Talk:Pan-Slavism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Pan-Slavism is within the scope of the Russian History WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Russian History. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

Contents

[edit] the whole situation

The whole article is completely distorted and full of wrong information especially on a situation in the XXth century. ex, in Poland the pan-slavism has never been an issue, it's not even discussed or supported by any major or minor party. The only considerable possibility for a Western pan-Slavic state was in the XIth century and since then no such idea in Polish history was ever taken into consideration.

I have heard that there were some talks on West-Slavic federation between Czechoslovakia and Poland during the exile of both governments in London. I heard it several years in some documentary on Polish TV but can't say anymore about it. It really hasn't been ever a particularly popular idea. Also, I think that Pilsudski wanted some sort of federation (with Poland dominating it) of former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth states (eg. Belarus, Ukraine). Eventually, he simply occupied some of those areas but otherwise they might've become parts of the USSR which he didn't want. I can't pick the sources so I'm not writing it in Wikipedia but if someone were really interested the topic, they might do some research. (added by 85.221.134.193)
Never heard about the Czechoslovakian thing. Show a ref. Pavel Vozenilek 17:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The article talks of pan-slavism as a serious option considered by many as an alternative which isn't the case. Any comparaison with pan-germanism or pan-arabism is out of touch since we speak different languages rather than different dialects as it is the case in these two cases. Anyways a major clean-up of this article is needed.

Slavic languages are so alike that they might be easily considered dialects if it were what one wanted. The region boundary (south-east-west) may be a bit strong but within the particular subdivisional areas the languages are pretty comprehensible for each others' speakers (still, much more in writing than speaking but it can be trained). (added by 85.221.134.193)
Dialects are mutually intelligible, sort of. For me Slavic languages are not, without lot of effort (exception: Czech - Slovak). But I am not language gifted, YMMW. Pavel Vozenilek 17:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the idea of Pan-Slavism was present in various forms before 1815, in was the strongest in Russia and in what was Yugoslavia. The 815 was only a turning point. Anyone with some knowledge on pre-1815 Pan-Slavism can add some info on the article. I have too little information on that some I can' do that.


We also need Pan-Germanism, Pan-Arabism, and whatever else works under romantic nationalism. The 'English Speaking Union' is not the equivalent - Anglo-Americanism? I dunno. --MichaelTinkler

I don't know that there is pan-Germanism in the way that there was pan-Slavism, perhaps because Germany was its own empire when this stuff broke out. That said, I think that there might now be a type of pan-German movement based on the resentment of losing two world wars (and one world cup) -- unfortunately, this also seems to tie into many of the the right-wing German nationalist groups, some of which are so extreme that they are illegal under Germany's constitution. Interestingly enough, the US would allow them...! JHK

No, the stuff broke out during the Napoleonic Wars. Pan-Germanism refers to the German nationalism that allowed Bismarckian Prussia to take over its neighbouring states. The Second Reich resulted; Germany was only an Empire in a stable form from 1870, before which it was a mess of kingdoms (and before 1815 it was "united" under the superficial Holy Roman Empire and its leaders, the Hapsburgs of Austria; this was the First Reich).

[edit] pan-slavism

many slavs would not be willing to participate in any kind of pan-slavic movement. just look at the situation of the serbs and croats...

Gringo300 12:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. I would be willing to participate in such a movement with my fellow Slavs. -- slavicmanifestdestiny193


Just because you disagree and would join such a movement does not mean that it would gain wide spread popularity. You are ignoring tensions all through out Eastern Europe between all slavs (Ukraine-Russia, Poland-Russia, Hungarians-Romanians, Serbs and Croats etc). I think we must also be careful not to make too strong comparisons between Pan Germanism and Pan Slavism. I would argue that while Pan Germanism is largely based on an idea of some kind of single German race, Pan Slavism is based on a multinational idea, more comparable to something like Pan Western Europeanism , a concept without any historical roots in Western Europe --Colin MacDonald


Since when Hungarians and Romanians are Slavs? And sometimes personal point of view is more representative than "official" and "acceptable" ones.Anyway,Colin,could you kindly tell me (personal,of course:)) why today's European union cannot be called just poor-covered Pan-western idea, dominating over whole continent? Yes,Poland and other eastern countries are members of union now,but do they really participate or simply follow the general path of much greater powers,like Germany or France? And that is pan-westernism. --All the best,Simon

[edit] Citation needed for suspicious information

Poland never was very enthusiastic about its Slavic roots, anyway, and this attitude regularily found its expressions, as well in the ideology of sarmatism, as in the hostilities towards the culture of its Slavic neighbours like Ukrainians oder Belarusians.

