Template talk:Palestinian ethnicity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents

[edit] Nov 2006

I've created this template to facilitate access to editing on the ethnicity templates. It can be a bit daunting to have to tease out of an article what to edit in a traditional {{Ethnic group}} template format. This method allows for folks to be able to concentrate on just the infobox itself. (→Netscott) 08:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Palestinian an ethnicity?

I hope this doesn't offend anybody, but I'm not sure that Palestinian is not an ethnicity, at least not in the same sense as groups with ethnicity templates (such as Into-Aryans or Greeks). At best, it is a nationality. The word "Palestinian," when used to describe the Arabs that once lived in the British Mandate of Palestine and their decendants, is a term that is only about 50 years old. I noticed that Jordanians and Saudi Arabians do not have their own ethnicity template, even though those nationalities are older than Palestinians. I propose deleting the Palestinian ethnicity template. --GHcool 05:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion is happening here Talk:Palestinian_people#Are_Palestinians_an_ethnicity.3F. --64.230.126.5 21:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Palestnian Imagery

I figure that same as with other nationalitiesexamples: [1], [2], the front image should be of prominant figures rather than an obscure image of two smiling children.

[edit] Suggested Prominent Palestinians

feel free to expand namelist and/or add from the list to the template...

note: this information has been written also on the talk page of the Palestinians article. Jaakobou 09:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Arguments were made specifically agains the inclusion of political figures in earlier discussions of this issue on the Palestinian people talk page. Your change does not reflect any alleged consensus outcome. Please wait and discuss you changes before continuing. Tiamut 03:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no consensus on this change and the last two times the issue was discussed there was no consensus, leaning towards keep for lack of a better option. Stop introducing these unsupported changes. Thank you. Tiamut 03:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The image of two children is biased and should be removed to adhere to Wikipedia's policy of the NPOV. This is NOT to say that they are necessarily biased culturally or sympathetically (though they may appear to be that way), but that they conflict with the de facto standards established by many other Ethnicity templates. Furthermore, all images used in the non-biased, more encyclopedic image suggested are free images (two public domain and one with all rights released on copyright), which therefore presents no fair use issues. --72.77.91.249 05:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Please see the relevant discussion on the Talk:Palestinian people page. The accusation that the photos are "biased" was not found to be a valid argument, nor does is the photo a violation of any Wikipedia policy. The template is for the article Palestinian people not Palestinian National Authority or Palestinian Politicians. More than 50% of the Palestinian population is made up of children. Why is this picture is any way POV? Tiamut
As stated above: because it does not adhere to the de facto standards established by articles of a similar kind, which sets it apart and creates bias, even if the images in and of themselves are not necessarily biased. --72.77.91.249 05:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Would you mind explaining what the "de facto" standrads for ehtnicity template pictures are? I am not aware of any guidelines or policies on the issue. 13:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The template should follow other templates and use pictures of prominent people. This is not a PR campaign, but an encyclopedia. -- Avi 13:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Avi, I'm sorry but I disagree strongly with your decision, your arugment, and the implication that the photo serves part of a "PR campaign". Extensive discussions on this issue in Talk:Palestinian people reached a stalemate with no consensus on what pictures would be more approrpiate. Please explain what guidelines or policies prohibit the use or pictures of children in ethnicity templates. Tiamut 13:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Consistency with other wikitemplates for starters. -- Avi 14:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Really? And what is consistent about other wikitemplates. Can you direct me to a page that outlines this? Thank you. Tiamut 14:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Some examples were listed above. Now, why are you pushing a picture of children? What is special about children that reflect Palestinian ethnicity? Further, how do I know those children are not Bangladeshi or Israeli or Texan? -- Avi 15:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Avi, as one who is making a change, it's up to you to defend that change, not for me to answer a series of rather ridiculous question that ssume bad faith on my part or some kind of misrepresentation. I refer you to comments in the extensive dicussion on this issue at the Talk:Palestinian people page, where I wrote:

The children are people and they are Palestinian. More than 50% of Palestinian population are children under the age of 18; i.e. they form a majority of the population. To put in a historical picture would be to consign Palestinians to history, and to put in a picture of a prominent Palestinian, would be to ask "which one?" Note also that the Israelis page has pictures of "Israelis on the street", two random people smiling, as well as other random human shots. The motivations of the anon who opened this debate are offensive, and those supporting his objection so far, with the exception of Tewfiq, generally seem to share in his offensive POV. If another more suitable photo is located, we could discuss moving the photo into the main body of the article. But for now, seeing as it is not inappropriate and there are no concrete alternatives, it should stay exactly where it is. Tiamut 01:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

