul. Va trebui sa vedem ca se poate si altfel. Ca sintem altfel. Ca relele cele mari vin de la Bucuresti, de la luxoasele palate in care politicienii se bat fara nici o jena pe ciolan. Va trebui sa vedem ca nu ungurii sau nemtii sau burundezii sint inamicii nostri, ci noi insine, traitorii de pe azi pe minine, obligati sa furam si sa injuram pe la colturi. Nu mai avem ce sa ne spunem; am facut-o 75 de ani si sintem de 75 de ori mai saraci. In rest, zile bune - m-am saturat de Romania, vreau Transilvania mea.

and finally in Serbian :

Otvoreno pismo rumuna Sabina Germana objavljeno 16. septembra 1998. godine u novinama Monitorul de Kluž.

Pun mi je k... (op. prev.:doslovno bi bilo Sit sam) Mitice (op. prev.: rumunska varijanta Gedže) hohštapleraja, vrdanja i svega što asocira na državu Rumuniju. Razgovaram sa raznoraznim političarima, i svi mi govore "Nemamo nikakve šanse" (op. prev.: stići u Evropu). Čitam u novinama da je iz budžeta za 1998. godinu vlada više novaca dodelila Bukureštu nego čitavoj Transilvaniji. Putujem autom prema jugu, istoku i uočavam razliku – na jugu su bolji putevi, više se investira u privredu. Čekam u redu kod poreznika, ispred državne banke, svugde se daju napojnice. Mito, harač. Turski običaji bez kojih se ne može.

Pa šta? Ja neću da emigriram samo zato što se u poslednjih 10 godina ništa nije promenilo. Samo što mi je pun k... Rumunije. Sa njenim sinonimima. K...čenjima koja nemaju blage veze sa istorijom. Drugi se ponose sa Mikelanđelom i Leonardom a meni turaju pod nos pismo kaluđera Neakše iz Kimpulunga (op. prev.: Prvi pisani tekst na rumunskom iz 1521. godine, poslato saskom gradonačelniku Brašova u Transilvaniju o pokretima turskih ratnih brodova na Dunavu). Koje izvanredno potkazivačko dostignuće. Ako nešto žalim u tridesetoj, to je da sam ovde rođen. Da sam jedan od onih koje su učili u školi da je ovaj narod –navod (op. prev.: izraz koji je upotrebio Jon Luka Karadžale, "boborul" umesto "poporul") odvajkada stajao uspravno pred istorijom. Koji narod? Da smo se bar jednom poneli kao junaci, mi koji smo pred neprijateljem neustrašivo bežali u šumu, mi koji smo se onesvešćivali u salonima u kojima se odlučivalo o istoriji (op. prev.: rumunski ministar inostranih poslova se onesvestio u Beču 1940. godine, kad je čuo da je Severna Transilvanija vraćena Mađarskoj), mi koji se i danas prepiremo oko komada hleba i koji ne znamo kakvu novu podlost da izmislimo.

To smo mi, zakrpljenih gaća, poderanih rukava, i stupamo na scenu istorije kao u neki prljavi seoski bircuz. A narod (gospodo "navod") u trenucima između dva podrigivanja i jedne psovke besedi u stavu mirno o Posadi (op. prev.: klanac u Vlaškoj gde je mađarski kralj Karlo Robert poražen 1330. godine), o Mihaju Hrabrom (op. prev.: Mihai Viteazul, vlaški vojvoda koji je pokorio Moldaviju i deo Transilvanije 1600. godine), o "Da živi i cveta Moldavija, Transilvanija i Vlaška" (op. prev.: Istorijske kneževine današnje Rumunije). Pa još jedno pobedničko podrigivanje. Pun mi je k... i srama. Baš zbog toga mojim prijateljima sa zapada kažem da sam iz Transilvanije. Altra paese. Other country. L'autre pays. Pun mi je k... toga, da mi svi koji nisu iz Transilvanije govore da ja ovde u Transilvaniji imam problema sa mađarima, jer kad njih ne bi bilo,... da je glad majka znanja. Da je federalizacija najveća pošast koja me vreba kao džeparoš iz prikrajka, kome plaćam porez. Da moram da stegnem kaiš, kao magarac Nasredina Hodže. Zarad "jedinstva" i "prosperiteta" rrrumunskoga roda. A ja već 10 godina čekam pravo jedinstvo, jedinstvo transilvanijskih poslanika, građansku kampanju da se spasi što se još spasiti može.

Ja, koji se svake večeri molim za propast Lasla Tekeša (op. prev.: biskup reformatorske crkve u Transilvaniji, meta nacionalističkih ispada) i njegovih etničkih zabluda. Bezuspešno. Za sada. Jedni su izneli teret ujedinjenja, 1918 godine. Drugi su se nadali konfederaciji švajcarskog tipa, zajedno sa Mađarskom, Češkom i Austrijom. Treći kao Joan Slavici su rekli da je ujedinjenje Transilvanije sa Rumunijom svinjarija, i stavljeni su iza brave. Sad se vidi šta je od toga ispalo. Ozbiljnost, eleganciju i disciplinu koje su krasile Transilvaniju je preplavila gedžovanština, ordinarne balkanske gluposti i ražanj civilizacija (op. prev.:doslovno bi bilo civilizacija bundevinih semenki). Rumunija je imala šansu da od Transilvanije nauči nešto o ustrojstvu i sistemu vrednosti jednog društva. No to se nije desilo. Rumunija je progutala Transilvaniju. E baš zbog toga na velikim bulevarima možete da se okliznete na ispljuvcima, na svaka 3 metra . Ne tvrdim to ja, nego neko ko je ravan Bogu Emil Cioran (op. prev.: Emil Cioran 1911-1995 francuski pisac rumunskog porekla). Mnogi bi sad da demantuju ove reči. Ali pitam se ko od vas nije išao za Bukurešt sa punom torbom, sa famoznom pletenom torbom punih flaša rakije. Ne, niste to nosili vašim prijateljima nego direktorima, ministrima, na "visoke adrese" iza zamandaljenih vrata. Ali ako ste išli praznih ruku, koliko puta ste opominjani da se u Bukureštu vrata otvaraju glavom, jer su vam ruke "zauzete". Bukurešt – u kome se tuberkulozni genije ljubi sa nepismenim milijarderom – je naučio celu zemlju da "nešto deli". "Meso se deli", "jaja se dele". Deli se. Bezkičmeno ponašanje.

Tu ne postoji pravo, samo loši običaji. Grickaju semenke i govore "mnoga je" a raja se rađa, mresti se i umire. Ništa nisu naučili od mađara, ništa nisu naučili od austrijanaca, ništa nisu naučili od nemaca. Prerano su prešli sa furkulicije (op. prev.: izraz je upotrebio Vasile Aleksandri, furculita- vile na rumunskom + tion = furculition, da izgleda otmenije - sinonim za malograđanštinu - na srpskom "limunacija") na "Rumunske brigade pređite Karpate" (op. prev.: koračnica Rumunske Kraljevske Armije kada je Rumunija 1916. posle dve godine neutralnosti napala Transilvaniju, ali je poražena nakon 3 nedelje). Verovatno su zbog toga najvatreniji "branitelji" Transilvanije rođeni preko Karpata. Možda se i Evropa zato završava kod Brašova. Tamo se završava i Transilvanija. Ništa nas drugo ne vezuje osim zajedničkog jezika i loših puteva.

Treba da se probudimo. Da priznamo da to što nam se dešava jeste komedija. Komedija u kojoj deca traže od vas čokoladu, a vi sležete ramenima. U kojoj drhteći tražite potporu. Gde se na ćoškovima šuška o vilama policajaca i državnih funkcionera. Jedan svet kome je suđeno da između dve plate živi od pozajmica. Treba da shvatimo da možemo i drugačije. Da smo drugačiji. Da sve što je zaista loše dolazi iz Bukurešta, iz vila u kojima se naši političari svađaju oko privilegija. Treba da uočimo da nisu mađari, nemci ili burundijci naši najveći neprijatelji, već mi sami koji živimo od jutra do sutra i kojima je suđeno da kradu i psuju po ćoškovima. Nema šta da kažemo jedni drugima, za 75 godina sve je rečeno i bar 75 puta smo siromašniji. Inače želim vam dobar dan – pun mi je k... Rumunije, hoću svoju Transilvaniju.

Bendeguz 05:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

In my sight the central thought is in following phrases : Sobriety, elegance, and discipline - features of Transylvania - were invaded by johndoeisms, by ordinary Balkan habits, by the civilisation of the pumpkin seeds. It was Romania's chance to unite with Transylvania, to learn something from its organisation, from its systems of values. It did not happen so; Romania swallowed Transylvania - this is why nowadays one can slide every three yards on the saliva spat on the great boulevards.

There is too much from johndoeisms, Balkan habits, and roasting-jack civilization in Transylvania, and in Vojvodina too. And there is just a little of organisation and systems of values.

In 1914 Vojvodina had the second densest railway network in Europe. Where is this today? The complete railroad is in collapse, in ruines. There is only 5-6 railways in use. And what you think about the patched roads, highways, about the poisoned waters, about the 40 years old dams, about the "almost dead" villages, about the "almost dead" cultural life, about the "half empty" theatres and the full as an egg stadiums, with concerts of the singers with artificial boobbies.

What is your opinion about the devastated industry, about the empty working halls, about the badly bad working discipline, about the occasionally paided and underpaided working class, about the maximized thieving limit (the allowed sum is 15,000 Dinars = cca.170 Euros), about the newly rich people, about the illiterate billionaires, about the corruption, about the impinges of police, about a lots of undetected crimes?

Vojvodina was the richest part of the newborn state in 1918. And here we are bum-patched and elbow-ripped. Why? Because, the “Big Brother” swallowed Vojvodina, and because, they haven’t learned anything from nobody, and they haven’t learned anything from history. Bendeguz 17:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Watch the "Utisak nedelje" on the TV B92 about "culture".

Sorry. Bendeguz 19:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

E cao, evo napravismo napokon normalan clanak o Kosovu. Sta kazes? Samo jos jedno pitanje da te pitam i vise necu da te smaram, kako prave ovi useri one boxove gde im pise, ovaj radi ovo, ovaj pije ovo, ovaj podrzava ovo... Gianni ita 20:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Zrenjanin

Zbog cega uklanjate moje slike koje sam postavio? Alexzr88 21:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC) Ne,nije problem sto pise na madjarskom. Autor slika koje postavljam sam ja. Kako da definisem copyright?Alexzr88 07:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

A gde treba tacno da napisem to o copyright-u? Alexzr88 18:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Postavio sam sliku suda,umesto vase.Nadam se da odgovara. Alexzr88 20:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

OK. Hvala ti sto si rasporedio moje slike u odgovarajuce kategorije! Alexzr88 17:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

E,super si odradio ono sa "zastavom Zrenjanina". Zrenjanin nema zastavu, vec samo grb iz 1968. Jos samo kad bi postavio prikladniju mapu SCG sa obelezenim Zrenjaninom...Alexzr88 19:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the Macedonian census data

Hi,Yes it shows the new municipalities, you can visit this site: www.mls.gov.mk for the municipalities, but its entirely in macedonian, and this one for the last macedonian census data:www.stat.gov.mk, but i haven't checked it .I hope i was helpfull.Vlatko 14,34 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help!

Добио сам ову карту помоћу screen capture-а са ове странице. Био бих захвалан, ако би ми могао помоћи око лиценце, јер уопште немам појма око тога :) Ако може да се користи та карта, онда ћу је употребити за серију чланака о општинама Србије (да означим где је која општина). Хвала унапред! --estavisti 15:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Improvement Belgrade

You may wish to vote for Belgrade at the Article Improvement Drive page, here. --estavisti 21:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian Lands

Nekoliko pitanja:

  • Da li je Banat 1941-1944 zaista bio unutar Srbije? Ako jeste, mozes li saznati puno ime toga entiteta? Bilo bi dobro i da znamo puno ime Srbije iz 1941-1944. Ja sam cuo da se koristilo Kraljevina...
  • Mislim da je besmisleno staviti iz 1941-1944 Crnu Goru u to. Znas i sam zasto...
  • Zar nisu Srbija i Crna Gora bile Socijalisticke Republike do pada Milosevica, 2000 godine?
  • Zar nije Socijalisticka Autonomna Regija Kosovo i Metohija ostala takva do 1999, kada UN preuzima? A zar Socijalisticka Autonomna Provincija Vojvodina nije isto do 2000, do demokratizacije nosila ime?
  • Zasto si u Istorijskim ponovio Srbija, Vojvodina, Kosovo i Metohija, Crna Gora? --HolyRomanEmperor 23:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Izvini za SAO Zapadnu Slavoniju. Evo vracam je. Imam ideju. Sto ne izbacis englesko ime iz clanka Vojvodina sa one tabele desno? Vec se nalazi na pocetku clanka... Ni jedan drugi takav clanak ne sadrzi slicno. Razlog zasto Kosovo i Metohija ima Kosovo je zbog UN-a. Predlazem da bude cirilicno sprsko velikim slovima, pa ispod latinicno nesto manjim i onda malo sva ostala. I da, pogledaj History of Vojvodina. Tu pise da joj je Milosevic skinuo autonomiju 1990. Nije, 1989 je. A zasto se tu spominje Kosovo kada je to clanak o Vojvodini? --HolyRomanEmperor 23:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Secam se 1998 kada su se zaostravale tenzije na Kosovu i Metohiji, i S. M. je rekao ...u ime Socijalisticke Republike Srbija, a kada je Seselj pretio da nece biti Albanaca na Kosmetu 1999, i tu je upotrebio Socijalisticka Republika Srbija.

Od 1945 do 1963 svaka clanica FNRJ-a se zvala Narodna Republika. Ja sam hteo da preciziramo iskljucivo srpske zemlje tu, pa to ne treba navoditi od 1945 do 1974, jere je tada sprski narod bio zvanican u celoj Jugoslaviji. Od 1974 se sve rasparcalo, i svaka Soc. Republika je dobila sve zasebno, pa ih treba navoditi posebno... --HolyRomanEmperor 23:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Samo da znas, imamo semi-vandalizam na Template:Districts of Serbia. Pokusao sam popraviti, ali je wiki nesto neprirodno spora. --HolyRomanEmperor 23:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] If you wont to work for Wikipedia

Template talk:Kosovo --Hipi Zhdripi 06:25, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PANONIAN,

  • I think we should remove the former names for the Republics of Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina to the present. Those are only renamings.
  • Kosovo is the official name used by the UN. I think that that short name should be used instead.
  • Isn't Brcko according to the peace treaty a part of the Serbian Republic, but disputed since 2000?
  • The reason why I removed the autocratic Montenegro Italian puppet-state is that I want to name strictly Serb Lands, and only where that's consitutional. No matter that Serbs form the majority of a Town in Africa, they're not official there. I wish only to point out the communities where Serbs are officialized. I think that between 1918 and 1992, Montenegro shouldn't be mentioned. Up to 1992, Montenegro was the state of Montenegrins and its language Serbo-Croatian. In 1992, the official language became Serbian and a large portion of the population surged from Montenegrin to Serbian nationality, while others openly stated that they consider it nationality, and not ethnicity.
  • OK, verujem ti za 1992, samo to se ne uklapa sa Milosevicevim Socijalizmom.
  • Ono Area/Region je sukob. Tip uredjenja Bosanske Krajine, koja je bila Regija, je razlicit od tri Oblasti. U Hrvatskoj, Kninska Krajina je isto bila drukcija poptuno od Krajine, Zapadne Slavonije i Istocne Slavonije, Baranje i Zapadnog Srema. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:21, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Ne razumem sto si preimenovao Srem-Baranja Area. UN su to zvale protektorat Istocne Slavonije, Baranje i Zapadnoga Srijema; srpske lokalne vlasti su koristile naziv Republika..., i to zvanicno, iako se tako nije na to moglo gledati (a i bila je republika po svakom pogledu)
  • Stavicu 'NPOV-section' tag na srednjovekovne drzave. Svaka godina je pogresna, a i mnogo ima rupa. Mislim da ces se sloziti. Trebalo bi da to ostavimo tu dok ne nadjemo vremena da popravimo. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geo-stubs from Kosovo

Hi - i see youve been changing the tags on a lot of Kosovo geogrophy stubs from {{Serbia-geo-stub}} to {{geo-stub}}. Tho i can understand you not wanting {{serbia-geo-stub}} on them, {{geo-stub}} is only used now as a temporary holding template until things are sorted further. could i please ask you to use {{SerbiaMontenegro-geo-stub}} which is for all the territories internationally regarded as being part of serbia and Montenegro? I realise Kosovos situation is unusual with it being basically a UN protectorate but for Wp purposes its officially regarded as part of SM (the Cat:Kosovo is part of Cat:Subdivisions of Serbia and Montenegro for instance). it will also make it easier for us to keep track of how many articles there are and it will make it easier for editors to find the articles. hopefully the future status of the whole region will soon become clearer and we can make stub types to suit all the nations in the former Yugoslav regions but until then were holding off on creating seperate templates for fear of having some more POV ones like srpska-stub and kosova-stub appearing. thanks. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 13:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Aha, Panoniane, sada sam vidio moj istorijski atlas (i raspitao se), Sovijalisticka je izbaceno iz Vojvodine i Kosmeta 1989. godine, kada je Sloba...
  • Dobro, spomeni Crnu Goru, ali gledaj. Ako ces pomenuti zemlju, u kojoj nije uspio da se stvori Crnogorski jezik, pa je prihvacen Hrvatski jezik, zemlju koja tvrdi da je njen narod arijevski narod hrvatskog porekla i da je 1,000 godine bio mucen od strane Srba; ne zaboravi da su 1941 godine izvrsene "cistke" kojima su pobijeni svi Cetnici i njihove porodice; ne znam zasot onda ne bi stavio i NDH. A Crna Gora ti je nestala 1943 zajedno sa Italijom, tada Nemci stvaraju "sektor" na teritoriji Crne Gore i drugde.

