Talk:Pallywood/archive1

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[edit] NPOV

This is an article about an alleged practice from the Palestinian side of the "propaganda war," not about Israeli media policy and allegations about it. Also, Landes does more than "suggest" that the Pallywood phenomenon goes back to the 1982 Lebanon war - he claims or asserts it, and depending on your point of view, proves it. Also, I am not sure that "alleging" in front of each bulletpoint rather than as an introduction to it does anything at all.

What we should avoid is the tendency to sneak in pissing contests into this article, as we often see elsewhere on this subject. In my view, this article should be kept short so that the reader can see what the term means and decide whether it has any merit; there are separate articles on the media war itself. --Leifern 11:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely about the need to keep pissing contests out of articles, and I am striving to stay as neutral as I can be. I also agree that "asserting" is probably a better word than "suggesting" for RL: I was trying to use a word that sounded less strident, to keep POV out of it.
But nobody's "sneaking in" anything here: WP edits are all visible if you mark the page on your watchlist, and I labelled my edit clearly. I see that you've removed my edit that the term "Pallywood" is used only by some supporters of the State of Israel, which us puzzling. All mentions I can find of the word by Google search is of people who clearly identify themselves as pro-Israel; it's a loaded term by design, a joking comparison of journalism with Hollywood. So I think the edit should be reverted.
Also, I think subtle POV is introduced by only focussing on Palestinian spin, and not Israeli spin. It implies that Israel doesn't also habitually manage news video footage, which is incorrect.
This topic should really be a new section in the existing entry for Media_coverage_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict. Focussing only on the spin of one side in this particular media war is POV, whether intended or not. --Virago 13:15, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I think allegations of media spin or falsification should be substantiated - the burden of proof should be on those who make them, and whether or not they are "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestinian" is irrelevant - as per the ad hominem argument. As a now excised sentence makes clear, one could make a credible case that Pallywood hurts the Palestinians as much as it hurts the Israelis. By the same token, we don't get neutrality by simply writing that "if one party does it, the other is probably equally culpable of doing something equally bad." --Leifern 15:27, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Are you seriously suggesting that the Israeli govt doesn't engage in fakery and spin on news video footage? They must be the only govt on earth opting out.  :)
Before I go digging out the links, please give me an idea of what sort of proof would convince you that that Israelis have repeatedly engaged in the same practice.
You wrote: "and whether or not they are "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestinian" is irrelevant - as per the ad hominem argument."
It's definitely relevant here, because by calling fake & spun video from the P-I conflict "Pallywood", Dr. Landes (and by consequence this new Wiki page) is implying that this practice is unique to the Palestinians. As he has openly declared his bias, he can't be considered to be making a verifiable observation: he's simply asserting an interesting opinion with no attempt made to hide his bias. The only two WP pages that link here use it in exactly this sense:
  • Media_coverage_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict "Outright forgery - video footage, quotes, and other items are fabricated to bias the presentation. See Pallywood for such allegations."
  • Muhammad_al-Durrah "I came to the realization that Palestinian cameramen, especially when there are no Westerners around, engage in the systematic staging of action scenes," (Landes) said, calling the footage "Pallywood cinema".
This article as it stands is therefore presently unverifiable, primarily based as it is on repetition of an openly POV statement from a historian. I'd be happy to work with you to try to edit it into a useful and non-POV article, and I hope you'll read my tone here as one of respectful disagreement, and not picking a fight. Thanks, --Virago 17:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Well, Landes makes available lots of raw footage and reports from supposedly independent observers. As I said, I think he has the burden of proof here, but I think it should be up to the reader to determine whether he meets it or not. I am not suggesting that the Israeli government is beyond criticism, but by the same token I wouldn't want to treat it as a foregone conclusion that they fabricate video footage, etc. If there are websites that seek to prove such conduct by Israelis, we should link to it just as this one links to Brandes's website. I am not suggesting that we stick such allegations under a chair, but this article is about one type of alleged Palestinian manipulation that has gotten a term. As such, I think it should be short and clearly put in the right context, with links to make it easy for readers to get a more complete story. --Leifern 19:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure wether it's important or not, but among Norwegian tourists visiting Israel (these religious trips) there's a story of a well-know Norwegian reporter asking an Arab* if he could gather some young boys for stonethrowing, as it was months since his last "dramatic" report from Israel. It's a couple of years ago, but this cleraly states that some wesetern reporters dosen't hesistate to create the news they want.