This is strange - it's the first time I heard that Poland was 'not very enthusiastic' about it's Slavic origins. Where had the Poles denied they are Slavs? And how do you measure enthusiasm? Of course, unlike Russians, Poles never tried to unite ALL Slavs under their guidance, so I guess they indeed were less enthusiastic then Russian Empire of the Soviet Union. Second, how is sarmatism an expression of some 'anti-Slavism', and how again this can be used to explain Polish hostility towards Ruthenians (but not Lithuanians or themselves, for example?). This entire sentence makes little sense and unless proper academic references are provided, it should be deleted as unverifiable POV.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe Voyevoda's sentence is just a reaction to Molobo's severe trolling. It was Molobo who denied any connection of the Poles to the Slavs and routinely changed "Slavic languages" to "Eastern and South Slavic languages", so as not to include Polish into the category. By the way, Piotrus, I hope you do not follow Molobo's way when you call this typical and quite harmless content dispute "vandalism" on the Polish notice-board. If you do, please take care. Trolling is strongly frowned upon. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Two wrongs don't make a right. And note that the notice at PWNB notes 'Articles needing attention' and sais nothing about vandalism. Would you dispute that this article needs attention? Not that Voyevoda additions are any better then worst of Molobo's, and I think you called his actions with the 'v' word quite often.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Your edit summary lists it as an "article vandalised". Please don't think we are blind. --Ghirla -трёп- 05:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, Ghirla, perhaps you should check your eyes. Or are you confusing me with Voyevoda? If so, I'd think we are both offended :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Of course sarmatism was an expression of insufficient identification of Poles with their Slavic derivation. What else should have caused this feverish seeking for other roots? The Polish hostility towards Ruthenians showed itself in the discrimination of their belief, language and traditions. Ukrainians and Belarusians were called "bydlo" and were often forced to change the street side, when a Pole came along. All that is not being told in Poland so the Poles sincerely wonder, why things like Volhynia 1944 occured. Voyevoda 08:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
History by Voyevoda is fascinating, but care to provide any references backing your POV?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I am still waiting for any citations. Otherwise this original research will be deleted.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] countries with slavic origins

I would like to discuss the use of this word. I changed it to "countries with slavic national languages", which I think is much more precise. Somebody changed it back using the argument "languages have nothing [!] to do with this, slavic origin means founded and mostly inhabited by Slavic peoples". Now, in my opinion the definion of "Slavic people" is "people speaking a Slavic language" and we are back at languages, which justifies the phrase I introduced. Any counter-argument? Nahabedere 09:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not so much a counter though the term "origins" is better. It's true that language is the only thing which unites Slavic people but then it's the only thing that unites anyone anywhere at all, unless they are united by a surviving phenomenon, such as a religion (maybe the Jews are a good example, original Hebrew fell into disuse centuries before the birth of Christ but diasporans all over the world maintained their faith). From an individual viewpoint, it is possible to say you are Czech, or Russian etc. without knowing a single word of the language: supposing a Czech couple move to the USA and raise their two children speaking to them entirely in English; this does actually happen, and the children may still feel Czech, or Czech-American, but without the language to pass down, it is unlikely that this practice will survive three generations (of Czechs only marrying other Czechs who have lost their language). Meanwhile, looking at it from the angle of an entire group of people, let us take the Rumelians of Bulgaria, united since the creation of the modern Bulgarian republic. Supposing the Rumelians claimed that they were NOT Slavic (which they don't) but descended from a group of people to occupy the Balkans some centuries earlier, called, the Rumelians, then the only way that they would have converted language to the point that their original language has been erased would be for some Slavic presence among them. Now, as there is no region today in the Slavic language countries where the majority claim to be non-Slavic and a small group of Slavs (all be it 2%) can claim to have continued their Slavic identity, it is clear that the people mixed and one group has assimilated the other! If the Slavs were originally a smaller group and now the communal name for the people is the same as that of the larger group (ie. Rumelians - bearing in mind this is only an example), one might be forgiven for assuming that the 2% Slavs were dissimilated by the 98% Rumelians, but given that it was the Rumelians who abandoned their languages, it is fairer to say that they became Slavic. So, wherever there is a Slavic language community, be it the whole of Slovakia, or the pockets of Sorbs in Germany, or the Krashovans of Romania, you can be sure that there is a line of descent in the Slavs of the first millennium AD even if this trace is thin. --Evlekis 13:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

maru (talk) contribs 05:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reactionary nature

It should also be emphasized that Pan-Slavism also had a reactionary nature, especially in the Carpathian Basin where (especially Slovak Pan-Slavists like Stúr or Hurban-Vajansky) they wanted to subjugate the whole area to Czarist Russia and in support of the Habsburg monarchy, they fought against Kossuth's freedom fighters in 1848-49.Árpád 07:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../p/a/n/Talk%7EPan-Slavism_dada.html"