No need to shout, Tiamut image:smile.gif. Firstly, where is Template:Israeli ethnicity? Or are you referring to something else? Secondly, lets look at the entries in Category:Ethnicity templates:

  • Templates with pictures of notable ethnic people
    1. Template:African American ethnicity
    2. Template:Armenian ethnicity
    3. Template:Asian American ethnicity
    4. Template:Asian ethnicity
    5. Template:French ethnicity
    6. Template:Greek ethnicity
    7. Template:Indo-Aryan ethnicity
    8. Template:Italian ethnicity
    9. Template:Persian ethnicity
    10. Template:Portuguese ethnicity
    11. Template:Sikh ethnicity
    12. Template:Spanish ethnicity
    13. Template:Swedish ethnicity
    14. Template:Turkic ethnicity
    15. Template:Turkish ethnicity
  • Templates with historical ethnic pictures
    1. Template:Armenian American ethnicity
    2. Template:Japanese ethnicity
  • Templates without pictures
    1. Template:Arab ethnicity
    2. Template:Indian Indonesian ethnicity
    3. Template:Iranian ethnicity
    4. Template:Punjabi ethnicity
    5. Template:Tripuri people
    6. Template:White ethnicity

So, that is 15 templates with notable pictures, 2 with historical ethnic pictures, 6 without images and none with current non-specific ethnic pictures. So, again, why are you trying to make this template different from all of the existing ones? Please explain? More than 50% of African Americans are also under 18, I believe (although I could be wrong), but the ethnic heritage is Malcom X and Martin Luther King, not kids. -- Avi 15:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I was trying to block off the quote. Not shout. In any case, as I commented on User:Jaakobou's page, the last time the issue was discussed, there was no consensus for a change. This new change was introduced by an anon IP and it is quite possible that the pictures violate copyright as well. No one was consulted about the three pictures that were inserted. No attempt to discuss this with other editors at the Talk:Palestinian people page where this issue was last discussed was made before inserting this latest change. It does not reflect consensus. I see that you could not provide me with a page on policies or guidelines relating to the inclusion of pictures that would disqualify the Palestinian children photo as inqppropriate. Instead you have randomly cited examples of the photos available at other templates. This does not prove anything. Wikipedia works on consensus and policies and guidelines. I have asked others to refrain from making the change being inserted until there is a chance for other editors to discuss. This is not an unreasonable request and quite frankly, I don't understand why you insist on reverting to support the change despite the lack of consensus for it or discussion of it. I would ask that you revert to the photo of Palestinian children which is the last photo that had some kind of default consensus instead of pushing my hand into a revert war over this. I appreciate your understanding. Tiamut 15:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
These aren't random, Tiamut, they are ALL 23 existing templates. So you see, you are trying to be the first to break the convention and consistency, which places the onus on you, I am afraid. -- Avi 17:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Your characterization of what's happening here is inaccurate. I did not add these pictures. They have been in place since well before October 2006, when I first became of one six other editors to defend their inclusion after an anon IP tried to get them deleted. You are ignoring the fact that these have been in place for many months now. The silence was disrupted yet again by another anon IP. I'm actually rather surprised that you would try to defend the change and ignore the default consensus established at the Talk:Palestinian people the last this was discussed. Tiamut 17:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This version looked well balanced to me. (→Netscott) 16:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Really? I find that quite surprising. How so? Why is Haj Amin al-Husseini there? He's long dead and hardly anyone cares about him anymore, except for pro-Israel advocates who like to use him to point to Palestinian anti-Semitism. How do these people represent Palestinian ethnicity exactly? Are they cultural figures of reknown? No, just a random selection of photos of six middle-aged male politicians of controversial and in some cases dubious reknown. The photo of two young girls is much much better. Tiamut 17:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Well regardless an image/collection of images that has a better spectrum of who the Palestinian people are should be put into place. Don't get me wrong, I like the image of the children but a more thouroughly representative image is warranted. (→Netscott) 17:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Said by Jaakobou: "all obscure except for Mahmoud Darwish, i believe a picture with President Abbas and Amin al Husseini is more representative ..." <--- Tiamut was opposed to the previous version because it displayed political figures. There are no politicians in this new version, and yet he is still not pleased. I am sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. Compromises can be made over and over again and there will never be a consensus. By this very logic, having no image would be the correct solution. The current image is more encyclopedic and proper for a website such as Wikipedia, and it truly reflects the accomplishments of the Palestinian people. (Writers, poets, T.V. producers, historians, etc.) There should be no copyright dispute, for the images themselves have either been released into the public domain or fall under the fair use doctrine. Not to mention that the images all come from Wikipedia articles. 