  • He works and live in Jerusalem, and is married to a Norwegian women and this couple is well-know among those travelling with Christian groups , but not with the reporters, and thats how the story emerged.--84.202.94.88 15:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that alleged seems inappropriate given the evidence is available. There is video footage of "dead" rising again off their bier on their way to their funeral, for example. And we are beyond "spin." We have entered the world in which events are staged with actors for the camera. 2nd draft has footage in which a director is seen discussing and coaching his new actor for her appearance. They speak about her actual delivery at the hospital and the health of her baby even as she is coached to claim her baby died because she gave birth at checkpoint. This has also been seen in the recent war in Lebanon.

[edit] Used by....

I don't think you can substantiate that those who use the term "Pallywood" do it because they somehow are against the Palestinian cause. For example, I am surely in favor of Palestinian human rights, economic development, political independence, cultural expression, etc., but I use the term to describe a phenomenon that should be unacceptable in any free society, no matter who it benefits or hurts. It is reprehensible for anyone who is interested in the truth, as it should be. Obviously, one can debate the merits of the allegations, which is why Landes et al make a huge effort to document them; but trying to discredit them by speculating about the allegiance of those who make them is an ad hominem that has no place here. --Leifern 12:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for saying anything can't be proven, but I can't find the term used by anyone who can be described as leaning towards the Palestinians, and of the openly anti-Palestinian sources on the web the term is not universally used. Can you provide any examples of the word "Pallywood" being used in a neutral account of the conflict? Failing that, we must conclude that its use is restricted to a subset of openly non-neutral critics of the Palestinian media. Reverting edit. --Virago 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Please sign talk contributions. You have the burden of proof, not me, on who the people are who are making these allegations. I don't want to get into a revert war here, but the article should be terse and describe the term, explain what its basis, and avoid editorial asides. I can make a very strong case that the Pallywood phenomenon damages the Palestinians more than the Israelis and benefits absolutely nobody. --Leifern 12:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Apologies for omitting signature. The term was coined by somebody who openly declares a bias, and is used only by people who likewise openly declare their bias. It's not universally used, and is intentionally derogatory. Therefore to avoid bringing in POV, its limited use must be explicitly stated in order to understand the term properly. --Virago 12:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

POV tag added following yet another revert. Let's try to find our way to a compromise without revert wars please. Thanks. --Virago 13:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I suppose we need to distinguish between the phenomenon - which, if true, is an affront to the free press anywhere; and the use of the term, which as we agree is a derogatory epithet. I do not thing that we can say that those who coined it are against the Palestinian cause. It is probably safe to say that they want Israeli policy toward Palestinians to be presented in a factual, fair, and unbiased light, but I wouldn't hope that places them in any particular camp. If asked if they want Palestinian policy to be placed in a factual, fair, and unbiased light, they'd probably say they want that too.Leifern
Well you do have a point that the wording is "epithet", not "phenomenon". I don't believe that Landes is anti-Palestinian, in fact it was Ynhockey (who claims to be an Israeli in the IDF) who changed "supporters of the State of Israel" to "opponents of the Palestinian cause", which is not accurate IMO. Neither description is precise enough really- just a fact of life in an issue this complex.
As far as all people in the pro-Israel and pro-Palestine debate camps wanting policy to be placed in a factual, fair, and unbiased light, well, in every conflict there are people and groups who want propaganda & dogma, not balance. As far as I'm aware I don't favor either group in the conflict: I'm just a Wikipedia fan trying to improve it. But we're never objective about our own latent prejudices.
Anyway, fair point. POV tag removed. PS: Remember to sign your contributions. :) --Virago 13:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I wrote that they would "say" that they would want that - of course, all propagandists will promise that they aren't promoting propaganda, merely the truth. --Leifern 14:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I also want all info regarding the conflict to be presented in a fair, factual and unbiased manner. I changed the 'supporters of the State of Israel' for 2 main reasons: The fact that the opposite ('opponents of the State of Israel') would mean people who don't recognize its right to exist, making the phrase offensive to Israelis; and the ambiguity of the sentence (it can mean supporting Israel's right to exist, or it can mean supporting the Israeli government policies, or a bunch of other things). In the end it's not really important to me how the sentence is worded as long as it's not offensive to either side. -- Ynhockey 15:25, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adoption of the term

