Talk:Panelák

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Contents 1 Shouldn't it be renamed? 2 Paradox 3 My opinion, how should this article look 4 Removed italics 5 Revert 6 Satelite dishes 7 same builidings in other countries 8 "Soviet" inventions 9 Panelák, what a cool English term

[edit] Shouldn't it be renamed?

Shouldn't it be renamed? Panelak is word in foreign language that likely has no associations in English. Pavel Vozenilek 23:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I do not think so. I have heard English people using it. Juro 22:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have heard English people talking Czech, does that mean that we can write Czech on English wikipedia? --Josef Sábl cz 10:46, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Anyway a photo would be the best. Do you have some? Pavel Vozenilek 22:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Of course not :), but in the German de:Petrzalka article, there is a picture of Petrzalka, maybe we could use it...Juro 23:26, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article surely is double for Tower block. I would suggest to merge it... And I don't think that this word (panelák) settled in english enough to be considered an english word. I would recommend renaming it to: Tower block so we get back to problem of merging... --Josef Sábl cz 10:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pánelaky and tower blocks are not the same thing. "Pánelak" refers specifically to apartment buildings made of prefabricated concrete in the former Czechoslovakia. A modern high-rise apartment building in Chicago would not be a pánelak, nor would a similar building in Prague. As far as the name goes, everybody in the English-speaking expat community in Prague calls them pánelaky. Of course, most English speakers outside of Central Europe don't know the word, but that's why we've put it into the encyclopedia. Mwalcoff 18:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please, take a look at this page. It is not an article about buildings in Chicago it is an article about "Panelák". An equivalent of word Panelák is Tower Block in english, just face it. You don't mean that there need to be separate article for each architecture type of tower block, I hope cuz it is ridiculous:-) Předpokládám, že umíš česky, když mluvíš o panelákách ;-), je to to samé, jako kdybys vedle artiklu "Music" založil artikl "Hudba" protože česká hudba je jiná než zahraniční... Promiň, ale kdyby se takhle choval každej, vznikne tady pěknej bordel. Když už, udělej na stránce Tower block kapitolu Czech "Panelak" a vysvětli důvod, proč jsou české tower bloky jiné než v jiných zemích (Jestli tedy vidíš rozdíl, já ne ;-) --Josef Sábl cz 20:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to the "Tower block" article, a tower block is "a high-rise apartment building." That says nothing about prefabrication, which is the essence of a panelak. The Lake Point Tower is a "tower block" but certainly no panelak. Mwalcoff 10:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, in Tower block article in See also section there is link to prefabrication and there is picture of prefab (panelak)... but OK, maybe that just that article is wrong and you are right... than I vote for changing name of this article to Prefab as it is english equivalent for Panelak... also picture of Panelaks of Petrzalka is not good as there is no visible panelak at all :) maybe some picture from Most article can be used or I can make some pictures with my camera as I live in prefab ;) --Josef Sábl cz 10:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The tower block article has a link to prefabrication in the "See also" section. That's because some tower blocks are prefabricated. If their article is confusing to you, perhaps the tower block article writers need to make it clearer.

I would recommend against adopting the name "prefab" for this article. All of us English-speaking expats in the CR call those buildings "panelaks" or "panelaky." I've never heard someone refer to "a prefab." The only English-language equivalent of "panelak" would be something awkward like "prefabricated apartment buildings in the former Czechoslovakia."

Finally, if people object to the Petrzalka photo, I've got a shot of panelaky in Kamyk we could use, although I personally find the Petrzalka picture OK.

Well OK, I've searched internet and pages concerning panelaks and found no pages about prefabs.

Perzalka photo looks nice but prefabs can be seen only in the distance. --Josef Sábl cz 15:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I put the Petrzalka photo here because and only because it was available immediatelly. Other photo (of Petrzalka) exists on German Wiki but I didn't like it and was too lazy anyway. Please feel completely free to insert better picture(s). Pavel Vozenilek 18:46, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely, it is good that this picture is there. The more there are the better :-) I just suggested to add another picture with more detailed view of building.

Thanks for your interest in the article. Mwalcoff 19:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion use of these buildings in Czechoslovakia is so important that it deserves article of its own. Also puting countries specific informations into one page makes such page (a) unmaintainable, (b) unreadable. Pavel Vozenilek 20:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. In addition, panelák should be conceived as a prefab tower block in (former) Czechoslovakia, that's a slight shift in meaning. Juro 00:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No fajn, jestli je tak zvlast dulezity pouziti panelaku v Cechach, at se ten clanek jmenuje "Pouziti panelaku v Cechach" nebo "Era stavby panelaku v Cechach". Kazdopadne ten clanek jak je takhle, je hrozna hovadina. Minimalne v tom, ze Panelak je i v cestine nespisovny slovo, melo by to bejt Panelovy dum. Ale OK, je vas vic, tak budiz po Vasem ;-) --Josef Sábl cz 10:28, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Anyway article surely should be renamed to something in English, what if some russia commrade would like to rename it to something in azbuka... he has same right to do it as you have to name it "Panelák", we work on English version of wikipedia so it should be in English... Navíc, když do česko anglickýho slovníku zadáte slovo Panelák, vyleze vám Prefab --Josef Sábl cz 10:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I know a lot of English people who use the term "panelak" as a specific term. Juro 19:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IMHO (or not that humble -- being a native Czech living for couple of years in USA, I have some experience), the proper translation of panelák into English is "project", which actually has its own Wikipedia article -- project. This picture