After the Miloseviq putch the Kosovo parliament (it was the konflikt with Azem Vllasi) he occupetit a parlament (Kosovo) with force. After thayt Kosovo stopt existing in SFR Yougoslawia (oficel acceptit for UN), and Kosovo it was nothin more or lase the histori in Sebia. Becose thet the Milosheviq has makit that with forc (putch) the hase callit the UN for help. This is not importen hier but, in Serbian after this time Milosevic has maket a teritoriali administretit reforms and maket the districkts thet you are presenting hier in Wikipedia. Thet is till now in Serbia and Vojodina becose the parliament of Belrad and Novi Sad acceptit the reform and Kosovos parliament hase callit rev. in UN. That was the Kosovo War. This rev. is acceptei from Rusia, England, USA, China ect. withother words UN. UNMIK is playinm the rol of Kosovos parliament and they garand thet nobody cann make the chanches in kosovo only the Kosovos parliamnet and the Court Law of Kosovo wich is working with the Law befor the Milosevic has maked the putsch. Evry thig wat the Prishtinas parliament is saying and is accepit from the UNMIK must be acceptet from parlament in Serbia in anether keyses Serbia is going to lose ewerithing in Kosovo . see Ramboui agreement the UN accept the kosovars the referendum for they independent accordin to the UN (also UNMIK). UNMIK is wayting wat is hapen in Wien.


Im sorry about my english, but if I dont know to writte in english so gut I can read (anderstande und serban lang.). The sebians user are train to present Kosovo as administretied from Serbia. They dont have a clear argument that Kosovo is part of Serbia. They inteprete tha UN documetations. But a clear documentnt from the UN i wich is written that "Kosovo is a part of Serbia" they dont have. I ather sayd I have presentit the dokumentacion from the UN in wich is wroting " Kosovo is Provinc in Balkan". The user (now with user name) Asterion and mamy more names is playen the dirt game only to block, rev. and souch of thing in the articls wats has to do with Kosovo. If he don stop with his works i am a fried thet is not gut for Wikipedia, because the albanians users (they can start the same game) are preparing to make the same game with serbiens pagese.

The fact from UN are:

Kosovo (the mining of this wort) is a provinc in SFR of Yugoslavia and the UNMIK is ther accoeding to Res. 1244 and Rambuie meeting. The UNMIK is goin to be ther till the futer statuse of kosovo.

Up hier

Res 1244 the repsenters of Kosova are UNMIK acordin to Rambuie: the Kosovars have the right to Referendum (the have declaredit Kosovo is indenpendent)

after that:

The name of state SFR of Yugoslavia was chanched to Serbia and Montenegro.

Key point: Un is the garant of the integrety state borders for the members of the bound. (Montenegro it was a fried without this paragraf to go in bount with serbia, they have acceptit that till they folk of Montenegro dised with refrendum)

Un is the garant or the referendu in Kosovo the referndum it was maket according to Rabuie agrement wich is imlemntit in the Rez. 1244.

Becose of the key point if we present Kosovo as part of Serbia we are maken a futer status or the status in the SFR Yougoslavia, of kosovo as a provin of the Serbia or SR of Serbia. But now in year 2006 Kosovo is Non Statute Area. The UNMIK is goin to be ther till the futer statuse of kosovo.sommer, 2006 the kosovo dont have the statuse, they are talking about that in Wien an the flag unter wich kosovo is dieling with the ouher states is UN flag.

I Holpe that you are anderstending that hier is not the quesen of the nationalismus but the representing the Wikipedian user the real situation, with teks, maps, kategory stubs and the templers.

All I have don till now in Wikipedia this person has destroid.


I am see that someny serbs and albaniens user they dont know nothing about the histori of the Kosovo (I know the histori after the year 1981, Kosovos demonstration and the Jugosllav army intervention in Kosovo), or the districtes, citys or samthing alls. All that they know is Ksoovo is Serbia, and Kosova Republik--Hipi Zhdripi 18:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nastavak

  • Da, republika je bila koristena kao naziv, 90%, iako nije zvanicno. Sigurno nismo govori Sremsko-baranjska oblast, vec Istocna Slavonija, Baranja i Zapadni Srijem.
  • Pa, gledaj, pise da je postojala neka Srbija u 9 veku. Sta je to? Onda pise Duklja da je postojala u 9 i 11-12 veku, dok je ona nastala u prvoj polovini 9 veka, kratko nestajala za vreme Bugarskih i Makedonskih osvajanja u 9 i 10 veku i nestala u 13 veku (a ne 14), kada su Nemanjici zaboravili na krunu i zamenili ime Zetom u potpunosti. Travunija? Isti slucaj, od prve polovine 7 veka pa do 11 veka kada je utopljena u Duklju. Kao Trebinje se javila kao udeona knezevina u srpskoj drzavi Nemanjica, ali ne izdvojena u potpunosti. Zahumlje? Postojalo takodje od prve polovine 7 veka pa osvajano od strane Hrvata u 10 veku, kratko nestalo nakon toga da bi bilo vraceno i opstalo sve do pada u ruke Turaka 1482. Paganija? Isto postojala od prve polovine 7 veka sve do prikljucenja s Hrvatskom 1050, pa ju je onda utopilo Zahumlje ubrzo nakon toga. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
HolyRomanEmperor, you are going to fide out if you dont thin like serb, but like a Wikipedian. Becose of that I like Wikipedia, hier you can finde the true from the peopel not the true from "bisness peopel" historians. Wacke up, finde out in wich time the peopel ther have strartit to say Serbia. Fide out and select dont put every think in one name "Serbia". Im no saying that ther war albaners but my self I am train to finde the true historie. --Hipi Zhdripi 18:46, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Bilo bi i lepo da pise 927-960 umesto 10 vek kod Caslavove drzave (koja se zvala Knezevstvo Srbija), no to nije problem. Problem je sto pise da je Raska postojala u 11-12 veku i drzava Nemanjica u 12-14 veku. Raska je nastala u prvoj polovini 7 veka, i od sredine 9 veka nije Zupanija, vec Velika Zupanija. Pala je pod Bugare krajem 9 i pocetkom 10 veka, ali oni su je samo na kratko i pred kraj ukinuli. Obnovljena je pocetkom 11 veka, nakom sto je prosla kroz kratkotrajnu Makedonsku okupaciju kao Zupanija, i ponovo Velika Zupanija od 12 veka. 1168, Stefan Nemanja naziva drzavu Srpska Zemlja, ali tu je Raska samo jedan deo. Raska inace ostaje sve do vremena prelaza iz Kraljevine u carstvo, kada se kao Prusija u Nemackoj gubi. Srpska Zemlja, s druge strane, je postojala do 1217, kada se zemlja zove Kraljevina Srba, a Srpsko carstvo od 1345. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo

See: Talk:Serbia --Hipi Zhdripi 19:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

Ja koristim DAI, udzbenike iz Istorije, Srpske Dinastije Radosa Ljusica i jos neke izvore. Znas i sam da su Srbi pod nepoznatim arhontom dosli u prvoj polovini 7 veka. Mislim, ne znam kako Iraklije moze beleziti da je Srbima dao tih 5 zemalja, no one se pojavljuju 200 godina nakon njeogve smrti? Pa da, naravno da se ne nalaze na mapama, kada su bile sastavni deo Vizantije. U 9 veku su drzave pod na primer Petrom Gojnikovicem bile fakticki nezavisne, samo su srpske zemlje visile izmedju vecih, mocnijih drzava: Hrvatske, Bugarske i Vizantije.

A to o NDH-u, pa vidi, teritorijalno, Srbi su bili najveci narod (mislim nesto oko 50%), jer su drzali vecinu u najvise opcina. :) K'o sada u Bosni i Hercegovini. A brojno ih je bilo u postotcima nesto izmedju onih postotaka sto ih ima u CG i BiH. No, necemo dodati NDH, zar ne?

Znam da su konstitutivni narod Makedonije, ali ipak mislim da je besmisleno staviti nju u clanak. Pogledaj; ako cemo tako, onda i Hrvatsku treba staviti tu, jer se Srbi nalaze u ustavu. No, tu se onda ne uklapa cinjenica da su 1990 prakticno izbacili Srbe iz konstitutivnih naroda i sveli ih na manjinu. No, ti odluci. Ili stavi Makedoniju i Hrvatsku; ili nijednu. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:46, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

'bro; ali zar se ne odnosi Crnogorac i na Hrvata, Bosnjaka, Albanca i Muslimana koji zivi u Crnoj Gori? A, pogledaj Talk:Lika, User:Elephantus negira da je bilo ikakvog smanjivanja statusa Srba s nacije na manjinu. A opet, Srbi se nalaze u ustavu, dok se npr. u ustavu SAD uopste ne pominju :) (sala mala). --HolyRomanEmperor 23:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Banovine

Pregledao sam galerije mapa koje si uradio i zaista su dobre. Bio bih ti veoma zahvalan ukoliko bi u skorije vreme mogao da napravis mapu Kraljevine Jugoslavije sa banovinama. :) Alexzr88 16:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Projekt Dardania

You are wilkommen in Wikipedia:WikiProject Dardania--Hipi Zhdripi 20:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I dont know, but if you are you want to know wat is going to hapen with kosovo it must bee samthing like this: http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/?change_lang=en and if the Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo is going to have a Federadion then the name of this Federation is going to be samthing els. But, till Kosovo is (de juro, in paper) a part of the FSR of Yogosllavia and together with RS of Serbia and ASP of Vojvodian it mus be so presentit or Serbia is goin to be presantet als Serbia unter the serbian flag and Kosova with UN-flag.

  1. We cann use the Law of Yougoslawia (RS Serbia=Serbia + SAP Kosovo + SAP Vojvodian; all three unter the RS of Serbia flag)
  2. We cann use the Law of UN (Rep. of Serbia unter serban flag - Kosovo unter the UN flag)

This is the real. If you dont acept this than you are doing that you are neutral but that is onyl a game. I holpe that you are workin for Wikipedia and not for the Serbian Govermant (politicans) propaganda. I am albaner but, hier I am working for Wikipedia to presante the region of Dardania als Ilirian kindom, province of Dardania unter the Romen Empir, provice Dardania als subdivesion of Moesia, Rashka and Zeta als teritoris with the independen church from Bisaninum, Shtefan Dushans Empire, The Duks from this region (unter the church of Bisantinum or Servia), Kosovo Vilajet unter the Otomans, Kosovo unter the Serbian state, Kosovo under the Albanian (fashist) state, Kosovo unter the Yogoslavien and at last Kosovo unter the UN. I have taket Kosovo becos is the centrum of the Dardania and the peopel ther file that. They dont wont to mergge with Albania, Serbia or any state in this time. If they make the bound with any state, thay are going to get the garatie from Church in Rom and Constatinopel and from UN.--Hipi Zhdripi 01:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

you have a answer see: Talk:Serbia#Correctly use of names and definitions. Not it!! The garantie from UN and the Church in Rom they have but the Servian Church is maken the problem at the Constatinopel Church.--Hipi Zhdripi 02:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wise choice

A wise choice. It should save you many headaches indeed! Asterion 16:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vlachs are romanians

Vlachs are romanians despite the fact that foreign people called them like that. --Chisinau 17:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serbia, Montenegro

You could take a look at Serbia, a map of the state is lacking on the article. And when you view Montenegro, it is shown as a country of the world (rather than a part of the Union). --HolyRomanEmperor 19:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Uhh, PANONIAN, the Serbia article has no map whatsoever. :)
Additionally, it is a simple POV-push to place it that they look like independent (like on Montenegro), since no territorial faction on wiki uses it. This particulary mapping system's designed specifically, and strictly for Countries of the World. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:37, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Appeal of the Year

Mole se građani Smedereva da ne kradu džakove sa peskom sa nasipa.

We appeal the citizens of Smederevo, do not steal the sandbags from the dams. (There is a hundred years flood on the Danube in Serbia). Bendeguz 21:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was viewing the version vandalized by Hipi Zhdripi. OK; I'll do it as soon as I get time. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] COTW Project

You voted for Lipovans, this week's Collaboration of the week. Please come and help it become a featured-standard article. -Scottwiki 04:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] you know not kosovo you fuck

Kosovo en great land. All kosovo? Albanians - noi serbs. en you find kosovo non-albanin? shquiptar is good, serb is bad; you stupid moronic fuckl must know all serbs must die. if you serb then stay away en kosovo or i call nato to kill yur paronts. Dou yu got? --Hipi Zhdripi

Seriously, all this stuff is so unintentionally hilarious. It should be archived somewhere for posterity... :D estavisti 13:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I know someone who was banned for that. Do you have any info on Estonia? I have a friend who is Estonian and he claims there are only around fifteen hundred left. I understand that in Eastern Europe Estonians are known for their abilitys as spies. Is this the case?(username witheld as user is currently banned)

Well, you can read the Estonia article, and you will find there what you want to know. I do not know how your friend define what is one Estonian, but it is usually somebody who declare himself as Estonian in census and there is a lot of those who declare themselves like that. Also, I live in Central Europe, not in eastern one, so I really do not know are Estonians known for their abilitys as spies. You should ask somebody else about that. :) PANONIAN (talk) 23:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Palestine election map

Thanks for the excellent work on maps Panonian. I was looking at the Palestine election map you produced, from NYT sources as I saw, and wondering why there are any light green areas in Gaza. The whole of the Gaza Strip is under Palestinian administration. Can you update your map to reflect this? Thanks. Joffan 21:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Vrsac.png

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[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Kovin.jpg

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[edit] Sorry

I am sorry, PANONIAN. I appreciate your mediation attempt in the Kosovo article. Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. At this moment, after being subjected to several wiki-harrassment, wikistalking, ad-hominem attacks and vandalism in my own userpage, I am afraid that my wikistress is up the roof. I will be on holiday for the next few days and hopefully will be able to re-take the subject afresh. As far as I see it now, Ilir pz's attitude seems to be changing. He seems to be concentrating now in requesting citations, which is certainly a great improvement, but all this comes to nothing when dealing with Dardanv, as he seems more interested in symbols than in really expanding or enhancing the article. There is a lot work to do in that article. Most of the original text was written by Hipi Zhdripi a while ago and the English used is simply dreadful. I wish you good luck and hope you will help out with it, hopefully to take it to the same standard as Serbia article is at this moment. Kind regards, --Asterion 13:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

That line of yours is kind of annoying can you delete it when you post? --Andrei George 16:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I mean this:"---" You make a lot of lines below your sig. Sorry to ask you this. Thank you Panonian.

--Andrei George 16:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I figured it out...but they are still annoying :)

--Andrei George 16:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

At risk of sounding like De Niro, Andrei, "You talkin' to me? --Asterion talk to me 20:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

No, he was talking to me. :) PANONIAN (talk) 21:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

LOL! --Asterion talk to me 21:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions and Đorđe Branković

Hi PANNONIAN. I had altered Đorđe to Đurađ for consistency. While I do not insist on this point, the name is really the same, and Đorđe seems to be the preferred modern form (e.g., Karađorđe), while Đurađ is more archaic and usually used for the Serbian despots of the Branković dynasty. Any distinction between the two caused by using the two different froms would be arbitrary. For example, in Miklosić one finds a charter (CDLXII, dated November 3 1494), in which both grandfather and grandson are named "Gjeōrgïe", while elsewhere the grandfather is "Gjurg" (CCCLI, fated September 17 1445), and the grandson similarly "Gjur" (CDXLII, dated October 1 1476). The sources are in Fr. Miklosich, Monumenta Serbica spectantia historiam Serbiae Bosniae Ragusii, Vienna, 1858 (reprinted Graz, 1964). Obviously the old Slavonic usage was not standardized and the names are the same. Since Đurađ was already used for the first Branković ruler of that name, I altered the Đorđe Branković on the Vojvodina page accordingly to Đurađ Branković (technically Đurađ II Branković would be even better). Do you object? Thanks, Imladjov 19:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odgovor

Iako nevolim da raspravljam na ovoj Wikipediji na drugom jeziku osim na engleskom ipak u ovom slucaju je ocigledno da se radi o privatnoj raspravi koja nema veze ni sa jednom temom ovdje.

Mozes li da provjeris koliko sam ja to puta komentarisao Srbe? Mislim da ces vidjeti da u 95% mojih odgovora odgovarao sam pojedincima na konstatacije ili o institucijama za koje znam da su odgovorne za razne nevolje koje su nas stigle zadnjih 15 godina. Gotovo nikad ne pominjem Srbe kao grupu iz jednostavnog razloga sto nevjerujem u kolektivnu krivicu ali vjerujem u odgovornost institucija ali i zbog toga sto je izuzetno tesko objasnjavati bilo koju grupu ljudi. Ispravno jeste da mene nije protjerao narod ali me je protjerala institucija koja se dala u sluzbu tog naroda.