I changed the wording a bit on the general use of the term "Pallywood" and removed the citation needed. A google search on the term yields 199,000 hits, of which only a minority refer to the film. I think it's safe to say that the term's usage is expanded beyond the film that coined it. --Leifern 14:44, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense. Here are a couple of examples that seemed convincing enough to me: [1], [2], [3]. While I am not familiar with these sources and not sure about their reliability, the term seems to have been widely adopted. OTOH, I'd like to see where does the assertion that "pallywood" is a well-defined term come from. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This was posted on my (Kosmopolis') talk page by Ynhockey:

Hi, please stop removing definitions of Pallywood which were not invented by Landes himself. While Landes may have been referring specifically to Palestinians, the term has since then gained widespread use regarding non-Palestinian Arab media manipulation as well, notably Adnan Hajj. Even a simple Google search reveals that many websites refer to Adnan Hajj's photos as Pallywood (or in some cases Hezbollywood, a derived term). Yes it's true that the name Pallywood itself implies the Palestinians, like many words it grew out of its original meaning into something broader. There is no proof whatsoever that Pallywood now refers exclusively to Palestinian media manipulation. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

My response:
Ynhockey, you are saying yourself that Dr. Landes refers specifically to Palestinians. End of story! A "simple Google search reveals" nothing, only that there are people like you who have the same ill-founded understanding of "Pallywood". Pallywood is a well-defined term and has always been. You are free to start a new topic "Hezbollywood" for that particular neologism, but please don't mix up well-defined terms and bend their definitions to what you perceive them to be. Thanks. Kosmopolis 19:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC) Addendum for Humus sapiens: The assertion that "Pallywood" is well-defined comes from the definition given by the guy who invented this neologism, namely Dr. Landes. He explicitly says [4]: "The term "Pallywood" refers to the staging of scenes by Palestinian journalists in order to present the Palestinians as hapless victims of Israeli aggression." So why would one include e.g. a claim by the International Committee of the Red Cross in the "Pallywood" context? Is the ICRC a Palestinian organization? Or is it a subsidiary of Hezbollah? Even if the ambulance strike is a hoax, was the IRCR's intention to present the Palestinians as hapless victims of Israeli aggression? If Iran put out a news report today, claiming that the Iranian Red Cross was attacked by Israel, would that also be "Pallywood", or rather "Iranywood"? Where do you draw the line? You see, you make the terrible mistake of indiscriminately putting down every report by whatever party that could be perceived as staged/faked and/or deliberately anti-Israel as "Pallywood". We *must* stick to the original definition, even more so because it is a neologism. There is a good reason that traditional encyclopedias wait for years before they accept neologisms as lemmata.
Another post from my talk page:
Sorry for butting in here (this discussion might be better if moved to Talk:Pallywood), but I'll just note that Pallywood probably should only refer to Palestinians, but that it is indeed used for other performances. Perhaps the entire article should be merged into Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? --GunnarRene 21:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I strongly support GunnarRene's proposal. Kosmopolis 21:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to clarify that Wikipedia must reflect reality as it can be verified (i.e. actual use of the term) and not just what it should mean. The originator of the term does not have a monopoly on defintion, although his usage should be have heavy weight. I support my own proposal, by the way :-) --GunnarRene 21:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
GunnarRene, the problem of verifiability is exactly the reason why I think that the term should be here either according to the original definition or not at all, at least not while it is totally unstable. Kosmopolis 22:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