72.188.213.216 17:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)To anon IP: Why are you in such a rush to make the changes without discussing what they shold be? I will repeat it for you again. The photo of the children was the last to enjoy any consensus. Your changes have not been discussed. Before you insert what you alone think constitute "famous Palestinian people", you should try to show a little more respect for the opinions of others as whom those might be or if it's even appropriate. Also, I'm a "she", not a he and you did not address my point about gender imbalance in the photos you have made a collage out of. I reject this change until we reach some sort of consensus on what exactly will be put in the place of the photo of the children. I remind you too that WP:Consensus notes that silence (as in no changes to edits made) for a period of time can be viewed as consensus. This picture enjoyed such silence until your disruptive and pushy edits under an anon IP no less with a rather single-minded agenda. Please discuss your changes and consider registering for an account. Tiamut 17:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of seeking a compromise while this is worked out I have commented the image out. Please let the reverting warring cease while a consensus is formed on what image will be displayed. (→Netscott) 17:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Leave no pictures until we decide on one. At least their is precedent for no pictures (per above). -- Avi 17:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I strongly object but will not revert for the time being. I would like to restate my position that your characterization of what's happening here is inaccurate. These pictures have been in place since well before October 2006, (and I don't even know who first posted them). I was one six other editors to defend their inclusion after an anon IP tried to get them deleted. They have been in place for many months now enjoying a default consensus, only to be again disrupted by another anon IP. There is no specific guideline and the default consensus established at the Talk:Palestinian people the last time this was discussed should be sufficient grounds to maintain the photo's inclusion until agreement on what should replace it can be reached. Tiamut 17:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
As posting under an anonymous IP address is apparently frowned upon and seems to tend to discredit anything said while posting, I have registered for an account; previously, I was 72.77.91.249. I have read through the large majority of the discussions which took place at Talk:Palestinian people, and what I have gathered from it is that the major argument against having a montage of several prominent Palestinian figures is that no free images were available; this is obviously not the case, though it may have been when that discussion took place -- I do not know. However, the original montage presented by the anon IP consists ENTIRELY of *free images* of prominent figures; the newer one may contain images that may not constitute fair use. Furthermore, I feel that any argument made on the basis of gender imbalance is void from the perspective of the children image vs. any new image, as the image of the two children are BOTH female; is this not also a prime example of gender imbalance? Thus, I feel that this argument is entirely irrelevant. Finally, Tiamut, you stated "Before you insert what you alone think constitute 'famous Palestinian people', you should try to show a little more respect for the opinions of others as whom those might be or if it's even appropriate." I feel that this argument is also invalid, because again, the standards established by the many encyclopedic examples presented by Avi show that pictures of prominent people is the norm; I think we will ALL agree that those two children are not famous or prominent figures in Palestinian culture in any way, shape, or form. In order for an article to remain encyclopedic, it should show consistency with other articles of a similar kind. --Rintaun 18:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) As Rintaun said last week, and I before that, there is no reason to buck the standard policy and go against every other template on en.wiki -- Avi 00:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Demographics" link in template doesn't work

Resolved ResolvedDemographics now linked

In the fight over the image, I think people have missed the larger issue that the content of the template itself doesn't seem functional. What is with the "Demographics" link? --70.51.230.56 20:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I fixed it. Is there anything else that doesn't work? Tiamut 20:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I redirected it to Demographics of the Palestinian territories, which is tagged as main in the section to which you had linked it. Doesn't it make more sense to link to the main article? -- Avi 03:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Not really. This template is about the Palestinian people as an ethnicity, not a citizenship or nationality. The demographic in the Palestinian territories page does not cover those in the Diaspora, in Israel, in refugee camps, etc. Please change it back. Tiamut 03:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Sure, done. But in that case, shouldn't the {{See}} tag here: Palestinian people#Palestinian demographics be removed too? -- Avi 03:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed. Of course. I am not so good with this kind of thing, so would appreciate your help in eliminating redundancies if there are. Thanks for doing that Avi. Tiamut 04:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to revert, but I removed the tag based on this discussion -- Avi 04:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Avi, I don't think I understood. I'm pretty tired. I'll look at it again later and if I think it's a problem, I'll do something about it. Thanks for your help. Tiamut 04:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../p/a/l/Template_talk%7EPalestinian_ethnicity_a849.html"