Neodbijam cinjenicu da su I Srbi puno propatili u proslom ratu ali krivicu u tome trebaju traziti u istim institucijama koje su istjerali I mene. Postoji velika razlika izmedju politike koju je vodila RS I koju je imala vlada BiH. RS je imala jasnu taktiku odvajanja Srpskog naroda od ostalih naroda BiH koju je uspjesno sprovela do 1995 godine. Postoji puno dokaza o tome I o tome da su vlasti RS sami ohrabrivali relokaciju Srpskog stanovnistva u teritorije pod kontrolom RS. Svakako da je bilo I izuzetnih slucajeva ali se oni nemogu uklopiti u politiku vlade BiH. Ta politika barem do 1994 godine je bilo odrzavanje multinacionalnost I multikulturalnost BiH. Samo za primjer za vrijeme rata 1994 godine u BiH parlamentu su I dalje funkcionisali predstavnici srpskog naroda a ambassador BiH u Francuskoj je bio Srbin. Jedan od vrhovni generala Armije BiH je bio Jovan Divjak. Istina jeste da je doslo do raskola ali sigurno ne voljom BiH vec voljom SDS-a, RS I radikalnih institucija iz Srbije.

Bosnjaci mogu nazvati RS kako god zele, da je genocidna tvorevina, entitet baziran na ratnom zlocinu ali pored svega toga RS je najvise tamnica Srpskog naroda u BiH. Srbi u RS-u danas nemaju nista vise nego sto su imali I prije rata u BiH niti bi sta izgubili da se RS sutra ukine. Cak sta vise RS sluzi za sakrivanje ratnih zlocinaca I odrzavanje sumornog osjecaja raskola koji drzi ljude u psihozi proslog rata I vjerovanja da je nemoguce zivjeti sa drugim narodima. Jedina stvar sto zapravo sprijecava ukidanje RS-a je kako objasniti ljudima koji su dali tolike zrtve da je sve to bilo za suludi cilj u koji su ih vodili dva psihopata. To ko ce vladati nad kim je cista nebuloza I zastrasivanje javnosti. Kao da se nemoze naci dogovor o ravnopravnoj podjeli vlasti ili u najboljem slucaju I ne po nacionalnoj osnovi.

Sto se tice bosnjackih politicara, dajes im previse kredibiliteta. Ja licno nisam niti imam namjeru da glasam za njih niti ih uglavnom podrzavam. To sto se moja misljenja ponekad poklapaju sa njihovim misljenjima samo govori da su ti politicari informisani o stanju I razmisljanju naroda koji navodno predstavljaju.

Sad za kraj. U moju kucu je usao “Srbin” iz Banja Luke, sa puskom I tri policajca RS-a, napravio popis nase imovine I zaprijetio da sve bude na svom mjestu kad budemo izlazili. Iskreno receno mi smo I dobro prosli. U velikom broju slucajeva ljudi kao ja nisu izvukli zivu glavu I bili su ubijeni na licu mjesta. Najgora stvar sto mozes uciniti u zivotu je da se zajebavas sa tudjim sudbinama.

Pitam te da tebi na taj nacin neko dodje na vrata I uzme ti sve sto si imao I iz korijena ti izmjeni zivot pa ti cak mozda I ubije nekog iz familije da li bi ti na kraju cutao. Da li ja trebam da cutim da neuznemiravam one koji sjede na mom i da im nedaj boze nebih pobudio budnju savjest. Netrazim ja nikakvo historijsko pravo. Ja trazim ovu sadasnju pravdu prije nego moji unuci se pocnu slijepo svetiti za mene nad unucima onih sto sjede na mom. --Dado 02:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Make the projekt for Kosovo with Ilir

Pleace trai to make a project with Ilir to presant the both sei of Kosovo. I m going to trai to be neutral and support you two. Hipi

What project? Ilir pz 17:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

--Andrei George 14:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] infobox

The infoboxes you have put in Prizren wikipage is a bit wrong. The registration plates of Prizren, as the rest of Kosova are with "KS" only, not as they used to be. Additionally, not sure whether "coat of arms" is what Kosovo cities have. They have their flags and seals, instead. Ilir pz 17:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

seems good now. Thanks.Ilir pz 22:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
You decide whom to believe :). But I will check once again about the coat of arms or seal issue. Though, I am pretty sure they have the seal and the flag. Ilir pz 19:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Could you help me incorporate a field in the infobox of Prizren? I wanted to add "Altitude 400m above sea level" but the code I add seems to not work out. Thanks in advance, Ilir pz 17:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wat do you think about this "form"

Beacose the citys dont have a flage. See this perhaps it wuld help you [2]. Dont wory I am nog going to insist in fotos wich are for the serbs "alergy"--Zhdripi Hipi 03:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Hi, you must provide a source for Image:Pannonian plain01.jpg; not only is "fair use" deprecated, but it does not relieve you of the requirement to specify the source of the image. If you do not supply the source, not only will the image be deleted, but I will block from further editing. Stan 02:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to be harsh, I see you've been doing your share of cleaning up after others' uploads. (I wish more people would use commons, it's better organized for image handling.) We do need the source of this map tho. Stan 00:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stanovnistvo NS

Mtlcrue 14:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Mtlcrue Ok za one podatke o stanovnistvu NS ,ali mi nije nikako jasno kako oficijalni sajt Novog Sada moze da ima pogresne podatke.A sto se tice Futoga i Veternika ,pise "The settlements with recognized town/city status are: Novi Sad, Petrovaradin, Sremska Kamenica and Futog."! Zar to ne znaci da i Futog ,a samim tim i Veternik spada u urbani rejon Novog Sada!!?Da ,i sto ste tice onih slika ,to je sa nekog CD-a "Moj Novi Sad" ,koji sam dobio jos ranije.Ne znam kako tu da napisem copyright status.

[edit] Banat Bulgarians

Hi! Sorry about that in Belo Blato, I really didn't notice the way you changed it. Anyway, I've been looking through some PDF issues of the Banat Bulgarian newspaper and, been lately covering the topic on Wikipedia, saw there was (and possibly still is) a Banat Bulgarian community also in Jaša Tomić (Modroš). Where do you get that neat Vojvodina census data and could you look that settlement up there, if it is listed/possible? Thanks in advance! Also, is there any another information on the topic that's available to you? → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → 15:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info on Modoš. Could you also look up Đurđevo for Banat Bulgarians? Also, a source I found ([3]) mentions Starilec and Kanak in addition, do you know if these still exist, whether they still have these names and if they have some Banat Bulgarian population left?
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[edit] Kosovo stub

Beacose the fact that Kosovo befor the kosovo war, it was the legitim part of Yougoslavia and together with Serbia teritory and the Vojvodina and now the status of Kosovo is not disatidet, the Kosovo geographicel articels must be putit untder the Kosovo-stub.

  1. Colors of the stub.

At the firs time I have maked I was thinking that the albanians ont they color and serbians they. beose of that is more neutral that the color to present the UN color.

  1. Flag

I think wedont need that is beter only the map of Kosovo in UN color.

Pleace if you are agree or diesesgree with the Kosovo stub let me know in Hipis page discussion way?. I need your opinion about this beacause you are working hard in this way and you are traingt the best. -- Hipi Zhdripi

I think we should add some tags and get rid of some of the crap.

Many of us used to think of you guys as simply D.P.s. I, on the other hand, had the experience of having wound up with neighborsw who were some strain of Serbo/Slavic. They turned out to be just like dagos.

To make a stabile soulution wich is going to be acceptyt from oth seids. I have think mor then one month about thate. At first (if you think that Im wrong just tell my)

  1. The kosovars have a "Alegie" agains the name "Serbia" when is putit in article Kosovo that is not meaning that they dont accept the serbs in Kosovo, but is only how I sayed alegie agains the state "Serbia"
  2. The serbs in Serbia have a "Alegie" agains the term "indipendent" they dont know way, they was never in Kosovo, but is so .

Now we most finde a soulution till the statut is not maket. hu

For thet I know that with a littel explenise we can make that the extremist view from the Kosovars to be a way from Kosovo article. We have to put the Kosovo articles under the Federal Republic of Yougoslavia.

For the view of extremist serbs I dont know is better to put the Serbia under the FR Yugoslavia or Serbia and Montenegro. For that you have two choise: Serbia, Motonegro to be putit seperet to RFY or together under the name "Serbia and Montengo".

RSFY or Ex Yugoslavia
RS Serbia
Serbia
Vojvodina
Kosovo
Montenegro
RFY
Serbia
Vojvodina
Montenegro
Kosovo
RFY
Serbia and Montenegro
Kosovo

We can talk 1000 years, but after the Milosevic destroidt the Parliament in Prishtina he have destroid the old Republic called RS Serbia and created a new Repbulic called Republic Serbia. This new Republic it was newer acceptyt from UN. With logic you can see that if they have acceptyt this new Republic they diden have righ to put they forces there. I know that many peopel are saying that was not legitimetet, but the peopel in UN they know wat they do. They haved tha fackt that a element of old Republic hase called for help. This was right to calle for help it was maked for the secend Word War in time in witch the Komunist party of Albania and Yugoslavia has maked agreemend that Kosovo is going to be a part of the Serbian Federation. This agreemend it was destroid after the Milosevic has destroid the parliament in Prishtina. Is so simpel. They are going to do the same think now with the Kosovars, they are goint to make that the Kosovars must respect the right of the serbs in Kosovo. They are going to let that for some years and waching wat is hapend. Each time wen the Serbian Govermen is going to make a troubel the UN is going to help the Kosovars. If the Serbian Goverment is not going to stop they are going to lose more territory in South (Sadjak, Toplica). All this terytory was gived to the Serbian Goverment from main powers. You can say that the Serbian army has betet the Otomans, but think a lite, they have taket a part of Kroacia for same time but they loset that, and the albanians has maked wars agains the Otomans in Turky, Egypten, Iraq, and in all Mediteran area.

Is not that I am taken a kosovars side but:

The rez. 1244 it was maked during this name RSFY (You and me, we know that this rez is saying everthing and nothing) evrything for game is over and nothing lets player a next level. Is crayse but is so.

The rez. for Chancen the name, this was propozit from UN beacose they diden wontit that this two states to be under this name RFY and so they have maket that this game go on in next level.

Also the main powers are playen a game and we must present this game hier in Wikipedia. If we put our elements we are going to be a part of this game. I dont wont to be a part of this game. But I wont to present this game (for the peopel tomorow how it twas played and not how I have played) . Dont wori souch games they have maked more times, is no the first time. But I think that the Balkaners are going to lern somthing in the future. Please dont let to be played souch games here in wiki. The

[edit] Demographics and districts

Hi Panonian. Don't you think that Demographics of Kosovo data are a bit too biased, and mainly sourced from Serbian side? I think they need re-ordering, as they give a very biased picture. I would appreicate if you help. Additionally, I think districts (including the district of Kosovo) are a part of recent past of Kosovo. For that matter, on top of each of the pages of "districts" which are now not districts but municipality divisions of Kosovo, you should include a "This division lasted from this date to this date, and is not currently the case". Do you agree? ~Especially "district of Kosovo" misleads a reader. He/she might think Kosovo is a district, just like that. Ilir pz 08:58, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Podgorica

Ako je city_name=Podgorica<br>Подгорица, onda je link koji pokazuje na [[Flag of {{{city_name}}}]] "rasturen"; to je sad slučaj na svim crnogorskim gradovima. Koristim Firefox, ali ne vjerujem da je problem u browseru, pogledaj Nikšić. Nažalost, nemam trenutno vremena da se pozabavim time, rješavam Bosnian war. Duja

Evo, sredicu template i Podgoricu, a ti sredi ostale. Duja 00:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Koso, Georgia

The only problem is that in that part of the earth they dont have UN. But we must finde the compromise to finde the solution for this argument too. Make with Ilir in the discussion side a work place for each articel and after they are finisht you two are going to present at the articel side. If Holy and Manjolo or extremist mix they nois ther, then you two must make a project West Balkan and nobody can destroyed your work. Ignor they and me too if you think that a have in that poit a extremis poit of view. Is hard to be neutral, wenn I read souch PALLAVRA from sombady who dont have nothing to do with realty.

At first you two must re-construt the Kosovo-geo-stub. I dont know here in en:Wiki how and who is respocibel for this. Please finde out wher is and start to make the geo-stubs

After that we need a new templare abot the 30 komuna.

After that you two must corporet with the peopel wich are resposebel about the Categorys and select they.

The cultur articel wich belong to the serbians kosovars, please lete under the direct category of Serbia. That is Respect for the church, not for the nationalist. During this time Im going to make the multicipaty map from year 2006--Zhdripi Hipi 03:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputit terrytoris

Kosovo is disputied territory Ok. Then we are goin to present as desputet. See this and tale my wat is wrong here. Image:000 Serbia dhe Mali i Zi.PNG--Zhdripi Hipi 03:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for Choosing Belgrade

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This week Belgrade was selected to be improved to featured article status.
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[edit] Okruzi

Pazi ovako:

  • Okruzi Srbije su okruzi Srbije a ne okruzi pokrajina Srbije. Stoga pokrajine ne mogu da odlucuju o njihovom statusu.
  • Okruzi i opstine Srbije na Kosovu i dalje postoje u zakonskom smislu. Njihov spisak se nalazi u odgovarajucem zakonu, i nisu brisane odatle.
  • Okruzi i opstine Srbije na Kosovu i dalje postoje i u faktickom smislu. Njihove administracije su izmestene van Kosova ali i dalje funkcionisu. U njima stanovnici Kosova vade licne karte, registruju kola, vade krstenice, regulisu penzije... Trebalo bi jednom da nadjemo spisak sta je izmesteno gde.

pa nemoj molim te da nasedas albanskim izmisljotinama i pises neke istorijske clanke :) Nikola 07:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Panonian did you see the massive reverts by the user above? he is instructing you not to be neutral, ay? :))))). Hope you get the previous version back, which was rather neutral. Ilir pz 09:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Ti se brate mnogo cudno ponasas kad se povede pitanje Kosova.

Svako mrzi kad neko unistava njegov rad, ali ono sto si ti pisao (was a district in Kosovo between 1990 and 1999. It was located in the southern part of Kosova) je potpuno netacno i jednostavno se moralo potpuno ukloniti. Da sam imao vise vremena napisao bih i ja nesto kompromisno ali nisam.

Sto se tice tvojih argumenata, nisu tacni:

Drugo, mislim da okruzi Srbije na Kosovu više ne postoje ni u zakonskom ni u faktičkom smislu.

Okruzi Srbije, ili bilo koje druge drzave, ne postoje ni u jednom drugom nego u zakonskom smislu (ili ako bas hoces, fakticki postoje ako zakonski postoje, i obrnuto). Ako si ikada putovao igde, a verujem da jesi, mogao si primetiti da izmedju okruga, opstina, itd, ne postoje nikakvi betonski zidovi koji oznacavaju njihove granice ili nesto slicno, vec su one odredjene zakonima. To sto se zakoni ne postuju je druga prica, ali to ne znaci da oni ne postoje.

Pošto je Srbija prihvatila upravu UN na Kosovu, prihvatila je i civilnu UN administraciju, prema tome jedino okruzi koje je uspostavila UN administracija se mogu smatrati zakonskim. Nije mi jasno po kom zakonu ovi okruzi još postoje, ako je Srbija prihvatila civilnu upravu UN na Kosovu?. Prema tome, ako u nekom zakonu i piše da ovi okruzi postoje, to se onda kosi sa drugim zakonom kojim je Srbija prihvatila civilnu upravu UN.

Alal ti cufte. Srbija (odnosno Jugoslavija ali nebitno) jeste prihvatila upravu UN na Kosovu, ali uprava UN na kosovu nema ovlascenja da menja okruge Srbije (da ponovim, u pitanju nisu okruzi Kosova vec okruzi Srbije koji se nalaze na teritoriji Kosova). Kada je UNMIK izmenio okruge, on je iskoracio izvan svojih ovlascenja pa je jasno da Srbija to ne mora (i nije) prihvatila.

Sledeće, ako administracija ovih okruga i dalje funkcioniše izvan Kosova, to ne znači da oni postoje.

A ovo ti je najbolje. Okruzna administracija funkcionise ali okrug ne postoji? Pa sta onda administrise ta administracija, ako ne okrug?

Mislim da članke ne treba menjati u tom smislu, ali da treba u njih dodati da prema jednom gledištu ti okruzi još uvek zakonski postoje (Naravno ovde se radi o dva suprotna gledišta države Srbije, jer prema drugom gledištu države Srbije prema kom je Srbija prihvatila administraciju UN, ti okruzi ne bi trebali da postoje).