We can agree to disagree but let me propose a compromise, hopefully acceptable to all. Let's reflect the "original definition" and note (with refs of course) that this word is/was used in a wider context. We should reflect reality based on reliable sources and it's not up to us to decide what should or should not happen. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

What you're saying is true, but I say merge it with Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict lest this becomes a content fork/POV fork.--GunnarRene 23:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Humus, I appreciate your trying to resolve the issue, but I would like to point out that your approach is bound to result in a WP:OR mess. Not only do you "provide or presume new definitions of pre-existing terms" (which is done already, implicitly), but also I cannot see which reputable source you would use to back up your claim that the term is was/used in a wider context? A Google search? An arbitrary number of blog posts? I say stick to the Pal in "Pallywood". Why do you think the Red Cross incident (hoax or not) is an example for it? Again, I am afraid you make the terrible mistake of indiscriminately putting down every report by whatever party that could be perceived as staged/faked and/or deliberately anti-Israel as "Pallywood". Don't do it. GunnarRene's proposal is a clear-cut solution. Kosmopolis 01:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I said nothing about merging and it is not what is discussed in this section. Back to the subject:
  1. There is no formal definition (Landes doesn't own the term)
  2. The semantics of the term is evolving as we speak
  3. I didn't mention the Red Cross or Google search
  4. Please explain how reliable sources and refs are "bound to result in a WP:OR mess" ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

In case you did not notice, GunnarRene *has* already proposed a merge. I reaffirmed it below. Back to the subject:

  1. So you admit to using the term for whatever fits your own definition? That's not exactly encyclopedic, isn't it? You may notice that it is even less encyclopedic to try and guess which definition stands at the current moment.
  2. Please provide reliable sources for your claims that "the semantics is evolving", allegedly in the broad and imprecise direction you suspect them to.
  3. The Red Cross incident is included in the article as an example. I removed it. You included it, again. Why do you think it is an example for "Pallywood"? Is the ICRC a Palestinian organisation?
  4. Which reputable and reliable sources (other than some random blog posts of the kind you already provided) would you use to back up your claim that the term is was/used in a wider context? Bear in mind that you "provide or presume new definitions of pre-existing terms", which is part of the definition of WP:OR.