A local authority tower block in Cwmbrân, South Wales

looks to me really like a Czech panelák. Moreover, it is really non-sense to make this into separate article, because there is nothing that specific in Czech paneláks (not only that they were all over the former Soviet block, but French, American, or any other projects are not that different -- as building). The only specific (correctly mentioned in the article) is that in former Communist countries projects were not only for poor, and there is no stigma attached on living there. So, I would suggest to rename this article into "Projects in the former Czechoslovakia" (translated "Panelový dům" -- panelák is really colloquial).

The projects as a derisive, slangy term for public housing is exclusively American English. They don't call them that in the UK, although young people might have picked up the term from TV. In addition, most Americans would only refer to "ghetto" public housing as "the projects;" the newer, mixed-income publicly subsidized homes wouldn't get the moniker.

I wouldn't say public housing is the same all over the world. They did build some buildings similar to panelaks in the U.S., but they aren't the same thing, and the story behind them is certainly very different from the story of panelaky. However, the panel apartment buildings of the former Czechoslovakia are probably little different from those built elsewhere in the Soviet Bloc.

I'm all for expanding this article and renaming it Public housing of the Soviet Bloc or something, but I'm only familiar with the former Czechoslovakia. -- Mwalcoff 04:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Plattenbau is the DDR equivalent of Panelák and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it in this discussion. Given that this is the English Wikipedia, I would suggest combining Plattenbau and Panelák into a new article by the name of 'Panel house' (created 2006-01-13 by Darwinek), and redirecting Panelák, Plattenbau, Panelka, Panelház and other country-specific forms to the main article. After all, there isn't that much difference between Panel houses of different countries. I'm from Hungary myself, where the landscape is dotted by the same types of buildings. —UED77 07:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way, there is apparently an article at Commieblock as well. These pages really need to be merged. —UED77 07:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. IMO there should be general overview article and leaf articles on individual countries, where applicable.

Strong oppose regarding the proposed merger. There are many country-specific pieces of information related to prefabricated tower blocks, such as the ones already included on the Czech version of the page. I suggest to remove the merge template JanSuchy 19:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paradox

I wanted to adopt an idea that these buildings should be called Panelaks, than I came across this paradox:

1) Panelaks had not been built only in Czechoslovakia but in all socialistic states during era of communism: Russia, Poland, Germany, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia.

2) If we want to preserve term panelak we should describe it as Czechoslovakian type of some kind of building that was build in other countries as well (I suggest term prefab for now) and there should be an article desrcibing this "regular" prefab.

3) But!!! an idea of prefab comes from prefabrication and prefabs all across Europe (especially in post-communistic countries) are completely identical because they are made after one Russian design.

4) So now we have two articles panelak and prefab. But like I said, they are identical and both articles are identical as well. Is there any sense making such nonsense:-)

I'm asking you:

Q Is panelak article about a) Czechoslovakian panelaks or b) Europewide prefabs

a) Please read paradox thing again and remove pictures of Russian prefabs from article.

b) Alright, lets rename the article.

I see two solutions.

a) We will create separate article about prefabs in global scape, that would describe architecture. Than we can keep information about Czechoslovakian panelaks and info about their background, history and why they deserve to be in separate article;-)

b) We will keep only one article but we will remove information about Czech and Slovak republic and create one section about use of panelaks in Czechoslovakia. Than this article needs to be renamed. I doubt that people in russia call their homes Panelak.

Both solutions require renaming main article and it is just what I am fighting for. But I like solution b) better.

--Josef Sábl cz 19:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article contains some specific information for Czechoslovakia (though possibly shared by Poland, Hungary etc). After someone creates article on Bulgarian panelaks then its time to coordinate/change the structure, IMHO. About your solution (b): it may be quite hard to maintain such article and it takes a lot of time to review updates.

Perhaps one solution would be to create category "Tower Block like structures" or so (as [[Category:Architectural_styles]] subcategory), have one general article and then country/building type/ etc specific ones. Pavel Vozenilek 20:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think we should keep the panelak article (why not?), even if we create a new article on panelak-like apartment buildings in general. Perhaps someone can start an article on "Apartment buildings of the Soviet Bloc" or something. Mwalcoff 08:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My opinion, how should this article look

I have changed this article a little. Please feel free to change things or even roll back changes. It is just my idea.