Na Vikipediji ne smes da iznosis svoje licne stavove. Prema svemu sto ja znam, postoji jedna jedina osoba koja misli da ti okruzi ne postoje, a to si ti. Nikola 06:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usluga

Zamolio bih te da glasas "Strong Keep" na ovo stranci: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Pilot_of_invisible_F-117-a%28song%29 ,posto su predlozili ovaj clanak za brisanje.Hvala unapredDzoni 12:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hehe

Albanski je jezik buducnosti, hehehehe. E ne se zajebavaj sad, nista specialno nisam uradio. hehhehe. 'oces li i ti da ucis malo Albanski? Mirëdita="Dobar dan":))))) Govoriti jezik komsije nije nista lose, jel? A time mozes da pokazujes jos da si tolerantan. Ilir pz 16:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Sta ima? Talk:Demographic_history_of_Kosovo#Relevancy_of_citations maybe you could help neutralize this article? Just check what sources have been cited. Amazing. Ilir pz 10:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments and suggestions. What I was hoping was that you check my remarks in the link above, and tell me if you think I am right or wrong. The relevancy of those already cited works is something I disagree with completely. Ilir pz 10:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bodjani

Thanks, I corrected my link and the title on sr-wiki. --estavisti 03:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Russia 0900.gif

Thanks for uploading Image:Russia 0900.gif. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Wikipedia:Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this: {{TemplateName}}.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me, or ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sue Anne 20:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geografija Vojvodine

Pozdrav. Vidim da se detaljno razumes u vojvodjanske stvari, pa bih da te pitam par stvari: da li znas koliko je dugačka reka Kereš (dolazi iz Mađarske kod Subotice, uliva se u Tisu ispod Kanjiže)? na stranici Geography of Vojvodina pise da su Jegrička, Jarčina i Novi Begej delovi DTD-a? Hvala unapred i pozdrav. PajaBG 20:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Znaci tako...dobro, nadam se da bar imas dobar atlas :o) Dopunicu malo stranicu za sada, a kasnije cu, ako me ne prodje zelja za brljanjem po Vikipediji, da napravim pravi clanak od toga. Pozdrav PajaBG 23:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Konkretno, ovaj clanak je zgodan za tekst sa listom i tako sam i planirao da ga doradim, ali generalno clanak koji je samo lista nije clanak nego spisak linkova (ukoliko se sam clanak ne zove Lista...necega). Ono sto ga cini clankom upravo je tekst :o) A ni te liste nisu toliko pregledne kao sto ljudi misle, narocito ako ima uvucenih i poduvucenih podlista. Ja sam napravio Rivers of Serbia pa sad popunjavam redom, a planiram da to uradim i sa jezerima, planinama i ostrvima. O tom potom. Pozdrav PajaBG 19:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Tagging Image:Map-hun17.jpg

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[edit] Administrator?

Je li ti ikad netko predložio da budeš administrator? Pitam jer stvarno mislim da je šteta što nisi. Jakiša Tomić 00:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo-geo-stub

This has repeatedly been debated at several forums around wikipedia, and the general consensus by a very large margin is to keep this deleted. Please see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 April) for just some of those arguments. Grutness...wha? 05:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would have been better to bring this up when the discussions were going on. Since that didn't happen, perhaps it would be best if you brought the problems up again at WP:WSS/P, rather than trying to argue it out with one person on their user talk page. I was only one of a fairly large number of people who voted against this stub type. In fact only one user (Hipi Zhdripi) voted in favour of its existence in most of the debates - though IIRC at Deletion review the vote was something like 10-2. Grutness...wha? 13:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Grutness, It would have been better if you brought this issue up in the Kosovo talk page where most of the editors interested in Kosovo issues gather. Ilir pz 14:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
It was brought up on pages dealing with stubs, as are all stub-related issues, and at undeletion because it was a request for undeletion and it is WP policy to discuss those things there, and at WP:SFD since that is where the deletion of stub types is discussed. There are approximately 1600 stub categories - it makes far more sense to discuss such things at one centralised point that at 3200 template an category talk pages. If you add in the talk page for articles directly relating to each stub type then you're at up to 4800 possible places - and that's assuming there's only one possible article relating to each stub category. That's why stub categories have the {{WPSS-cat}} template in them, to indicate where discussions need to take place - which is also mentioned at WP:SFD, WP:WSS, and WP:STUB, the latter of which is linked via all stub templates. To say that you were unaware of where discussions were taking place with that many indications of where it would be doesn't make much sense. As to me re-starting the discussion, I thought you were the one that wanted it back, not me. Sigh - ok, I'll do it, since it will need talking about soon anyway, given that there's a reasonable chance Montenegro will soon vote for independence. It's probably best to see what the story with that is before doing anything with the kosovo stubs though. Certainly as things stand there aren't nearly enough of them for a separate stub category anyway. For now, if there are that many problems, I'd suggest simply using {{Euro-geo-stub}} on the articles. I assume that all sides to this, erm, dioscussion can at least agree that Kosovo is in Europe? Grutness...wha? 00:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dalmatia

Hi. Some editors (Elephantus and Zmaj) keep removing Cyrilic and Italian name for Dalmazia, and the fact that Dalmatia is not a province of Croatia, but has parts in Montenegro and BH. They are also removing pictures of Kotor and Boka Kotorska, though it was always part of Dalmatia. It seems that you were involved in editing of this article, just letting you know what is going on at the moment. Maayaa 22:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I dont agree with what you say about Dalmatia - there is part of it in Bosnia/Herzegovina, and Montenegro - even current article says that. But the other point (removing even the name of dalmatia in Italian/Serbian) is even not related to that. Anyway, this article seems to be contraversial. Maayaa 23:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Should Neum be considered part of Dalmatia?--Asterion talk to me 22:17, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

I was wondering, are you Serb? C-c-c-c 03:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

а питам зато зашто се понекад више слажеш са Албанцима него са Србима. But that's good sometimes, at least they know some of us are fair:))) C-c-c-c 22:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

hë!!!!!. Something is wrong here. You accept that most of your peopel are not fair???? What the hell C-c-c-c is playen -- User:Hipi Zhdripi

Hipi, do you talk to me or to C-c-c-c? PANONIAN (talk) 23:44, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Hipi, didn't you agree you'd never come back? C-c-c-c 23:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Also Hipi, once again you're ability to communicate and understand written English is laughable. What I meant was, in completely plain English this time: "There ARE fair Serbs in this world, however Albanians disagree". Not that I claim every Serb is fair, or not fair, so please next time interpret things correctly, or get someone else to. C-c-c-c 00:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I see you're having some trouble here, by being rather neutral, Panonian. I get such comments sometimes, too. By the way I answered to some of your comments in my talk page. Looking forward to settling that down somehow. Best, Ilir pz 16:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

what about the Kosovo-geo-stub discussion? was there any change in that decision? Ilir pz 16:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Smile!

Asterion talk to me has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}} or {{subst:smile2}} to their talk pages. Happy editing!

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[edit] Ban(title)

Regarding the latest change to ban article. How am I otherwise suppose to return the text that I wrote a long time ago, by hand? That would take years to restore, any better way? Damir Mišić 17:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Kosovo

I am giving up (at least for a while). I had hopes things could change and we could end up with a decent and balanced article. But you cannot do this with people bickering over each little sentence or word, with people more interested in disrupting things to make a point than making a real contribution. Wikipedia is simply to big and there are too many other subjects I would like to carry on (or start) working on for me to waste my precious little wiki-time on Kosovo. I wish you all the best, my friend. Asterion talk to me 09:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. I am about to unwatch the whole lot altogether. I just had enough. Best wishes, Asterion talk to me 23:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki in Balkan

Sorry about the referendum, it spleet the peopel for some time down there but the show must go one. PANONIA is importen for Wiki image in Balkan to be one of the first. In this point we all must work together.--Hipi Zhdripi 16:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Mozes li napraviti mapu Crne Gore po orkuzima koja prikazuje rezultate referenduma? Recimo, da svi okruzi koji su vecinski za Uniju budu plavi, a ovi drugi crveni. Mogu ti dati spisak ako je potrebno.

A za taskbar - oprosti sto se nijesam na vrijeme pojavio (brat me je zadrzao). Reci, je si li rijesio problem u medjuvremenu? --HolyRomanEmperor 19:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Pa, sto ne bi naglasio da su preliminarni rezultati Republicke referendumske komisije? Dakle, moja obicna zamisao za sada je samo mapa po vecini (bez rezultata). Za Zajednicu su: Andrijevica, Berane, Žabljak, Kolašin, Mojkovac, Plužine, Pljevlja, Herceg-Novi i Šavnik. A za nezavisnost su ti svi ostali. Ako te tačni rezultati baš zanimaju, prati my contributions u naredna 24 h - evo sada unosim rezultate u svaki okrug. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Re: Mapa Crne Gore

Prelistaj clanke o crnogorskim opstinama i vidjet ces i sam pune rezultate. ;) (bas kao sto sam kazao). --HolyRomanEmperor 12:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link

Template:History of Vojvodina

[edit] Vojvodina

Zastava i grb Autonomne Pokrajine Vovjodine su protivustavni i nezvanicni - iako ih provincijalne vlasti koriste. Sjecas se da je nedavno trebao biti odrzan samit o tome da li se usvajaju ta provincijalna obiljezja? Odlozeno je zbog crnogorskoga referenduma. Milsim da bi trebalo izvaditi iz kutije na stranici Vojvodina, i ubaciti negdje u sredj clanka, kao vjerovarna ili moguca pokrajinska obiljezja - barem dok se ne usvoji. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Pa, mislim da je glavni problem sto nisu zvanicne - ipak to ne moze tako ici. Ajmo sada reci da su Crna Gora i Kosovo nezavisne drzave svijeta?

P. S. Pogledaj Pagania. Mnogo sam radio na njemu. Pitam se da li bi mozda (kada zavrsim clanak - ili prije) mogao napraviti samo mapu Neretljanske drzavice? --HolyRomanEmperor 16:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Pa, moja zamisao je samo tvoja mapa - ali uvecana. I na njoj bi trebalo da se vide zupanije - a to nije tesko, s obzirom da kontinentalni dio cine dvije zupanije (cije su jedne granice precizirane u clanku) a ostvrske Dalenksa. Tu bi mogli da se dodaju i nazivi za ostvrlje (Brac, Hvar, Korcula, Mljet, Vis, Kaza, Lastovo) - ali da Lastovo, Vis i Kaza budu druge boje (jer su osvojeni nakon 945 godine). Kada bi se tu i ucrtali gradovi (mislim da nije tesko ako koristis rijeke - a gradovi su savremeni) - bila bi to detaljna mapa. Problem je sto niko nikada nije (zasigurno) napravio mapu Neretvanske drzavice - pa sad ti prosudi - je li izvodivo? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Tvoja je bolja. --HolyRomanEmperor 09:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bay of Kotor

You mentioned some population censi that you didn't list - when will you? --HolyRomanEmperor 09:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think he already has. Today Boka is not the same as it was prior to 1910. Evergreen Montenegro1 04:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vote

In case you are interested: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Border history of Romania --KIDB 11:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evo

Sad radim na clanku o Vojvodini, imam bolje podatke. --estavisti 21:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Kad se procenti saberu za popis 1910 (Demographic history of Vojvodina), dobije se 100.1%. Ako bi mogao da proveris te podatke koje imas, bilo bi dobro. :) --estavisti 22:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

U kom browseru imas taj problem? Meni je kako treba i u IE-u i u Firefox-u. --estavisti 22:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Evo sad sam pogledao u Operi (8.54) i ni tu nema problema. Ne znam o cemu se radi, mozda mozes dati screen? Btw, imas li neki mesendzer, da ne moramo ovako da komuniciramo? --estavisti 23:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Добро, само нећу завршити табеле вечерас. Ми овде у Лондону смо сат времена испред вас у Србији па идем у кревет. :) --estavisti 23:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zdravo

Ne bih zelio ispasti dosadan (posto sam mnogo zahtjevao od tebe u poslijednje vrijeme), no, mislim da trebamo da imamo i jedan nacrt po Popu Dukljaninu - kada vec imamo i po caru Porfirogenitu. Evo karte Dukljaninova hrvatsko-srbijanskog teritorija. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Mapa

Pa, mislio sam samo da imamo kartu uz clanak Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja. Ne znam sta bi tu bilo pro-srpski - crtati sliku uz odgovarajuci clanak? Cudi me tvoj strah od hrvatske reakcije - kada je LPD kljucno orudje hrvatske tacke gledista na rani srednji vijek - a ne srpske. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Pa - protivili bi se - ali samo ako tu mapu stavimo negdje - ta mapa je proguravana ranije na History of Bosnia and Herzegovina i drugdje. Ali ako je ostavimo samo na Chronicle of the Priest of Doclea - nece biti nikakvog sukoba - niti se forsiral to djelo kao izvor, niti se negira. Nema osnova za pobunu prikazivanja predstave jednog geografskog teritorija kako jedno djelo prikazuje - ovo nema veze sa samom Istorijom (ja, inace, ne smatram prvi dio Barskoga rodoslova za izvar - vec samo kako sam svestenik kaze - mitoloska/legendarna predstava). --HolyRomanEmperor 13:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Timisoara

Zdarvo! Thank you for references, can you please contribute to Timisoara page, I don't know serbian, your help would be greatly appreciated especially if you have some serbian references regarding the city/region demographics and history, it looks to me like someone wants to push some personal views over there. AdrianTM 15:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jezik

Cudno sto nemamo kartu Crne Gore po jeziku (mislio sam da se to zna odavno). --HolyRomanEmperor 13:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Renaming

Check here and let me know what you think. Your opinion is appreciated. ilir_pz 00:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyways, that proposal is of temporary in nature, until the status is defined. But in the link above I gave the reasons why I think as of now the name should be changed, to comply with UN admin naming, and I gave the illustration. I agree with your statements, though. ilir_pz 13:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] View on Montenegro and Bosnia

The history of the Monenegrin people and the Bosnian people for that matter is very odd and complicated. Seems Serbs and Croats are always trying to claim them as ethnic Serbs or Croats. For long periods in history common belief was that Montenegrins were Serbs in origin and Bosnians were Croats in origin but took up Islam faith. This was what we heard and there is some evidence to support this theory but today people are trying to change it and again thorugh up new theories. Today you hear that Bosnians are Serb origin and some have gone to great lengths such as user Panonian to to push this line of thought, wrong or right it is a new theory and people should be aware of that. For me its quite obvious that Bosnians are Croats. As for Montenegrins being Serbs I think its possible but us Montenegrins like the Bosnians have our own theory which has little or no link with Serbs or Croats. Historians forget that Montenegrins came to the Adriatic first in the 6th century ahead of others such as Croats and Serbs who came in the 7th. Now proving who is who and what is our origin is open to debate...and every man and his dog is making some claim. For me we have 4 nations now, 4 different people with a common Slavic language. I would go as far as to say long long ago we were all the same people in origin..but under which name is anyones guess...good luck in searching for that...Evergreen Montenegro1 03:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

cut and paste from my siteEvergreen Montenegro1 03:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC) To Panoanian i have respect for you and found most of your post fair. I just don't agree on Bosnia thats all.Evergreen Montenegro1 03:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vojvodina

Do you have a high resolution base map of Vojvodina used in Image:Vojvodina_ethnic2002.png, with all the lines drawn in? The image could do with being higher resolution, and the colours changing a bit (i.e. use light versions of the main colours to indicate relative majority) — Nicholas (reply) @ 13:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

pa, mislim da to pise na svakom clanku o odgovarajucoj opstini u CG. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, nabavit cu cim mogu. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gulf of Kotor

Pogledaj tamo informacije. Procitaj cenzuse iz 1900 sto si ti dodao - i onda one iz 1910 pod Croats. Dakle, ispostavlja se da su vecina Bokeljskih Hrvata bili pravoslavci. Je li to moguce? Provjeri svoje popise, molim te. --HolyRomanEmperor 19:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Pa, ima li onda uopste tragova o Hrvatima Boke kotorske - znam da je to popularna tema, ali hocu da vidim zasto/kako/gdje/kada? --HolyRomanEmperor 19:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Eto ga na - pa da li sad oces da kazes da ne postoji nista o Hrvatima Boke - a imamo deo clanka o njima. To mi je vrlo cudno... --HolyRomanEmperor 20:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ej, pa sta sad? Ili daj popravi to - ili hajmo naci nesto o Hrvatima u Boki... --HolyRomanEmperor 20:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ZAŠTO

Why are you looking for information??? Ask the Montenegrin people themselves, they will tell you. Most sources are rubbish....trust me ..too much theory not enough fact... The Serbs have gone to great lengths to change the history of Boka and i would say most people have bought it. I guess they had the fear that Croatia sooner or later would try to claim this region back. As silly as it sounds same goes for trying to Serbanise Croat people eg like Ivo Andric and Rudjer Boscovich. Some Serbs have gone to great legths to try to make everyone Serbian and i have seen it first hand here on wikipedia. If you give people power to edit here and freedom to print rubbish in books you finally end up with a wrong historical account with heavy Serbian Pov. When an outsider reads both sides they can only say WHAT THE??? as i often do.

Leave history as we know it. Bosnia was settled by Croats who coverted to Islam. Montenegro was settled by Serbs. Boka was settled by Croats. This is ancient history but today is anotehr story and another debate. and SURE all along you had people who called themselves Montenegrin and Bosnjak..which adds to confusion.

Evergreen Montenegro1 03:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Eurovision

Pana de si bre, I always wander how Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia and Bosnia all give eachother the highest points avialable. Is it the song or some old brotherhood of love for one another???? What's the bet Montenegro gets 12 points from all of you next year. Any chance of Lepa Brena singing for Serbia or Bosnia??? She's a fox.....mmm lepa Yes ....

Evergreen Montenegro1 05:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Pana odgovori bre

De je tvoja logika bre???

Zašto Srbi menjaju istoriju???? Zašto menjate na wikipediju i na internet istoriju????


I can't understand your logic at all........ Every man and his dog knows that Boka was "settled" by Croats. Croats also "settled" Bosnia. There were some tribes from Serbia that came with them to Bosnia, Boka and even Croatia, I don't deny that but not in large numbers that you refer to. Serbs only had a small minority in Boka and Bosnia. Bosnians all in all are Croats who coverted to Islam not Serbs who converted to Islam. This is what was taught in istorija of Yugoslavia. We all know this. (who "ruled" Bosnia thru history is another story) Look at the shape of Croatia today on "your" atlas, looks odd from Zagreb to Dubrovnik and to Istra. Weird way to settle don't you think???... Croats settled on the Adriatic and Bosnia and Boka region while the Serbs behind them settled Montenegro and Serbia of today. Over time populations have changed and people have moved around, mixed like a "chorba". We're talking about first settlement patterns of so called South Slavs (first settlement) and not who is there now or last 50-300 years. Please be fair. SETTLEMENT PATTERN of arrival. You seem to be looking at patterns after first settlement.