Kosmopolis 02:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have my "own definition". BTW, there is plenty of Palestinians in Lebanon, so maybe this whole "Adoption of the term" argument is a moot point.
About ICRC: we are talking about an ambulance, and not about ICRC headquarters in Geneva. Your "Is the ICRC a Palestinian organisation?" is a strawman. Do you know for sure that there was no Palestinian related to this incident?
The 3 sources above are a result of a quick search. As I said, they are good enough to illustrate a point at talk. I'll try to look for better ones, it may take some time. No need to jump yet. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The three sources are neither reliable nor reputable, it is a random bunch of biased weblogs linking to the Landes video and associating the events in Lebanon to what Landes presents. I guess you will not find anything else. About ICRC: Forget the strawman, I did not expect an answer to that question. I do expect an answer to why you think the incident is an example. I will stand by Landes' definition: "The term "Pallywood" refers to the staging of scenes by Palestinian journalists in order to present the Palestinians as hapless victims of Israeli aggression." Nothing more, nothing less. No Arab conspiracy, no ICRC, no Hezbollah staging. You make the terrible mistake (like those bloggers you quote) of indiscriminately labeling every report by whatever party that could be perceived as staged/faked and/or deliberately anti-Israel as "Pallywood". I hope you realize the difference. Kosmopolis 04:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify: whatever we write should be supported by reliable and verifiable sources. Let's try not to make this personal. ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, "whatever we write should be supported by reliable and verifiable sources". Unfortunately, the three sources you quote are neither reliable nor reputable. Based on that fact, I will remove the "examples" from the lists as long as you do not provide a reliable source that supports the claim that the Hezbollah related incidents are examples for "Pallywood". Kosmopolis 15:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I just think it's fascinating how people get very busy editing Israel-related articles on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.... If people use it, they use it. I think only disreputable people call the separation barrier an "apartheid wall," but I don't think I'd get anywhere making that an argument for deleting any reference to it. --Leifern 23:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I will remove the "examples" from the lists as long as you do not provide a reliable source that supports the claim that the Hezbollah related incidents are examples for "Pallywood". "Apartheid wall" vs. "Separation barrier" or other Israel-related articles are irrelevant in this context. Please stick to the topic. Kosmopolis 09:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
You're begging the question, Kosmopolis. The term Pallywood relates to attempts at discrediting Israel by faking news reports, through photographs, staged events, etc., etc. Like everything else, it's a term to describe documented events, and it is just silly to ask for evidence from "reliable sources" that the meaning of the term has expanded to include also this. I don't know if it really matters - there are plenty of other articles on the fraudulent news reporting from Lebanon as well, but it would be naive to think that Hizballah didn't learn from Fatah and Hamas how to fool the Western media.--Leifern 12:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Your arguments suggest that you have a strong POV. Keep in mind that you arbitrarily declare some actions as Pallywood and others not, based on either your own liking (see WP:NPOV), your own findings (see WP:OR) or on what some random bloggers seem to associate with the term (see WP:RS). You distort the meaning by totally disregarding who is doing the alleged faking. I ask you again, if Iranian media put out a report today, claiming that Israel attacked the Iranian Red Cross, would that also be "Pallywood"? Since your re-definition mentions "Arab cameramen", would you expand it to "Arab and Persian cameramen"? If the Russians did it, what would that be? Also, please don't label my edits as "attempts at burying" information and consider reviewing WP:AGF. I have brought forward clear arguments, and besides numbers from Google searches, your own feelings of "think[ing] it's safe to say that the term's usage is expanded beyond the film", you haven't brought up anything convincing, yet. Thanks. Kosmopolis 13:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me know when you're done with your pissing contest so we can get on with editing the article.--Leifern 13:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Please see WP:NPA. Thanks. Kosmopolis 17:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Kosmopolis, your self-righteousness does you little service. You were the one who accused me of having a POV, threw in some wikilawyering, and accused me arbitrary editing, put words in my mouth, and not paying attention to what I actually wrote. There are no personal attacks involved in characterizing actions, and your accusations had devolved to petty bickering (aka pissing contests) which I had no interest in engaging in. --Leifern 17:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

As per GunnarRene, I officially propose merging this article into Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The term is a neologism whose context, scope and usage is related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Kosmopolis 02:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The link in the template points to Talk:Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but since the discussion is here...
I don't see a good reason to merge, on the contrary: I see good reasons to keep them apart. The article Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a full-fledged article about all kinds of media. There is so much ground to cover there and the topic is so contentious that at some point it was significantly reduced and rewritten. While the phenomenon of "Pallywood" is partly related to media coverage, to a large degree it is a development in cinematography to be listed and analyzed individually. ←Humus sapiens ну? 03:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Humus here; Pallywood is a unique term and concept. Jayjg (talk) 03:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I also agree with Humus. And I'll add my prediction that more will come to light to make this a pretty meaty article over time. --Leifern 13:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Your prediction is probably right, but untill then I say we merge it into the relevant articles and then split again when that information becomes available. Subsidiary choice: Move Pallywood to Israeli-Paliestinian conflict media hoaxes or Arab-Israeli conflict media hoaxes, or indeed a daughter article of Hoax --GunnarRene 14:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
That is not where I headed. The topic is notable enough in itself and should not be buried. --Leifern 14:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Although Adnan Hajj photographs controversy, 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict photographs controversies, Pallywood, and Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict cover similar areas, each covers a different phenomenon. It might be okay to have even broader topics (Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict, Arab-Israeli conflict media hoaxes) and do merges from there, but, as of now, I think these four categories are sufficiently different, and the proposed merges would make for two weak articles instead of four strong ones. Calbaer 15:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
They should be covered and analyzed individually and separately. Although they are somewhat related, they are different issues/titles. --Shamir1 18:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notability questions

I'd like to return to an issue that came up during the recent AfD discussion: the question of notability. Several of the contributors to the discussion asserted that the subject of the article was notable, but without explaining why. I'm still not convinced that is notable. I'm open to persuasion, though, so I'd like to ask other contributors for their thoughts.