[edit] Removed italics

I think that italics should be used only in case when we are talking about word panelák not the panelák building. It is regular word as any other, there is no need to write it in italics.

example: Word panelak comes from word panel. Panel is matter that panelaks are built of.

[edit] Revert

I have reverted all of the edits by Mr. Sabl while including his note about the equivalent of panelaks in other countries. Mr. Sabl's edits, while showing a healthy interest in the article, were not in great English and made the article somewhat confusing. I also removed the Russian picture, since the article refers specifically to buildings in the former Czechoslovakia. Finally, I agree with Mr. Sabl that the word "panelak" should not be in italics all the way through -- that would go against the assertion that "panelak" should be the English term. So I de-italicized it throughout, except where it falls under the "words as words" rule.

I've also cleaned up the lead paragraph a bit in a way I hope clarifies exactly what the article is supposed to be referring to. I think part of the confusion came from the probably erroneous information that "panelak" in English is "prefab." If that were true, the article should have been called "prefab." But "prefab" is not the equivalent of "panelak" -- it is just short for the adjective "prefabricated." There is no such thing as "a prefab" as far as I know. Mwalcoff 20:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, we have a quite interesting article now. Thanks. Juro 00:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Satelite dishes

Alhought the sentence with "protruding satellite dishes" sounds great, the implication is problematic. Satelite dishes were popular in early 90s. Now, "normal people" in cities have cable tv. People may have satellite to save $10-20/month :-) --Wikimol 23:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's interesting, because in America, DTH satellite dishes are considered superior to cable TV. You can get something like 300 channels with a satellite dish, compared to about 60 with standard cable. That's why I thought the satellite dishes indicated wealth. Mwalcoff 15:27, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Before 1989 dishes were the means to see Western TVs (the dishes and electronics were often hand made) and in early 90's cables didn't exist. Today dish + equipment could be bought for few thousands of CZK (few hundredths $). Several dozens of free channels + paid ones are available, in several languages but not in Czech. I do not know whether they even have subtitles in Czech. Pavel Vozenilek 17:10, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The difference may be in this: in America big part of the 300 channels is in English language. The same holds in Czechia ;-) If you compare the number of Czech language channels cable tv is superior to satellite.

The highest concentration of satellite antennas I have ever seen was in some village in Ruthenia - definitely not very wealthy region of Europe. The reason was exceptionaly bad reception of terrestrial tv. --Wikimol17:25, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] same builidings in other countries

Exactly same buildings were built in other european communist countries. I see no difference between Paneláks and Bloks in Poland. They are just as common here. Article needs to be renamed and cover similar buildings in Central and East Europe. exe 01:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

in Gdańsk:
in Kraków:
in Tarnów:

The article was originall smaller and focused on Czechoslovakia. Over time people added more and more of general stuff. The general stuff should be moved into overview article. Pavel Vozenilek 21:31, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I think exe is right to some extent. Perhaps we should have an article on Apartment buildings of the Soviet Bloc or something. -- Mwalcoff 22:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I left this discussion some time ago, giving up my tendency of persuading you to change this articles caption and I am pretty happy something has changed. YES YES YES Merge this article pleaaaase. It is absolutely stupid idea to pick one Czech word and start explaining why is this object different in Czech Republic than in other countries. It is not anyway. You can write article about "Auto", we don't call it "Automobile" in Czech Republic, explain the difference between Skoda and Mercedes, and pretend that Skoda is actually something absolutely different. These tower blocks, or as you call it "panelks" are build all over Europe and I doubt they call them panelak in France. --Josef Sábl cz 08:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe the phenomenon od Panelaks has two important sides

1. the physical aspect, prefabrication, construction practice,..
2. the social aspect, urbanism, social developement

I think the social aspect is at least as important as the physical. On this bsse I would be against merge with articles about prefab buildings all round Europe on the base of physica characteristic. I would be for merge of all CEE (former Soviet satellite) articles. I'm quite sure in PL,CZ,SK, HU its all the same including social aspects. I'm not so sure about former core USSR countries such as Russia. Often "the Soviets were the example" thus many thing there were taken to the "next step", copmaared to satellites. --Wikimol 00:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Soviet" inventions

Sorry, panelak is not "Soviet" invention. I am living in Wien-Leopoldau in the same "panelak". Huge parts of Paris are formed by "panelaks". Do you want to say Paris or Vienna are Soviet cities?

Idea of "panelak" was invented by French architects after II World War.

[edit] Panelák, what a cool English term

Man, this article is still called "Panelák"? I check once in a while and it feels more creepy every time I visit. When will "počítač" article emerge, describing the typical Czech computer with the most common feature of stolen software installed. You are crazy, people, crazy :-) --Josef Sábl cz 22:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

English-speaking people in the Czech Republic call them "panelaks." There is no English-language equivalent, just like there is no equivalent to sudoku, filet mignon or piñata. -- Mwalcoff 00:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)