You have to fair that today we're all mixed. People moved around and settled and change %%%. Look at Boka from 1910 to now. I think if you look long and hard you will find same thing happened in Bosnia, Croat settled and were majority and Serbs were minority, but populations go up and down.


Look at Kosovo today...very few Albanians came when Tito let them stay, now they have enough ppl to have a county. Same goes for Bosnia, Serbs grew in numbers over time but well after first settlement.

I hope we go well in the World Cup....our last together ...but you never know one day we could all have a new Yugoslavia...never rule it out.

ZdravoEvergreen Montenegro1 05:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

ps EUROVISION - Mostly Croats sang on it for Yugoslavia...one of best results was when our Montenegrin - Danijel sang "Julie" we got to 3rd i think. I think Croat band "Riva" won it too...


ZOKI is my nickname


[edit] Europe Maps

Hello Panonian, Fergananim here. I was wondering if you would be able to do something for me? The map of Europe in the 1430's - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_in_1430.PNG - and 1470's shows Ireland coloured purple, as if it was under English rule at the time. Could you please colour it green (except in the area about Dublin) for both these eras to demonstrate that this was not the case. Deeply appreciated, Fergananim 20:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] CG Wikipedia

Hey PANONIAN, there is currently a vote for a version of Wikipedia in Montenegrin. If you want to vote, go to meta:Requests for new languages. There you can vote. Ask your friends on Wikipedia (if you have any) who haven't voted to vote. Thanks. Crna Gora (Talk/Contribs/Edit Count) 03:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Subdivisions of Hungary

I was also thinking about it, for me it's the same, but I looked up Category:Subdivisions by country and I saw that cities, towns and villages are usually put in the "subdivisions" category.

Examples: Finland, Greece (see communities), Poland, Italy, Japan, France, the United States, Portugal, Romania, Latvia, Norway (here villages are in, cities are out), Luxembourg (here towns are in, cities are out). – It looks there are no clear policies about it.

As far as these geographical units are concerned, I must say that subdivisions can be both political and geographical regions at the same time, as written in the article Country subdivision. However, I think you are right because these in question are only geographical and not political, and I'm going to move those back to the Geography category (although the present arrangement is much easier for me to look over).

I must add that Category:Bačka and Category:Banat are basically political regions, not primarily geographical ones, to my best knowledge, as well as Danube-Kris-Mures-Tisza and Baranya (region) are. So I'm going to leave them where they are. Adam78 11:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I've moved Puszta, Great Alföld, Little Alföld, Gemenc and Pannonian Plain back to the Geography category. Now I find the present situation correct and justified so please let me know if you should want to move back any more articles or categories before doing so so we can discuss it. Adam78 12:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there anything that prevents you (or anyone else) using the already-existing categories Category:Subdivisions of Romania, Category:Subdivisions of Croatia, Category:Subdivisions of Serbia? This way the categories could be the same for all the four countries and the "Subdivisions of Hungary" shouldn't be removed from the articles where it is justified.

I think it can be safely said that e.g. the Danube-Kris-Mures-Tisza is a common subdivision of Hungary, Romania and Serbia. I don't think the "sub-" prefix prevents its common use between countries, since subdivisions can be shared, like (almost) everything else. So I'd say the Danube-Kris-Mures-Tisza and the other, mostly political entities could be placed into the "subdivision" categories of the relevant countries. Adam78 15:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, agreed on everything. And a big thank you for creating the articles about the regions! Adam78 20:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] help with Neo-Nazism in Croatia please

Please see Talk:Neo-Nazism in Croatia and tell me if I'm being unreasonable or just beating my head against the wall with people who don't accept compromise. --Joy [shallot] 11:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stefan in Nemanjic

You should know that Stefan was also a title to them.

It will be no harm to have a page which tells what sort of title it was, and to have all those biographies to have a link to that. Maed 15:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Such taking of name to mark something is also a sort of title. The article about that will explain it. Besides, it was taken partly because it means "crown-bearer", "crowned". It was taken by also such who did not have it at birth, but only after claiming the crown.

If you try to look and not just oppose so hastily, you will see that the biographies do not show the word "title", it is in piped link.

A good characterization of such a name anyway IS "title". Maed 15:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


I would write, were it not so that a certain vandal (take a look at a mirror) causes other work... Maed 15:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Neonazism in Croatia

Ne, nisam nikome prijetio da cu ga blokirati, samo sam rekao da sam bio u velikom iskusenju. Molim te ignoriraj taj post korisnika Maayaa jer je to FUD. Pitao sam samo da razmotris situaciju i das mi svoje misljenje. (To se bas ne slaze s profilom nervoznog manijaka koji ide i banira ljude, zar ne? :) Hvala. --Joy [shallot] 20:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Mislio sam na clanak i vezanu diskusiju, anonimusa ima nekoliko i nema prevelikog smisla ganjati ih ponaosob. Ovo sto si napisao je sasvim dovoljno, hvala. Ne grize me uopce savjest, nego samo na trenutke pomislim da gubim razum kad vidim sto ljudi pisu.

Zato i potpuno razumijem stav izbjegavanja takvih tema, jer stvarno ima hrpa propagandista. Mene povremeno toliko izlude da prestanem uopce editirati Wikipediju. Ipak, na trenutke je korisno, a i nadam se da ce posluziti jednog dana kao dobra prica za oko logorske vatrice... "ee, a da znas kakvog sam *ja* tek kretena vidio na Internetu... bilo je to jedne tamne zimske noci..." :)

Inace, ne moras se truditi oko arhiviranja moje talk stranice jer ja to ne zelim i samo cu morati revertirati - vidi User talk:Joy#There za objasnjenje :)

--Joy [shallot] 21:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jevgjit?

Hi Panonia, Hope you are doing well. Are Jevgjit the same as Kosovo Egyptian or are they Ashkali? --E Asterion u talking to me? 06:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. No problem, I will ask Ilir later on. Not sure where is he gone. I haven't "seen" him around for a while. --E Asterion u talking to me? 00:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

I hope we could fix this argument about the maps in the Metohija article here. Unfortenaly there must have been some mistakes. No need to hasty deletation of each others maps, we could discuss everything first, right? I have added two maps now in the history section, one of the old State of Union of Serbia and Montenegro, since it is showing the province (which Metohija is a part of) in the area and it is also historical. The other one showing the greater part of Metohija within the state of Montenegro anno 1913. The map of the districts of Kosovo is not alone the best map of Metohija because it does not distinguise showing Metohija, the districts does not follow the natural borders. And the the districts that are shown could be inflammatory to some since the subdivisions are very still not recogniced by all the invalved communites. Maybe a geographical map, showing Metohija with name, would be best? But I noticed that you were very good in creating maps, maybe you could create a neutral map of Metohija showing the borders and the biggest cities only, maybe in the periferi Kosovo, Montenegro and Albania? Best Regards Litany 19:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hahahahaha. Panonian, I am amused but also concerned about your attack. I dont speak your language that well so I got it translated. Hint? I am very much Swedish but I am devoted to Balkan. But I probably lie about that too, right? ;)

You were (as I got it) very hostile and with no reason since I have never done you anything. I started a friendly discussion. About that Metohija and Europe map you exaggerated. The maps I provided have a historical value and will do so forever. If this makes you feel more important I am happy for you. Good map. Ajde cao Litany 09:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hahahahaha. Sorry Panonian but I find this a bit amusing. :) No I dont take this as an offence. I dont know what I should do to confirm you that there is no Balkan blood in me! :) My father is "full blooded" Swede from Skellefteå and my mother is "full blooded" Swede from Märsta. :)
About the link (Serbs in Sweden) I was joking and referring "We" to "Sweden" as I am a Swede. :) Sweden is a part of the Serbian Diaspora like the Bosniak Diaspora. You know it lives atleast 150 000 people from Croatia, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Serbia and Montenegro in Sweden. Sorry but I am not one of them. :)
I dont know why you are so suspicious to me? Because I edit on the Kosovo page? Or because I like Burek? :) Balkan and its history is my passion. Not so strange maybe?
Okey, I agree with you about the maps, but still the maps has historical value as long they are under the history section. But no need to argue about that now. I understand that people have a special point of view because of war and crimes commited to them, but that should not reflect . I dont like to provoke and I dont like people that do either. And I dont like nationalism or propaganda. The minority rights dosent only consern the Serbs in Kosovo. I've meet all to many here who neglects the questions about that (and alot more). How much the Albanian population even whant it we should never let them erase the historical facts about other people in Kosovo (that's the exact same thing Milosevic wanted to do with the Albanians).
I think your maps are exquisite, what program do you use? I am thankful for your help and I can tell you that I am not offended. :) If you want any proof that I really am Swedish and get to know why I am so interessted in Balkan you could send me an email and/or add me on MSN. I would glady have a discussion with you about Balkan. I bet you have alot informaton to contribute me with. Until then take care. Best regards - Litany 18:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belgrade statue

Hello and sorry for the strange question, but I saw a fountain in Belgrade near Hotel Moscow, which looked like a statue. Just M.O. and the year 1861 (or 1860) and No. 1. is written on it. (I hope you will know which one is it...) Could you tell me what is it? (Has it anything to do with M.O.=Magyarország?) Sorry again.Thanks.kelenbp 20:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


Probably you are right, meanwhile I found this picture of the hotel and the fountain: http://www.rastko.org.yu/isk/images/hotel_moscow.html kelenbp 20:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

OK., I've found it... "The title Terazije comes from turkish word connected with distribution of water. The spread of Terazije began in 1860, there were built many buildings and shops and as the memory of Prince Mihailo Obrenovic the Terazije fountain replaced the wells."kelenbp 21:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

М.О. means Милош Обреновић, Prince Miloš Obrenović. The fountain was built in honour of his return to Serbian throne (for the second time) between 1858 and 1860. I think this will help. 195.250.110.35 17:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] ==Novi Sad==

Inadvertently clicked the <nowiki> button without noticing, obviously. Sorry.Duja 14:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magyars: Genetics

I guess you might want to take a look at this long argument (and eventual references therein): [4]

Perhaps we should add a link to this discussion in the topic about genetics at Talk:Magyars ?

Svaka čast za mapu Dunavske banovine, dobro je urađena. Alexzr88 17:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bosanski Srbi

Evo ti jedno istorijsko pitanje. :)

Otkuda toliko (pravoslavnih) Srba u Bosni i Hercegovini? Zar je moguce da je toliko ogroman broj migrirao iz drugih srpskijeh zemalja - npr pogledaj clanak o demografskoj istoriji BiH-a - Muslimani su cinili preko 75% stanovnistva - a onda imamo neki pravoslavni bum... Any ideas? --HolyRomanEmperor 18:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Aha, kapiram - pa i to ima smisla, jer su to bas etnicki teritoriji Muslimana (Bosnjaka) - danasnji srpsko-crnogorski Sandzak, centralno-istocna Bosna, itd. No, otkuda u velikim brojkama na prvom mjestu? Pravoslavni srpski zivalj je bio autohton/cinio vecinu u Zahumlju (danasnja Hercegovina) i samo u nekim predjelima istocne Bosne (Soli i tuda okolo). --HolyRomanEmperor 10:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NIJE SVE CRNO BELO

Like i said before i have called myself what my family has for many generations. Montenegrin. End of story. Now that we have a county I think i can say it with pride. What we were before Croats, Slavs, Iranians, Serbs, Illyrians, Turks..is a huge ????? Nobody is 100% pure anything let alone Croat or Serb. We're all mixed but we can just point out what people where when they came to the Balkans and how they settled areas. There are records to support this theory of Croats in Boka, it's just Serbian POV to close it and hide it from the public eye. Why I will never know??? I have only discoverd it now. For the record..Please.... Tesla is Serb, Boscovich and Andric are Croats to say anything else is stupid, you know it and I know it. I have debated the origin of Marco Polo, I think he was Croat yet this view is unpopular with Italians. I can understand that some people are fueled with some notion of Greater Serbia, we're all Serbs etc......there is some truth in it after all Croats and Serbs are so mixed it's just like Adidas and Puma..same thing just went a different way...You must agree ay champ. I think we're judging people on ancient things. Let's get along after all i think we're in the same Chroba. Our arguing would be endless and pointless ..neither could win. Evergreen Montenegro1 03:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Panonian- PS I think you have made some very good factual posts at times while sometimes you buy into the notion that everyone across the Balkans is Serb. You try to stay unbias but yet push Serb Pov too, little by little. You have clearly been reading Serbian books for too long...not saying they are wrong but anyone who says Serbs settled Bosnia, more than Croats has clearly been drinking too much Rakija. NO offence ok. You have to go with what was writen way before not 1991+. All the best...i have had enough..we all have our views ..take care Evergreen Montenegro1 03:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Pana,....please note and I hope you agree.... Greed for power - politics - religion - dreaming of being like on tv shows Dallas and Dynasty. This is why Yugolslavia had its problems and to tell you the truth West prefers all little countries than a big Yugoslavia. They also prefer the Soviet Union in bits. When i went to Montenegro and other parts of Yugosavia in the 80s all people got on well, mixed and respected one anothers religion and views etc.... Politika and people at the top made all the trouble...told people lie after lie...and we all bought it...I know there is some truth to "Greater Serbia" but they only wanted what was best for everyone... Belgrade to control all and not have rotation system in politics/rule...and maybe if Serbs got what they wanted in a peaceful way maybe all would be living in a good debt free Yugoslavia. Today we have small counrties, we will all do it tough, but we will be ok. India has 100 languages ...Yugoslavia had 4 and fell apart, tells you a lot about the people. I like what Rade Serbedjia said in one movie -Broken English- playing a Croat he said to a New Zealander "You will never understand it"...refering to why Serbs and Croats don't get on....even i find it hard to understand, how can an outsider.. Today people are telling new stories, new theory etc....its sad that we all keep pushing POV that we know is based on half truths...nobody knows 100% Serbs and Croats according to some could be same people, devided only by religion over time, this is plausable and as you said even today they are mixed ...who is what is ancient history...what are you today counts and Iam Montenegrin.

Evergreen Montenegro1 23:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your post I too don't want to discuss politics etc... All the best...

Take Care Evergreen Montenegro1 03:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bosanci

Pa, po Austrijskim, Otomanskim i srpskim izvorima, s kraja 16 vijeka i pocetka 17 vijeka oko 75% (tri cetvrtine) stanovnistva provincija Bosne i Hercegovina jeste bilo muslimanske vjeroispovesti (pogledaj taj clanak). --HolyRomanEmperor 07:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Serbia template

Pozdrav. Video sam na listi premijera Srbije da su na Serbia template (ili kako vec) dodate planine i regioni koje si ti radio. kako mogu da se ubace i reke? Rivers of Serbia? PajaBG 20:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hvala. Sve je lakse kad ti neko prvo pokaze :o) PajaBG 22:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad Edits

Pana,

{{{Ivo Andric is listed on wikipedia as Serbian Croatian Yugoslav...this is wrong He should be listed as Croatian Bosnian ...He was a Croat born in Bosnia and only wrote in Serbian or you could call it Serbo-Croatian. To say he was Serbian ahead of Croatian is wrong and should be fixed. Sure one can mention he was Serbian national but maybe in 3rd paragraph.

{{{Rudjer Boscovich and all the Serbian theory should be placed in discussion page not in main article. He was Croat Italian and it's well known he lied about being related to Serbian nobility..it was proven he was in fact from a poor Croatian family not a noble Serbian one....also having an Italian mum seems to left out far to often in all the debates.

{{{Nikola Tesla If you leave Andric as Serb, you should change Tesla to Serbian Croatian American to be fair...

I would be happy to leave

Tesla as just Serb American,

Boscovich as Croat/Italian and


Andric Croat/Bosnian.


I think this would be fair

Evergreen Montenegro1 23:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Question

If Bosnians and Montenegrins are Serbs in origin why do they prefer to use latinica like Croats and not Chirilica like the Serbs??? In the part of Montenegro were my parents are from only Latinica is used and all record books are in latinica only. I think the same goes for Bosnia.

Why???If they are all Serb origin why not use Chirilica text like the Serbs.....