I think there are possibly four angles to the subject matter of the article, each one of which raises some questions:

1) The general issue of alleged media manipulation. The subject is clearly notable, but it's already addressed in considerable detail at Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Why is this a separate article rather than a subsection of the "Media coverage" article?

2) The neologism "Pallywood". I'm not convinced that this neologism is notable. As the references show, it's barely been mentioned by the mainstream media. It's certainly not being used regularly by any media source that I can find, and only certain partisan bloggers seem to be using it regularly. If the use of a term is almost entirely confined to non-notable, non-reliable sources, is that term really notable?

I have had a look for mainstream mentions of "Pallywood", particularly with regard to whether it is an acceptable title for an article about allegations of media manipulation (see poll below). Google scholar throws up one reference (Steinberg) but the mention is in an endnote to Second Draft ("Nidra Poller, ‘Myth, Fact, and the al-Dura Affair’, Commentary, September 2005; see also

http://seconddraft.org/streaming/pallywood.wmv."), and a Lexis Nexis search finds 17 references in English language news:

"misinterpreted or -- as an American academic put it -- artfully staged Pallywood theater." NYT & Int Herald Tribune
"A campaign led in part by Boston University Professor Richard Landes has sought to portray the Dura case as an example of "Pallywood," or theatrical Palestinian propaganda." Boston Globe
"Landes claimed many scenes of violence against Palestinians are staged and coined the term "Pallywood" to describe the industry that produces this footage. He said this "staged" information is a way to further the Palestinian cause and to try the views of those who see it. Visitors to seconddraft.org can watch Pallywood, his 19-minute documentary, as well as several segments of unedited footage shot at Netzarim Junction, a disputed territory in the Middle East." Daily Free Press
"They dub the Palestinian propaganda complex, "Pallywood," and ask hard questions about the readiness -- eagerness -- of much of the world media to be deceived" National Post
"Right-wing bloggers have dubbed that "Pallywood."" Toronto Star
"to the dissemination of "Pallywood" terrorist video productions" Kansas City Star & Augusta Chronicle (Michelle Malkin)
And assorted non-mainstream sources: a letter to the editor, Atlas Shrugs, The Jawa Report, Say Anything, and some Second Draft press releases.
Notice both that all uses of the word are attributed to someone else (normally Landes), except for Michelle Malkin (who still writes in parentheses), rather than using the word as part of their usual vocabulary to describe the phenomenon of media manipulation. Clearly the word is both a marginal neologism but, more importantly, is not widely used to describe media manipulation in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is thus an unnacceptable title for an article about said subject --Coroebus 21:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Should probably also point out WP:NEO:
Support for article contents, including the use and meaning of neologisms, must come from reliable sources. Wikipedia is a tertiary source that includes material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term. (Note that Wiktionary is not considered to be a reliable source for this purpose.)
Neologisms that are in wide use — but for which there are no treatments in secondary sources — are not yet ready for use and coverage in Wikipedia. They may be in time, but not yet. The term does not need to be in Wikipedia in order to be a "true" term, and when secondary sources become available it will be appropriate to create an article on the topic or use the term within other articles.
An editor's personal observations and research (e.g. finding blogs and books that use the term) are insufficient to support use of (or articles on) neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material (which is explicitly prohibited by the original research policy). To paraphrase Wikipedia:Attribution: If you have research to support the inclusion of a term in the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal or reputable news outlet and then document your work in an appropriately non-partisan manner.
--Coroebus 11:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for those data points, Coroebus. I did a search on Factiva and found 17 results; all the same media articles you quoted, plus a few press releases from Landes himself. The fact that we've had virtually identical results from two different databases shows, I think, that the term has had only very limited media coverage and no regular usage at all. -- ChrisO 01:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

3) Richard Landes' film "Pallywood". This definitely seems to fail notability requirements. It's really only a personally authored video essay (only 17 minutes long, I gather). I've never seen it reviewed in any reliable source, it has no IMDB entry, it's purely self-distributed, etc. The fact that it's entirely a self-published work raises questions about whether we should be citing it in the first place (see also point 4). What makes it notable?