Evergreen Montenegro1 05:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Answer

Because they don't like Serbs, and wanna be different,but after all they aren't! Alexzr88 14:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Haha, or they simply aren't Montenegrins (Serbs by blood) but Croatian Montenegrins/Bosniak Montenegrins or my favourite: Albanian Montenegrins. ;) NeCCCC

[edit] Re: Hrvatski ili mađarski nazivi

Da, naravno, to je i meni palo na pamet, ali vidi diskusiju na Talk:Administrative divisions of the Kingdom of Hungary#Naming issues, gdje sam ja napisao bit problema - jednostavno nemam nikakvu referencu gdje bi vidio kako su doista vlasti Hrvatske tada zvale te comitatuse. Ako je nadjes, molim te napisi/polinkaj je, pozeljno na engleskom na toj talk stranici tako da ostane objasnjeno za sve. --Joy [shallot] 23:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Tesko mi je zastupati kategoricki stav o tome kad nemam literaturu. Been there, got burned :) Hvala na interesu. --Joy [shallot]

[edit] Millennium Hall

What is the proper name of the arena in Vrsac? Is it Millennium Hall, or Millennium Center? Wherever I look, it says that KK Hemofarm plays at Centar Millennium, not Hala Millennium. I look forward to your reply. Regards, --Krytan talk 21:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Re:Mape

Nema problema, mislio sam da se nećeš ljutiti—imao sam vremena, a ti si rekao da ga baš i nemaš. Duja 10:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Misliš, anti-aliasing? Znam za to, al' nisam mislio da je nešto bitan na takvom tipu crteža. Duja 10:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Ja nemam pojma da sam napravio onaj revert, a kamoli zašto i šta sam mislio (obično i obrazložim u edit summary-ju). Da mi nisi dokazao da jesam, rekao bih da lažeš... :-). Nesto se sjecam da sam primijetio za*eb sa history infobox-om, ali na sta sam mislio da revertujem... ko zna... Krečana, šta ćeš... Duja 13:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Template

Ups, sori, previdio drugi komentar. Nazalost nemam Operu instaliranu nigdje blizu da bih mogao debugirati problem. --Joy [shallot] 16:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Mačva

Hi, I think that most of the places that you put in Category:Mačva don't have anything to do with Mačva. The only major settlements in Mačva are Šabac and Bogatić. Being an administrative part of Mačva District doesn't make them a part of Mačva; Krupanj iz in Mačva as much as Beočin is in Bačka. The category should either be depopulated or moved to Category:Mačva district. Duja 07:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Mhm, istorijski gledano da, ali izgleda u najmanju ruku čudno. Kao kad bi stavio Beli Manastir u kategoriju Vojvodina jer je Baranja nekad bila njen deo. Pojam Mačva se danas odnosi na puno manje područje, a to što je mesto u Mačvanskom okrugu ne znači i da je u Mačvi (kao što mesta u Nišavskom okrugu nisu na Nišavi). Mislim da ti je kriterijum malo (malo više) arbitraran. Duja 10:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Vidi, nije big deal oko Mačve, ali bi trebalo da u načelu uspostavimo neke kriterijume. Ako vršimo pod-klasifikaciju, treba da budemo dosljedni. Kvaka je što savremeni okruzi, iako dobro definisani, slabo odgovaraju istorijskim granicama oblasti, a većina ljudi ih nešto i ne ferma (ja prvi ne znam napamet koji su gradovi u Južnobačkom okrugu). Drugo, Srbija nekako nije jasno podijeljena na oblasti; npr. Šumadija OK, ali npr. kraj oko Užica i kraj oko Smedereva se, koliko znam, ne zovu. Kraj oko Krupnja se zove Rađevina (a vjerovatno ne bih ni ja znao da nisam bio tamo). Zato sam i krenuo ovu diskusiju da unaprijed vidimo šta i kako (iako nemam neki naročito pametan prijedlog). Duja 11:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bosut

Can you find the population for the village of Bosut, Serbia? I have looked in all the obvious places but that data doesn't seem to be available anywhere online. --Joy [shallot] 20:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The best I could find is this old map from which it is apparent that the village once had less than 1000 residents. I'd guess the data there is from censuses 1981 or 1991. --Joy [shallot] 20:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hvala za Bosut. Sto se tice karte Nakhichevana, mogu je dodati, ali upada mi u oci to da vec ima bolja karta u clanku, Image:Nakhichevan-map.png, pa nema smisla dodavati jos i Image:Nakhichevan03.png. --Joy [shallot] 21:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Sori, ali kad su stranice protected, onda se ne zelim mijesati samo tako bezveze. Ne mogu znati da npr. nece sad netko uletit i tvrdit da je to separatisticka karta zato sto ne prikazuje nista drugo. Ili da ce reci da favoriziram stranicu koja je protected tako sto je editiram. Drugim rijecima, ako edit nije trivijalan, ne treba ga raditi na protected stranici. Vidi Wikipedia:Protection policy. --Joy [shallot] 22:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm

Znas li da se tvoje ime pise sa dva N? --HolyRomanEmperor 09:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Award

Hope you accept my award:

Panonian, I hereby awarded you the Seal of Scanderbeg , for spreading neutrality, and contributing in a spirit that is needed more in Wikipedia. I have not read comments from any Serb to be more constructive and well-balanced than from yours. May your words influence your compatriots, which often are very emotional about something lost for good, and instead look forwards to make Serbia join the European Union. ilir_pz 12:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Panonian, I hereby awarded you the Seal of Scanderbeg , for spreading neutrality, and contributing in a spirit that is needed more in Wikipedia. I have not read comments from any Serb to be more constructive and well-balanced than from yours. May your words influence your compatriots, which often are very emotional about something lost for good, and instead look forwards to make Serbia join the European Union. ilir_pz 12:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Kategorije

Srediću sve vremenom (izbaciti cat:...Serbia, pošto članak ne bi trebalo da bude i u roditeljskoj kategoriji), ali nisam postigao. Sređivao sam Category:Geography of Serbia pa je Kupinovo ispalo "kolateralna šteta", jer sam na njega natrčao usput. Duja 08:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Pa, principijelno, ne slažem se baš, po rezonu da članak ne bi smio biti u dve kategorije u istoj hijerarhiji (al' nisam nešto ni jako protiv, ako je tako pogodnije)... mislim da je trenutno na kategorizaciji naših geo-artikala groblje... Jedno te isto mjesto je u 6 kategorija, 8 listi... možda bi trebalo pogledati kako je urađeno za neku "kulturnu" zemlju pa da se držimo toga? 'Ajd zaći ću npr. po Njemačkoj ili Švajcarskoj, koje imaju sličnu unutrašnju organizaciju, pa ću pogledati prije nego što išta ozbiljnije zađem po člancima (trenutno sam malo u frci). Duja 12:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Pa dobro, možda si i u pravu; nemam namjeru da vodim rat protiv vjetrenjača, tim prije što neću postići ništa bitno. Ipak treba da se držimo nekog reda. Npr. mislim da sam dobro uradio što sam obrisao Category:Geography of Serbia sa članaka iz Category:Rivers of Serbia, ali nisam brisao npr. Category:Geography of Vojvodina (jer je iz druge grane). Drugim rečima: možemo se dogovoriti da članak može pripadati dvema kategorijama istog tipa ali različite lokacije (npr: Category:Cities of Serbia i Category:Cities of Vojvodina) ali ne i u npr (Category:Cities, towns and villages in Serbia i Category:Geography of Serbia).Duja 13:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Yet?

Vojvodina is not independent yet? Could you prove your "yet" claim? --serbiana - talk 16:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Pa video sam ja šta je Duja uradio, ali me je zbunilo ono tvoje "yet" :) --serbiana - talk 16:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Nema šanse da će IKAD Vojvodina biti nezavisna, jednostavno je nemoguće. --serbiana - talk 16:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Jebiga... otkad živim u Kanadi ne kontam fazone... :)) --serbiana - talk 20:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greater Croatia

Hi PANONIAN, please could you explain me why you remove the sentence about Serbian ideological use of the term from the article? In my opinion:

  • It is sourced (the link is in the article itself)
  • It is an important use of the term "Greater Croatia", so it is relevant for the article

You can respond here, I will watch this page. Happy editing, --Ioannes Pragensis 20:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Because:

  • 1. It is not article about Serbian ideology, but about Croatian one.
  • 2. I do not think that term was misused in the Serbian war propaganda. For example, during the war in Croatia, I listened Croatian radio, and Croatian nationalistic songs which were played on that radio were clear example of Greater Croatian aims. For example the song that say that Croatian soldiers will drink coffee in Zemun (on the percieved eastern border of Croatia). I really do not see what can be misused there.
  • 3. You already have Greater Serbia article (the one that I never read whole) where you can write about Serbian ideology.
  • 4. Creating a balance with Serbian ideology in "Greater Croatia" article certainly looks like some kind of "justification" of Greater Croatian ideology. I agree that article is much better after your edits (compared with the original one written by Krestić), but the part about Serbian ideology is simply missed subject. PANONIAN (talk) 20:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you PANONIAN for your thoughts. Here is my response:

  • ad 1: The article is not about a Serbian ideology, but is also not about the Croatian one. It is about the term "Greater Croatia" which was used in both ideologies. Read the title of the article please. :-)
  • ad 2: Your example does not fit the problem; it only proves that the "Greater Croatia" complex of ideas was misused also by the Croatian side during the Yugo-war (which is beyond any reasonable doubt and should be elaborated in the article) - but this does not disprove my sentence about the use of the term also by the Serbian propaganda - which is IMHO also beyond reasonable doubt
  • ad 3: Please do not think in terms of "you have here this article - we have that article"; in Wikipedia, we all have all articles and should wisely cooperate here. And similarly, the Greater Serbia should not be about "the" Serbian ideology (there is nothing like THE Serbian ideology or THE Croatian ideology), but only about one term. And whether I will edit there or not, this does not matter here. - Understand me well, I am not on a side of the conflict and in fact I have no special relationships to the region of the former Yugoslavia. My interest is simply to have good articles here.
  • ad 4: The sad reality is that both Serbian and Croatian ideologies are so thoroughly interconnected, that it is virtually impossible to write a good article about one of them without mentioning the second one. Like in my country, it is impossible to write about Czech political ideologies without mentioning Germans and their political ideologies. I do not wish to create a balance between ideologies or justify them, because Wikipedia should not be a battleground of ideologies. I wish to concentrate on proven and significant facts. Like the one you have deleted.

Godd night and please, rethink it once more. --Ioannes Pragensis 23:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, let start from the beginning. Here is the quote of the disputed sentence: "On the other side, the term was also misused in the Serbian war propaganda in the 1990s: Serbian ideologists - e.g. Vasilije Krestić - denounced all Croats as expansionist adherents of the Greater Croatia ideology in order to justify their own aggresive politics." I will speak now about concrete problems with this sentence. If you say that term was misused, would you like to explain how exactly it was misused? What I saw is that disputes between two ideologies existed, and even Krestić only wrote how Serbs should to respond to Croatian ideology. I would not call this a "misuse" of the term. Also, I do not remember that Krestić wrote that ALL Croats are "expansionist adherents of the Greater Croatia ideology". These statements should be confirmed at least. PANONIAN (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, take for example this Krestic citate: "The shape of Croatia is compared by some to a banana or crescent. A Croatia such as this, in the conviction of all the politically thinking Croats, has no chance of surviving and progressing." Let me allow to translte it into plain English: "All Croats are stupid or must become imperialist, just because of the shape of their country." By the way this was the part of the article which convinced me that I should edit it thoroughly, altough I am generally not interested in the Balkan politics. :-( --Ioannes Pragensis 19:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
But it was not Krestić that said that "The shape of Croatia is compared by some to a banana or crescent". He simply quoted Croatian politicians that said that. Also, I again do not see that he refered to ALL Croats, but only to "all the politically thinking Croats", which is not same as ALL Croats. As I suspected, reference to ALL Croats is your interpretation. :) PANONIAN (talk) 20:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Please read my example once more and think again. There are two sentences in it. In the first one, which is less important here and I cited it only as the context, VK does not quote in the scientific sense, he only gossips and hopes that the naive reader will believe that Croatian politicians really speak about their country in terms like "banana".
The second sentence is the substantial one. You are true, that "all the politically thinking Croats" is not same as all Croats in the exact "mathematical" sense. But remember that the human language is almost never completely exact, it relies heavily on the context. Here the context is politics, so "all the politically thinking Croats" are in fact "all Croats relevant for the purpose of the discourse" - the rest being children and idiots. So it is an "interpretation", but a really straightforward one, an interpretation of a kind we use thousand times every day. If you say to a friend "I have all my things here," you usually mean only things relevant in the moment, e.g. things needed for a sport, and not all possible things you own.
And there are another examples from the article going in the same direction, so I think that this interpretation is validated by them. E.g. "the Croats, in the opinion of Stjepan Radic, learned to think that there is no free and united Croatia without Bosnia and Hercegovina. If the Croats thought so while they were within Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia, and this statement by Radic should be believed, it is then certain that today such a thought is even more widespread." Read the whole VK article, please, and try to read it as if it were not about Croatians (you are probably a bit Croatia-allergic), but about an almost unknown foreign country - exactly as I read it. And you will see that besides many facts it contains also a lot of Serbian ideology centered around the concept of "Greater Croatia". Greetings --Ioannes Pragensis 22:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your quotes of Krestić, your claims about his intentions are largelly based on assumptions and guessing. I mean, it is not so obvious that Krestić had intentions to misuse Greater Croatia term. Using word "Croats" instead of "Croatian politicians" or "Croatian leaders" or of the name of the Croatian politician that he quoted, does not mean that he had some hidden intentions behind this. Maybe he simply prefered to use word "Croats" in his texts and he maybe was not aware of the double meaning that such usage might have. PANONIAN (talk) 23:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I would not say this. He is clever and well educated - I would rather think that he works with double meanings very consciously.

But let us not stuck on small details. I suggest this shorter compromise formulation: "On the other side, the term was also used in the Serbian propaganda in the 1990s: Serbian ideologists - e.g. Vasilije Krestić - denounced all Croat politicians as expansionist adherents of the Greater Croatia ideology." Is it OK for you? --Ioannes Pragensis 08:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

  • It is OK but if you post it in Greater Serbia article. As I see them, both articles are primarily about irredentist ideologies and not about term itself. What we should write in Greater Croatia article is how Croatian irredentists misused term Greater Serbia and accused Serbia and Serbian politicians for Greater Serbia ideology with purpose to justify their own expansionism. PANONIAN (talk) 19:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It gives no sense to me. The sentence is about Greater Croatia, not about Greater Serbia. Of course, there should probably be a similar information about the usage of the term "Greater Serbia" in mouths of Croatian nationalists. But I have no sources to this and am not able to seek them because I lack the knowledge of the Croatian language. And moreover if the articles are about irredentism, they should have another names, e.g. "Croatian/Serbian irredentism in 1990s". Articles ahould be named in accord with their content.
To tell my personal opinion, there is place here for both types of articles. But the fist need is that they should be good and NPOV articles.--Ioannes Pragensis 19:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
"The sentence is about Greater Croatia, not about Greater Serbia." But that is exactly reason why reference to Serbian ideology does not belong in Greater Croatia article (especially not in the introduction part). Furthermore, the reference to Greater Serbian ideology supported by Krestić obviously tend to discredit main source used for Greater Croatia article on Wikipedia, thus serves as justification for this ideology. There are articles where references to Greater Serbian ideology belong, and articles where they do not. PANONIAN (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Again: Serbian and Croatian ideologies are like twins, you cannot reasonably write about one of them without referencing the other one. It is one of the most important things here, and without doubt it must be in the article.
Regarding the sources, they should be critically judged. Measured by the contemporary scholarly standards, the Kostic article is extremely weak, and it is also clear why: Nobody can lead a war and at the same time remain unpartial. I have no aim to discredit Kostic, he already discredited himself because of his role during the start of the Yugo-war. But I also have no reason to support his paranoic theories. Good evening, --Ioannes Pragensis 20:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I just made a compromise solution and mentioned misuse of both ideologies there. Also, the one who "do not want to support the paranoic theories of one side" often fall into trap to support the paranoic theories of another side and that he is not aware of this. I hoppe this will not be the case with you. PANONIAN (talk) 20:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
No, in this case I am happy enough to be completely disinterested. Or - better - I wish the best to both people, Serbian and Croatian, not only because I wish it to all other nations, but also because I feel them both as sister nations to my own Czech people.
And therefore I think that we all need openess, acceptance of our past including the errors and guilts, and the will to make things better. Look at Germans and French: they have a similar history of war and hate, and now they are friends. So I hope that this will be the case also with Serbia and Croatia one day. The small step we can do here in Wikipedia towards this goal is that we will try to write as unpartial and informed articles as possible, I think.
Have a nice day, --Ioannes Pragensis 10:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Do not understand me wrong, I have nothing against Croatian people. The only thing I have problem with is this Greater Croatian ideology that caused a lot of pain to my family in World War II. Therefor, I watch the changes in both, article about Greater Croatia and about Greater Hungary because my family had bad experience with both. I have nothing against Croatian and Hungarian people, I just want that truth about these two ideologies is correctly presented. This have nothing with ordinary people, but only with political and military leaders that follow these ideologies. I know that Greater Serbia ideology also caused pain to other peoples, and I do not edit that article, because the people who were affected by this ideology should edit it. Of course, all these articles should be NPOV, although there is sometimes disagreement what is NPOV and what is not. PANONIAN (talk) 12:49, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand your feelings well, Panonian. My family and I myself have similar bad experiences with another imperialist ideologies here in the Middle Europe. And it is a good thing that you watch the articles against people who would like to diminish the evil connected with some adherents of these ideologies. But on the other side, even articles about ideologies should not be ideological; and this is still the case with the article we discuss here, I fear. And that is why I deeply disagree with your idea that "the people who were affected by this ideology should edit it" - which is exactly the way how to get as POV articles as possible. So although I am by far not as informed about the Balkan history as you are, I feel that my edits can help here to tear down the ideological canopy over the article. Best regards, --Ioannes Pragensis 14:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

But I did not said that articles edited by "the people who were affected by ideology" should be edited with POV. If people tell me that any my edit is POV, I would consider to change it, but what I have problem with are people who posting their POV either to support ideology either to diminish its historical and political role in certain events. In the concrete case, it is well known that supporters of Greater Croatia often misuse term Greater Serbia to find justification for their aims. That is a reason why I objected to have reference to Greater Serbia there. PANONIAN (talk) 15:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
...and that is why I think that it should be there. The reader without knowledge of the local history should know that he will not fully understand "Greater X" without "Greater Y", where X and Y are neighbouring states. In my opinion, even an explanation about Greater Hungary should be there. WP is for readers, not for editors.--Ioannes Pragensis 16:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
But what exactly you object to the current compromise version of Greater Croatia article that I proposed? PANONIAN (talk) 22:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, first of all, it needs sources and citations. I will have a wikibreak soon, but then I will probably return to this and we can discuss it further. Thank you, --Ioannes Pragensis 08:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Name

I meni to zvuci logicnije, ali cim sam pogledao talk stranicu upalo mi je u oci ono I think the current way of naming has been agreed upon after a lenghty edit war, no point in stirring it up again. Prati postupak sa Wikipedia:Requested moves ako hoces da se to pomakne. --Joy [shallot] 22:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Usput, meni bi bilo najlogicnije da se koristi slash (/) kao delimiter medju dvama ravnopravnim imenima. --Joy [shallot] 22:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pannonian Rusyn

Maybe you take this subject personally (I mean your name is PANNONIAN) but Pannonian Rusyn are simply displaced Rusyn who speak a dialect of the language. Much like Volga Germans are simply Germans who lived in Russia - they do not constitute a separate ethnic group and hence do not merit two population boxes. If you don't believe me, please look at the population box in Rusyns - it lists the 15,000 Pannonian Rusyns as part of the same ethnicity. Also, please stop calling me a vandal - I do not appreciate it and you wouldn't appreciate it either if it was reciprocated. 72.153.53.35 22:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I did not take it personally, and it have nothing to do with my nickname. Pannonian Rusyns are clearly established ethnic group and question whether they are part of northern Rusyns is disputed issue. All ethnic groups articles should have such tables (no matter if these groups are also considered part of some larger ethnos). Please do not remove tables, because such removal of content is vandalism, once you stop this, I will not call you a vandal. PANONIAN (talk) 22:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No more here - in a better place now

Greetings. I am HRE's cousin. I have a sad news to announce (as per his brother's wish) - my dear brother-by-aunt is no more in the world of the living... It pains me enough to write this - so I'm just going to point you to HRE's talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:HolyRomanEmperor#As_per_Your_.28Our.29_brother.27s_request. --Sad News 21:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ej

Nešto sam mozgao... Zašto se ne nominuješ za admina? Mislim da bi prošao. --serbiana - talk 03:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Pravo da ti kažem, i meni se to vrzma po glavi... Duja 14:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry, Panonian, but I will not support you - I feel that an admin should be very much oriented towards basic WP principles, including WP:NPOV. I really appreciate your work here, but I hate POV wars... --Ioannes Pragensis 14:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no need for such comment because I also do not support myself. I like my freedom and the way I speak and behave and adminship would certainly limit that freedom to me. Freedom is much more important than the power (and every power is a kind of slavery), so I must refuse the offer. :) PANONIAN (talk) 15:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Besides this, Ioannes Pragensis, how you know that they asked me to be admin? You can speak Serbian? PANONIAN (talk) 15:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
No, but I can speak Czech. I told you, that we are sister nations. "Zašto se ne nominuješ za admina? Mislim da bi prošao." can be translated "Proč se nenominuješ za admina? Myslím, že by to prošlo." :-) No special linguistic ability needed to understand.
And thank you for your response. I share your love to freedom. (And besides, after some time, if you change your mind and become less oriented towards the ideological problems, I would probably support your RfA.) Greetings, --Ioannes Pragensis 08:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unspecified source for Image:Ossetia.jpg

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[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Ossetia.jpg

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[edit] Vojvodjanska zastava

E, naucio sam da stavljam tagove za autorska dela! Obelezio sam zastavu, konacno. Pogledaj je. Pozdrav!Zhix 12:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Zenta

Do not move the historical names from articles. Did you hear about Battle of Pravdinsk? And about Battle of Friedland? Friedland is today Pravdinsk, but...Geography isn't history.Luftburger 17:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I am going fain. What an argument. Are you ill?Luftburger 20:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dukes in Vojvodina

Hi! You seem to have had some major involvement in the articles about Salan, Glad, Sermon and Ahtum, so I'd like to discuss them with you. Clearly, the First Bulgarian Empire under Simeon the Great (893-927) ruled over these lands (and the lands to the north in modern Transylvania and all of Hungary east of the Danube), so these nobles were local Bulgarian rulers (of course, their ethnicity is a very complicated issue, so we leave it aside). Does the Gesta Hungarorum refer to them as vassals or simply regional governors of Simeon's empire (since that seems more logical)?

Also, I've added them all (+ Menumorut) to Category:Bulgarian nobility and Category:History of Bulgaria, hope you have no objections. I believe the Ahtum article fails to mention him also being subordinate to the Bulgarian Empire (whether Simeon, Peter or later Samuil), and the other articles seem to emphasize on the people being regional rulers and not vassals or local governors, so this should also be stressed as well.

Another thing, this map and this map make it look as if Salan, Glad, Sermon and Ahtum's domains don't belong to the Bulgarian Empire, when in fact they do. In contrast, this one's fine.

Anyway, I'd like to ask you to comment before making any of these changes since there may be other POVs or I may be wrong about something. Thanks in advance :) Todor→Bozhinov 12:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Ahtum's role can be explained by the situation in Bulgaria in the early 11th century — except for the significant but short-lived expansion under Samuil, the empire was torn by internal conflicts, Kievan and Byzantine invasions, and, naturally, the more remote territories couldn't have been effectively controllled, so Ahtum was probably de facto an independent ruler while being de jure subordinate to the Bulgarian Empire (though the empire wasn't able to assert control over its core and main cities, what to say about Vojvodina, so that was only in theory :))
As for Salan and Glad, they probably had quite extensive autonomy, but were most likely appointed by the tsar and didn't pay any tribute to him, so I think they weren't exactly vassals.
Regarding Sermon, he indeed seems to have briefly assumed some sort of independent control over his domain after Bulgaria was conquered, but the Byzantines didn't let him continue any resistance.
I'm glad you'd correct the maps to make them more clear and detailed, and thanks for all the maps you've contributed to Wikipedia :)

Todor→Bozhinov 15:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh, see that — sr:Сермон. Your compatriots seem to support the fringe theory that Samuil was a 'Macedonian Tsar' that ruled over a 'Slavic Empire' and totally deny the NPOV principle. Todor→Bozhinov 15:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I like the maps now! The solution regarding Ahtum is very clever (this one also shows his domain outside the Bulgarian borders during Samuil). By the way, you could make the maps even better by adding the names of the rivers, as well as some principal cities (at least the capitals) of these domains — people who are not familiar with the geography of the region may have trouble recognizing it that way. Anyway, it's just an idea.
I know there's a different, Serbian and Macedonian view on the reign of Samuil and his empire, but foreign scientists regard it only as an alternative theory and stick to the more established version that he was a Bulgarian tsar. The Serbian article on Samuil seems to treat the two versions as equal (which they're not, but it's better than calling him only Macedonian), but it's ridiculous to refer to Samuil only as a Macedonian tsar on sr:Сермон — at least, the article has to note that he's regarded as a Macedonian tsar in the countries of the former Yugoslavia, and not by the international science. Todor→Bozhinov 18:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
You've done a great job with the maps! I tried to change the Serbian Wikipedia article to say 'бугарског цара Саумила', but was reverted. Now i removed the 'македонског' part and didn't add anything, explaining in horrible Serbian that there's an article on the topic presenting both POVs, so one should decide for himself. Hope it survives :) Todor→Bozhinov 14:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Petrovaradin

Ne kapiram zašto si izbrisao moje promene ???

Mislim da sam baš lepo sredio text, da izgleda lepše...

Podaci za broj stanovnika su iz registra stanovništva iz 2005 [5], a mapa lokacije grada je Novi Sad (grad), u kojoj se nalazi i Petrovaradin. Maja Gojković gradonačelnik grada Novog Sada (čega je Petrovaradin deo). Kao što sam sredio text delovima Petrovaradina, za koje ne treba da ima poveznica, kada text o tome ne postoji, a kako bude lako je prepraviti to vremenom. --Goran.Smith2 17:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

podaci su iz stanja registra, iz biračkog spiska i potpuno su tačni, nisu neki levi podaci. Ja sam napisao za gradonačelnika napomenu, a gradovi u Srbiji nemaju gradonačelnike, već samo predsenike opština... stoga bi i šablone trebalo menjati --Goran.Smith2 17:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Ovi podaci su tačni, zar nije normalnije da koristimo najnovije podatke. Bolje je da imamo što svežije podatke --Goran.Smith2 23:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WPFY has a new look!

Check out WP:FY. If you wish, you can add {{WPFY}} to your user or talk page to keep in touch with the project. Zocky | picture popups 17:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

I read your archive on Serbian Wiki,and I saw you had problems with local history. Well, maybe you should read more history books. These are your words. Geography ... You mixed up the location of two Žedniks on the map of Subotica municipality, and when you draw the maps try to be precise - Mala Bosna lies on the straight line between Bajmok and Subotica.Let's try to solve the problem of national identity for 21th century. Bendeguz 11:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

You had problems with places in Sajkaska Region. Novi Zednik lies between Cantavir and Zednik, and Mala Bosna between Bajmok and Subotica.Check it. (Encarta World Atlas and Microsoft AutoRoute) Bendeguz 16:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Novo Goražde?

Hi,

I found your article Novo Goražde. Isn't the official name Ustiprača? That name is used on the list at Municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina. --Ante Perkovic 14:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I tried to find official names for all the municipalities few months ago (for the purpose of hr.wikipedia) and I know how hard it is I don't know if RS site is good source. I know that there were some disputes between them and central govrernment regarding municipality names and some RS decisions have been rebuted. Anyway, we need someone find out the most reliable source and clear all the inconsistencies related to all municipalities. --Ante Perkovic 19:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

List with official names of muncipalities in Republic of Srpska can be found in web site of government of RS. Confusion is because of decision of Constitutional Court of BiH that names like ie. Srpska Ilidza are against the constitution. Since government of RS was not prompt in changing those names, Court imposed temporary names, ie. Kasindo for former Srpska Ilidza. Those provisional names were changed when assembley of RS made new law. Those names can be found in governments site. Therefore you have three names for some muncipalities, ie Srpska Ilidza - Kasindo - Istocna Ilidza.

[edit] Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina

Could you please slow down with the unilateral creation of these categories related to the Federation? You have opened up a big can of worms with this action. You should have discussed the matter first. This will inevitably lead to huge revert wars between Bosniak and Serb users. And if I were to take a side I'd side with the Bosniaks, although I'm going to to try and approach this civilly, which I can't guarantee of others. Let's be reasonable, the entities largely have the same culture, history, geography, etc. No one can change that by slapping a bunch of clumsy cats onto 90% of the Bosnian articles. Input welcome. --Thewanderer 01:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


Panonian, I am tempted to go through a number of articles where you have added categories noting histories of RS and FBiH without carefull consideration to articles that have nothing to do with these categories historically. For example how do you justify adding Evlija Celebija's Sejahatname to RS history when RS history dates back 10 years and Elvija lived in the 17th century. In same respect you added FBiH history category to Hamdija Pozderac article while man, beside the fact that he had nothing to do with FBiH nor did he ever envisioned it, died before the FBiH was ever created. I also see that you have been warned above for same reasons. Please keep me in the loop. --Dado 02:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


Panonian, mješaš namjenu kategorije i namjenu sadržaja članaka. Kategorije služe da se umreže članci koji dijele neke od osnovnih zajedničke karakteristika a po meni npr. Branko Mikulić i Federacija BiH nemaju baš ništa zajedničko ni vremenski ni karakterno. Ja bi se vjerovatno složio da se sve slavenske kategorije izbace iz članka Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum jer je očito da se više radi o rimskoj historiji i da se Hrvatska, Bosanska i Srpska historija ne preklapa, mada neznam previše detalja o tome i nisam siguran. Na kraju specifično za kategorizaciju FBiH i RS. Pa zar nije kad se postavi kategorija BiH da to podrazumjeva ova dva entiteta. FBiH i RS kategorije se mogu koristiti za vrlo specifične stvari koje su se desile od njihovog osnivanja do danas mada ni tada neznam kako neko može smatrati zadnjih 10-15 historijom. To je u najboljem slučaju bliža historija ili nešto što se tek nedavno dogodilo čije posljedice se još osjete i koje još nisu prošle kroz kritiku tradicionalne historije. --Dado 23:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ja mislim da sam već to rekao ali da ponovim, historija RS i FBiH je neodvojiva od historije BiH pa samim tim postavljanje dodatnih kategorija na članke koji već sadrže kategoriju BiH je potpuno nepotrebna i čak neprimjerna jer sugeriše da su RS i FBiH nešto potpuno drugo od BiH. Ovo naročito dolazi do izražaja na člancima koji očigledno vremenski nemaju ništa sa ova dva entiteta. --Dado 02:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Svakako da clanci koji se iskljucivo ticu historije RS trebaju biti pod tom kategorijom. Iako je malo takvih clanaka zbog cinjenice koju sam vec naveo da historija entiteta je duga 10-15 godina i tesko da bilo sta sto se dogodilo u tom vremenu se moze smatrati historijom. Vojvodina i Kosovo imaju daleko duzu historiju kao sto i BiH ima dugu tako da su i ti primjeri neprilagodjeni. Jedan primjer clanka koji bi mozda bio dio recimo historije RS-a je clanak Vojska Republike Srpske. Zbog toga nisam sasvim protiv da se ugase ove kategorije ali ja jos uvijek ne shvatam kakvu ti vezu vidis izmedju Evlije Celebije i RS ili Stjepana Tomasevica i FBiH. Jedinu stvar sto vidim u ovoj kategorizaciji je otudjivanje i/ili relativizacija Historije BiH u kojem kontekstu kako karakternom tako i vremenskom su ova dva lica postojala i jedino pripadaju. Toliko od mene. Pozdrav--Dado 03:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


"Konkrektna veza Evlije Čelebije i RS je ta što je on pisao o tom području," Netacno, Evlija Celebija nije pisao o Republici Srpskoj niti je ikada mogao predvidjeti da ce RS i postojati pa se to nije ni odrazavalo na njegov rad. On je zivio u vrijeme kad je postojala Bosna I Hercegovina koja se teritorijalno I kulturoloski narocito odrazavala na njegov rad. Takodjer Stjepan Tomasevic je vladao Bosnom a ne FBiH kao politickim I historijskim subjektom. Clanak Drina Banovina nema puno veze sa historijom BiH ali ima sigurno vise nego sto RS ima sa tim clankom prvenstveno zato sto je BiH dijelom postojala na tom teritoriju I prije Drina Banovine sto ti ocito neispravno odbijas da priznas.

S druge strane nije ni svaka osoba ili pojam vrijedna svrstavanja u cjelokupnu historiju nekog politickog uredjenja. Npr Nikola Tesla je ponajmanje dio historije SAD-a (da nekazem Hrvatske ili Jugoslavije) iako je u njoj zivio I umro. Tesla se ponajvise svrstava u Historiju Nauke ili Historiju Fizike ili Historiju Elektronike. Mislim da si ti u svojoj slijepoj zelji da opravdas teritorijalni subjektivitet RS-a kroz prisvojavanje licnosti iz historije BiH zapravo jednostavno izgubio koncept da mnogi ljudi ili pojmovi jednostavno ne pripadaju u taj a neki ni u jedan teritorijalno-historijski okvir.

Samim tim Bosanske piramide najvise pripadaju kategoriji arheologije a tek u drugom ili trecem krugu Historiji BiH (I eventualno FBiH) jer je za vrijeme postojanja tog politickog uredjenja otkrivena. Mada licno mislim da ta piramida jos nije spremna da udje u historiju bilo cega. --Dado 19:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Dakle tvoj cilj, efektivno kroz priznavanje i potporu nezavisnosti RS-a, je unistenje Bosne i Hercegovine, jedine medjunardno i pravno priznate drzave na tom teritoriju koja ima subjektivitet dug skoro 1000 godina. Nek smo i to razjasnili i perspektivu iz koje radis na ovoj Wikipediji a samim tim i na kategorijama u pitanju.--Dado 16:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] O bici

A.Leopold I je bio krunisani kralj Madjarske kao i svi austrijski carevi od 1526. godine (osim Josipa II kojeg su zbog toga podrugljivo zvali kalapos király- kralj sa sesirom-kralj bez krune) pa je svoje pravo na te teritorije polagao kao kralj Kraljevine Madjarske.

B.Posle te bitke jedino je Banat ostao pod turskom vlascu, pa se u madjarskoj istoriografiji na tu bitku gleda kao na oslobodjenje Madjarske od Turaka.

C.Izgleda subjektivno ali ima istine-Madjari je vise osecaju svojom nego Srbi (spomenik, proslava 300. godisnjice, pozivanje na nju) pa je cak zabelezeno da je slika Franca Ajzenhuta “Bitka kod Sente” koja se nalazi u Velikoj sali Zupanije u Somboru za dlaku izbegla unistenje- sudbinu mnogih slika i spomenika te prelomne 1918. godine na tlu danasnje Vojvodine.

Je li dovoljno? Bendeguz 21:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cities?