4) Richard Landes' political views. "Pallywood" the film is essentially a vehicle for Landes' personal political views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Landes is a medieval historian; he's not an expert on the I-P conflict, he's never published any academic papers or books on it, as far as I know he's not written newspaper articles about it and his self-published material appears not to have been quoted by any mainstream sources that I've come across. His own user page at Boston University makes no mention of his Middle Eastern activism [5]. In short, it appears to be an entirely private endeavour, separate from anything he's doing academically. Clearly this falls well outside the scope set out by WP:ATT: "Where a well-known, professional researcher, writing within his or her field of expertise has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by reliable, third-party publications" (my bolding). Why are Landes' personal views notable, given that he's acting in a personal capacity outside his field of expertise and doesn't seem to be regarded by mainstream sources as an expert (or even a reliable source) on Middle Eastern affairs?

I think there's a strong rationale for saying that Landes' film and political views aren't notable, but as I said, I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. What do the rest of you think? -- ChrisO 00:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

ChrisO, we have gone over all these arguments before in the AFD. The term gets lots of hits on Google, even if you substract out those that mention Landes. I have nowhere before in Wikipedia come across an argument that it needs to be cited in Lexis/Nexis a certain number of times to be notable. And I reject your premise that the topic of media fraud is covered adequately in other articles. This article has gone through an AFD before; it failed. Let it go.--Leifern 01:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you have a look at some quotes from previous discussion on a very similar article, and compare with the current discussions. --Coroebus 20:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for posting that - I've not been following that debate. I won't say I'm surprised at what you've found. -- ChrisO 22:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
You seem to be unaware of Wikipedia:Notability (emphasis added): "A topic is generally notable if it has been the subject of published material which is independent of the subject, reliable, and most importantly, attributable. The depth of coverage and quality of sources must be considered in determining the number of sources required and whether the coverage establishes notability. Multiple sources are preferable and should be independent of each other... For example, popular Internet fads may be the subject of few or no reliable sources and fail to be notable" I don't believe we've ever accepted Argumentum ad populum as a valid argument for notability. But thank you anyway for addressing one aspect of the issue, albeit a question I wasn't asking. Could you please answer my four specific notability questions above? I'd like to get the answers on the record, since none of this article's proponents seem to have given any policy-based (as opposed to politics-based) rationale for the article's notability. -- ChrisO 01:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
As for point number (1) - I'm thinking that the article should possibly me made into a sub category (such as History of Israel on Israel) on an article titled: "Arab Media Manipulation" article, a generic "media covrage" article would make a search for "pallywood" impossible and would render wikipedia unusable for a person who wishes to learn about the phenomenon. Chris and Coroebus, all your other points are pointless and repetative "notability questioning" which has allready been addressed with on the AfD voting. Jaakobou 17:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I think the notability tag should be removed. First, although this isn't always the case, it is most of the time: if an AfD doesn't show consensus to delete, the subject in question is at least somewhat notable. This is one of those cases. A variety of sources in at least three different forms of media have been supplied, and, while I question the reliablity of the groops.goougle link, all the others I can see look reliable enough to serve this purpose, which is asserting the notability of this term.
  • Second of all, what does the pro-tag group of editors think leaving that ugly tag there is going to accomplish? The Wikipedians most qualified to write this article are already here - no one who patrols the category which that tag feeds into is going to come along and assert more notability than is asserted now (and, as I already noted, it asserts plenty.) This coming from someone who 1) geniunely doesn't care for either side in the Arab-Israeli dispute and 2) is a deletionist with higher standards for notability than many. Picaroon 01:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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