Orahov Do, Kravica ... these are no cities. Those are just small vilages. Last war put them on the map, not number of people living there or something like that. --Ante Perkovic 22:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Jel ima netko ovdje tko bi radio neki konstrktivan poao, tipa odjeljivanja gradova i sela. Koliko vidim, svima vama ovdje je gust radit samo ono sto moze iznervirat nekog iz suprtonog klana ;). --Ante Perkovic 22:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Syrmia.png

Ova slika ti ne valja, nije cela vukovarsko-sremska županija deo Srema. Granice Srema su do Vinkovaca, Vinkovci i istočno od njiga, kao i Županja.. to je već istočna Slavonija :) --Goran.Smith2 15:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ja sam tamo odrastao, i cela familija mi još živi u Vinkovcima. Znam da u političkom smisliu da je to deo Srema, ali po nekim priridnim granicama ... Vinkovci i istočno od Vinkovaca se računa istočna Slavonija, a već predgrađe Vk, MIrkovci su prirodno u Sremu... neki potok prolazi između koji je granica (znam da malo glupo zvuči, hehe). Pa za VK još mžeš reći da je tu negde, ali Županja.. to je baš Slavonija :)

btw super ti je tekst o Sremu :)--Goran.Smith2 19:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, ma ne moras menjati, ali, samo da znaš.. u tom kraju vlada mišljenje da je granica Srema i Slavonije: "According to another interpretation, the border follows the Bosut, Barica and Vuka rivers" ...tako da Vinkovčani i istočnije u Vukovarsko-Sremskoj županiji tvrde da nisu u Sremu, vec u Slavoniji. --Goran.Smith2 01:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Banat

Hi!

Let me start by saying I agree with your point, and I won't revert again. I only reverted your revert in the first place because I didn't feel your reasons were sound, given the original summary; that has been clarified now.

However, while still agreeing with your reasoning on my talk page, I still think geographical context is needed at the top of the article. I honestly don't want the Romanian Banat map to be shown proeminently there, but IMHO it's the easiest recognizable map in the article. I want to be perfectly clear on this: once we have a map of the region showing Banat, I'd positively push for that to replace my current proposal (by "map of the region" I mean a map of Romania, Serbia and Hungary).

What say you? --Gutza T T+ 01:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the map you proposed on my talk page is perfect! Great job, I really think it's a great addition to the article! --Gutza T T+ 08:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Palilula

Pogledao sam, dve su bile na pogresnom mestu, ostalo je ok. Pozdrav PajaBG 18:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Novi Sad

broj stanovnika,

Chak sam stavio i !!!LINK!!! ka pokazatelju broja stanovnika... Sajt Informatike prema broju biracha 2005. Nije bash prava stvar ali skoro kao da jeste. Stavicu to bar u nezvanichne procene. SSJ 5 17:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ekologija

PANONIAN, mogu li da napišem članak o maloj organizaciji čiji sam član? Piše da je zabranjeno stavljati članke o sebi, prijateljima, svojim firmama i proizvodima. To je Ekološko društvo. Da li je u redu? User:Stefanmg 19:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


Sačekaću malo... Bićemo u časopisu Ljubav za životinje. Valjda ćemo tada biti dovoljno poznati. Mogu napisati i članak o časopisu.

[edit] Image:Orthodox-Church-in-Banja-Luka.jpg

Молим те, погледај ову слику и њену лиценцу. Онај упорно покушава да је дискредитује упркос мом настојању да опстане. Да ли би могао да реагујеш адекватним аргументима. Хвала. --Pockey 22:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vojlovica

Ako imas malo vremena navrati na Vojlovica, Pančevo, stranicu mozda ima sta za "popravku". Hvala

László (talk) 19:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] adding categories

Hello there, I will now revert your adding of categories Category:People from Republika Srpska and Category:People from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the articles which are on my watchlist (I will not engage in Wikistalking, I will just revert those that are on my watchlist) which fall in one of following groups:

  • the person died before those entities were created, so they can't be from it
  • the person left Bosnia and Herzegovina before those entities were created, so they can't be from it

I repeat: I will not remove people who really lived in those entities, just those which didn't. --Dijxtra 21:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hvala

Hvala na mapi opštine Bačka Palanka. Staviću je kod svih sela koja editujem. Sad radim na Karađorđevu. Tu ću da premestim Titovu sliku. User:Stefanmg 16:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Evo, počeo sam da dopunjavam... Već sam završio Mladenovo. Gde nalaziš podatke sa popisa stanovništva? Ja imam knjigu sa podacima iz 1991. Treba mi 2002... User:Stefanmg 18:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marienfeld=Vojlovica i Gisellaheim

Na vojnim mapama od pre prvog svetskog rata, imam napisano Hertelendyfalva (Marianfeld), takodje sam pronasao Opovo (Königsdorf), Rudolfsgnad (Knićanin) i Belo Blato (Etisenhaim). Belo Blato ima nekoliko varijanti koje sam pronasao u raznim dokumentima a pominju se u kontekstu ovog naseljavanja, Eisenhaim, Elisenhaim a cak je i moj deda, secam se govorio Bélablata za Belo Blato. Ono "a" u nazivu se na srpskom izgovara i veoma je blizu kao kada kazes "o". Najbliza mesta sa slicnim imenima sam pronasao u Rumuniji i to 1.nem-Giseladorf, rum-Ghizela, Timis i za 2.nem-Marienfeld, rum-Teremia Mare. Ali ta mesta su toliko udaljena od mesta ovih dogadjaja, a i Dunava, da je vise nego ocigledno da ne mogu biti ista. Prema dokumentima kojim ja raspolazem Gisellaheim vise i ne postoji, (slicno kao i Djurdjevo) sto je i slucaj sa Marienfeldom. Godinu dve su bili na lokaciji pa su premesteni i dobili nova imena. ----László (talk) 18:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slike

Ako si mislio na slike koje su u clanku o Beogradu, njih sam bas sinoc planirao da ubacim u odgovarajuce krajeve ali mi se prispavalo :o) Ako mislis uopste na sve slike u vezi Beograda sa Vikipedije, ne znam kako se slike pretrazuju PajaBG 14:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Ipak je Gymnasium (mada je to vec pisalo tako; ja koristim high school da bi se odmah znalo o cemu se radi). Vebsterova definicija: gymnasium 1 a room or building equipped for physical training and athletic games and sports 2 [G-] in Germany and some other European countries, a secondary school for students preparing to enter a university.
A sto se tice FDU, on je Fakultet DramskIH Umetnosti, a i sam fakultet koristi Faculty of Dramatic Arts na svom sajtu. Pozdrav PajaBG 00:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

PANNONIAN, molim te napiši demographics za gradove u opštini BP. Kao što sam rekao, nemam podatke iz 2002, a logično je da stavljamo novije podatke. Stefanmg 17:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Otišao sam dole da ručam, pa sam zaboravio da dopišem kad sam se vratio. Evo dopuniću. Oni su se naselili u Obrovcu. Stefanmg 10:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] License tagging for Image:Retnikai.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Retnikai.jpg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 14:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Filipowa and Bački Gračac

I notice that you have created a new article, Bački Gračac, and have turned Filipowa into a redirect. May I suggest that in the future that you use the move function? That way, the revision history and the talk page of the article will be retained by the "new" article. The way you did it, editors will not realize that there was another previous version of the article. If you aren't sure how to use the "move" function, please see Help:Moving a page. Agent 86 21:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jews in Serbia

Hi Panonian -- thanks for the edits and graphics on the Jews in Serbia page! AWN2 AWN2 07:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello again -- just got your message on the Statistics! Thank you so much (хвала?) -- I will read the document and include the stats in the article! Cheers, AWN AWN2 07:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shopi

Hi! I saw your edits to the Shopi article. I know the regional group and name are also used in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia, and currently the article only deals with the group in Bulgaria. Do you have any information to add (or web sources?), so we could also cover the use of the name in these two countries as well? If not, it may be better to rename it Shopi (Bulgaria) or something like that and remove the categories you'v added. Tell me what you think about it. Todor→Bozhinov 17:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South Slavs

Great job on that one! I had the ambitious idea to start it some day and had even tried once, and it would have mostly looked the way you've planned it. Have you considered a Culture section? It may turn out to be a nice thing, since we have a lot in common generally in terms of that. Also, you sure about Serbs and Croats being 'West Slavs' initially? I'd never heard it as a theory before (though I've heard of them possibly being of non-Slavic origin, which I don't deem any plausible, but anyway). At least you should cite the source about it and mention the other theories (if they're also popular and established).

Anyway, hope we could collaborate nicely on that article! Todor→Bozhinov 22:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Senta i Sonta

Vratio sam tvoje izmene kod Sente i Sonte jer se "dablink" stavlja kad su imena potpuno ista, a ne kad se razlikuju za jedno slovo. PANONIAN (talk) 14:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

To sam i ja mislio, ali sam ovu primenu video u clanku Ryan Adams i mislim da je od koristi. U principu, vrlo se lako da pobrkati, oba su mesta u Vojvodini, ne vidim da skodi.

Pozdrav, Vitriden 15:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pannonian Rusyns/Muslims by nationality

Hi, can you help us settle the dispute on TALK:Pannonian Rusyns and TALK:Muslims by nationality? Thanks.

[edit] category/organization question

Sorry to bother you, but it seems you have been around long to enough to have a good answer :) I'm trying find out best category for the List of Serbian NBA players article, just so it doesn't fall off anyone's radar who's interesting in maintaining Serbia related articles. I was thinking of using [[Category:Serbian basketball players]] but it seems that was meant for a person, not a list. I also have used this category in the Group Seven stub, but perhaps it's not appropriate there either. --Lowg 22:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Panonian --Lowg 23:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wikiProject

PANONIAN, šta treba da uradim da bih postao deo WikiProject Serbia? Stefanmg (talk) 10:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trianon in Transylvania talk page

hi panonian, i would ask u permision to move your comment on the talk page of Transylvania regarding to Trianon a paragraph up, as it is now it looks like a response to Gesta Hungarorum Criztu 12:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rit vechi

Old Believers - I'm 99% sure that the name "de rit vechi" (lit.: "of old ritual") is not used in any other context. It's confusing, because the only Old Believers Romanians ever refer to are the Lipovans - they tend to ignore the rest, and usually translate "Old Believer" as "Lipovean". But it would make sense that this Banat community is of Old Believers, wouldn't it? Dahn 13:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, that's a cool map on Krashovani. However, may I ask if you would consider renaming it "South Slavs in the Romanian Banat" or "in Southwestern Romania"? After all, it does not cover Bulgarian communities in Dobruja, around Bucharest, or in Transylvania. Dahn 17:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Hm. I see. My main concern was that it may be misleading for the casual reader (I tend to believe, for example, that the Serb population of Timişoara is more than all those localities put together...). Perhaps if you make the map header more specific, on the lines you mentioned: "Localities of Romania with South Slavic (South Slav?) majority". What do you think? Dahn 21:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Perfect from my perspective.Many thanks. Dahn 22:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Yep, the map is great, thanks for adding it to Banat Bulgarians. I like Dahn's suggestions and have one more idea — it would be very useful if you added the municipalities where South Slavs form more than 5/10/20% (you choose) of the population in hachures. For the Banat Bulgarians these are, in addition to Dudeştii Vechi, also Denta in Timiş County(18.98%[6]) and Vinga in Arad County (8.01%[7]). Todor→Bozhinov 21:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the first one is probably Clisura Dunării (please copy-paste the name, as the diacritic is easily mistaken for others). I am almost certain, and would be 100% sure if you were to answer yes to whether the region is around that weird bend the Danube makes just before the Romanian-Bulgarian border, and if klisura means something like "narrow pass" in Serbian. If it is indeed Clisura Dunării, the article should probably have an English title, as does the one for the Danube Delta - it refers to a characteristic of the Danube as a river (that it goes into a "narrow pass" or something like that - I do not know the standard translation for the word clisura, and cannot seem to find it). As for the second name, I have never heard of it - that may be because the name in Romanian version is obscure and/or entirely different; I would go with the Serbian name.

I also have some info available about Serbian presence in medieval and early modern Wallachia to add to Serbs in Romania. Dahn 03:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I refined my search for the first one, and it is definitely Clisura Dunării (although I missed its location originally). I still cannot tell you what it is in English though... Dahn 04:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm using the same source as you (http://www.edrc.ro/), so I, too, am only relying on municipality data. The maps of the Hungarian minority are great, something like this one (but on municipality and not county level) would be simply perfect, although I agree it would be more difficult to make. Anyway, it's not really necessary for now, the current map suits the articles perfectly. Todor→Bozhinov 11:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] request for comment

I really do not want to waste your time on a fairly insignificant issue, but if you have any free time I would like to know what your opinion is regarding which flag to use in current UEFA football competions to represent the Serbian teams participating. See the UEFA CL talk page for more. --Lowg 22:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spasava ili spašava?

Idi na http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Only_Unity_Saves_the_Serbs#Spa.C5.A1ava_ili_Spasava.3F Stefanmg 14:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clisura

According to the link you provided (which is trustworthy enough for such reference, but I would not trust it for anything else) "it extends from Baziaş to Gura Văii according to some, or to the so-called Cazane[le Dunării] according to others". Cazanele Dunării (don't know what they are called by Serbs) [8] are the gorge situated between the mouths of the Plavisevica (south) and Ogradena Rivers (north). Dahn 15:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I edited the article a bit: "municipality" has a more specific meaning in Romanian, and the term does not apply to any of the localities as such; I have linked Illyr to "South Slav" (the alternative would have been "Illyrian movement" - which I guess would be innacurate) - I suppose the vagueness of the term was intended by the Austrians (and probably welcomed by Serbs at the time). Do you happen to know how "klisura" translates into English? Thanks. Dahn 16:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, you're right. What I meant to do was to provide a link for the term "Illyr" - perhaps a "cf. Illyria; the term was in use as a designation of Serbs or South Slavs in general"? I certainly didn't mean to indicate that the population was not Serb, hope you didn't read that into it - it's just that the reference is cryptical for the uninformed user. Thanks for the term (no dictionary provided the proper term for "clisură"); I think we should move the article to "Danube Gorge" - it seems that the variant is the most used in English sources. Dahn 17:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Please excuse me: I had deleted the "(Serb)" part after "Illyrian" by sheer mistake. It's just now I noticed. If I made any other error, feel free to correct it directly. Thanks. Dahn 17:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jezik

Je li ti maternji jezik srpski ili srpskohrvatski. Ne može oba dva.--Jolo,7. kolovoza 2006.,10:17

To su samo dva imena za jedan jezik, nema tu razlike. PANONIAN (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry, I Keep Forgetting...

This is a message made by The Runescape Junkie logged in as 207.69.139.13 20:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC). Anyways, I keep forgetting that they use Serbian in the Republic instead of Bosnian. But, when I was in Modriča, I heard most of the people speaking jekavski rather than ekavski, like hljeb instead of hleb. Maybe they were from the Federation... hmm, just thought I'd say that. But you're right, they use Serbian in the RS rather than Bosnian. Oh, and for the record, I keep confusing Č and Ć lol. Cheers!

Izvini! Izvini! Izvini ako sam te napravijo ljut! I izvini ako nemogu Bosanski (ili Srpski i Hrvatski) spelovat dobro! Nije mi gramatika dobra! Ali šta ću raditi?!
Oh, and now back to English. Sorry, I forgot to put the "l" in front of jekavski. I'm feeling pretty stupid now. But see, I came to America when I was young, and I already knew Bosnian and German, but then I forgot German from speaking English in school and when my friends came over to my house. Then I started getting poorer in Bosnian 6 months after I came to the USA. But now, I'm speaking it fluently, but I just have a few spelling and gramatical errors. Sorry for me giving you my life story. Well, cheers!
Još jedan pitanje: jel misliš da će se i čak Vojvodina razdovijit(i[?])? The Runescape Junkie 02:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


Hvala... The Runescape Junkie 19:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plitvice Lakes (municipality)

Hi Panonian, you changed Croatian War of Independence to war in Croatia. While I understand the possible reasons behind this, I need to point out that the name of the article is indeed Croatian war of independence. There was a straw poll about this (see Talk:Croatian War of Independence). Hope you are doing well. Regards, EAsterion u talking to me? 20:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean and fully agree with the point you make and with HRE's distintion drawn on the talk page a while back. My problem is with the possible consecuences of heating up things and maybe annoying some Croatian editor. Perhaps we should bring up the debate to the Talk:Croatian War of Independence page? Cheers, E Asterion u talking to me? 21:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I've been away from former Yugoslavia articles for a while. I was unaware of this. I simply noticed as I had this article on my watchlist as I wrote the original stub. I just realised you have brought the POV title issue up in the talk page. I think this makes sense. Thanks, E Asterion u talking to me? 21:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some of your edits

Maybe you can clarify something for me; is "War in Croatia" more palatable to you than "Croatian War of Independence" simply because it obfuscates why the war was being fought, or is there a legitimate reason for the change? Mihovil 02:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. Mihovil 03:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magyarisation

I added load of text there. You can add about the serbians as well.--Latinitas 13:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 25 000

Hi, please give your references about this number, because the lowest estimate of Hungarian historians is 250 000. Zello 13:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Help

I want to write article about Serbs in Hungary. Do you know some website where I can find data how many Serbs live in Hungary according to last census? PANONIAN (talk) 12:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You could start here. This is the page where all the 2001 census data related to minorities in Hungary can be reached. For your future reference, statistical data related to Hungary are generally to be found somewhere on ksh.hu, the site of the Central Statistical Office - I found the above page by following a link there. Good luck with your article, KissL 14:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
By the way, maybe it's time to archive some of your talkpage... KissL 14:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
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