Talk:Palestinian flag

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[edit] Proposed rename

I propose to rename this article to Palestinian flag, as this title better reflects the usage of the flag by Palestinians, rather than by any entity named "Palestine". It should be noted that this is not, and never has been, the flag of the historical region known for millenia as Palestine. -- uriber 16:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

===>Standards and Conventions: The standard for naming articles like this is "XXX of [country]" rather than "[country]ian XXX" for a variety of reasons. The title "Flag of Palestine" should not imply recogntion of the state, but if you feel that the article is too biased, feel free to amend it for a more balanced point of view. Justin (koavf) 18:04, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

The standard is for countries. Palestine is not a country, and therefore the standard does not apply in this case. -- uriber 18:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

===>What? I don't know where you got that idea, but there are already several articles in the form of "XXX of [country]" that refer to nations, and geographic entities. See, for instance, Flag of Tibet. The title "Flag of Palestine" does not confer any legitimacy to the State of Palestine. Justin (koavf) 19:24, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Tibet is a defined geographic entity which was once an independent country. "Palestine" is neither. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:31, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Where did I get what idea? The idea that "XXX of [country]" is a standard applied to countries? I got it from the use of the word "country" in your description of the standard. Anyway - this is not (and has never been) the flag of the georgraphic entity "Palestine". Using the standard used for geographic entities (and countries), might cause people to erroniously assume that it is. -- uriber 20:16, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Agree. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:31, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

===>Terminology: In political science, "country" is a meaningless term - it's only used in a colloquial sense, and is often used interchangeably with the scientific terms of "state" and "nation." I think that the articles describing states, nations, and geographic entities are comprehensive enough to explain the situation to even casual users. I trust them to come to their own conclusions, including recognizing the State of Palestine, as some 92 governments have done. Justin (koavf) 22:18, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Even more have not, including most of the developed world, and there's no indication they ever will unless there one day actually is a country called Palestine. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:43, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

===>Fair enough, but off-topic I also don't think they should recognize the State of Palestine (at least not yet), and I'm largely pro-Israel. That having been said, the article won't be renamed for the reasons explained above. Justin (koavf) 22:55, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Please refrain from using expressions like "the article won't be renamed". It is your opinion that the article shouldn't be renamed. And as of now, this is a minority opinion. What will, or won't, happen would be the result of the discussion taking place here.

To the point - Suppose I would accept your claim (as I understand it), that this is primarily the flag of the State of Palestine (a claim to which I disagree, as the flag was used well before the "state" was proclaimed, and even nowadays is usually not used in conjunction with the "state", and is even used by organizations which do not recognize the "state", such as Hamas). Even then - the article should be renamed to Flag of the State of Palestine, following the examples of Flag of the Republic of Macedonia (not Flag of Macedonia, which is a redirect), and Flag of the People's Republic of China (again, not Flag of China) - because the term "Palestine", even more than "Macedonia" and "China", is amibiguous (at best), and is not understood by most people to refer to the "State of Palestine" (a "virtual" state, which was, in practice, pretty much abandoned even by the PLO following the Oslo Accords and the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority). -- uriber 23:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

===>Let me backtrack here: The article won't be renamed, assuming two elegant propositions:

1. We continue to respect Wikipedia policy on naming conventions, and
2. Those same conventions don't change.

Unless I've missed something particular to this situation, there is no reason to assume that either of these statements won't be the case. Consequently, the article won't be renamed. I honestly don't care whether it should or shouldn't be renamed - I make no value judgement on the issue. All I'm saying is that, as far I as understand naming convention, it will not be changed. My opinion is a minority opinion in as much as only three people have weighed in, and the policy and precedent are clearly on my side. If you feel this should be submitted to a vote, then I encourage you to do so, but I also feel confident that my interpretation of the naming convention will hold up to scrutiny.

If you don't care whether it should or shouldn't be renamed, I'm not sure why you even bothered to respond to my original message. I obviously care about the matter, and I would prefer to have a discussion with people who do care. Your prediction that this will eventually not be renamed is of little value to me. Our understanding of the naming convention is obviously different. I understand it as applying only to countries (and pehaps well-defined territories). The Palestinian flag is not a falg of a country, a state, a geographical region or territory, or any other significant entity named "Palestine", and therefore policies which apply to flags of such entities should not necessarily apply to it. -- uriber 17:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, I was not claiming that this flag is the flag of the State of Palestine (it is), or that it was only the flag of the State of Palestine and nothing more (it is not). I agree that this is a nationalistic flag, and represents a people who are largely regarded to not have a state. Even those governments who recognize the State of Palestine still do so with the understanding that they are either a government-in-exile or shadow government. I honestly have no idea where you got the information that the flag is "usually not used in conjunction with the 'state'". Its use and display are intimately and regularly linked with the struggle for legitimate statehood. In point of fact, I can't recall having ever seen someone or some group personally display the flag without it being a separatist/nationalist/supremacist statement.

You seem to confuse the general concept of a Palestinian state (i.e., a proposed national state for the Palestinians) , with the specific entity called the State of Palestine. This flag, of course, is related to the Palestinian people, and to its national aspirations. But there is no "Palestine" involved in this. "Palestine" is a millenia-old concept, having, for most of its history, nothing to do with Palestinians and their national aspirations. -- uriber 17:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

The examples you give are flawed exceptions to the rule, rather than meaningful contradictions of naming convention. "Macedonia" is a name that is not internationally recognized (yet), in particular at the UN. Consequently, to call the article "Flag of Macedonia" can be construed as POV, as the issue of naming is a sensitive subject in that political arena. On the other hand, no one - Greeks, Macedonians, or other - would argue that this is, in fact, the civil flag used by the governing authority in the area compromising the Republic of Macedonia. In the instance of China, there are two rival governments of China: the People's Republic (Red/Mainland China), and the Republic (Free China/Taiwan). Each has the formal recognition of dozens of states. Again, to avoid POV controversy, there is no "Flag of China" article. There are not two competing governments of Palestine, and there is no international naming controversy over that political/geographic entity of Palestine (except possibly among the most zealous pro-Israeli sources). If these situations were true, your examples would be germane. As it stands, the article can be interpreted to be like those of other states (the UK, India, Niger, etc.) or national/separatist groups (Sami, Tibet, etc.) The ambiguity of not naming if "Flag of State of Palestine" allows for the legitimate interpretation that this flag represents the people group.

The name "Palestine", like "Macedonia" is not internationally recognized as a name for a proposed Palestinian state. Therefore, calling the article "Flag of Palestine" is POV, as the issue of naming is a sensitive subject in this political arena as well (which is why you will never find the name "Palestine" in any official Israeli statement, unless referring to the entire historical region). On the other hand, no one - Jews, Arabs, or other - would argue that this is, in fact, the used by the Palestinian people, by the Palestinian National Authority, and by the somewhat-obscure State of Palestine. The entire area of the state of Israel is within historical Palestine. Usage of the name "Palestine" for anything related to Palestinians (such as the flag), strongly emphasises the Palestinians' territorial claim to all of Palestine - a claim, which, naturally, Israel and Israelis take offense at. -- uriber 17:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I also am not sure exactly why you claim that the State of Palestine as a political concept was abandoned by the PLO. I'll freely grant that they were outrageous in their demands, and that Arafat turned his back on a fantastic proposal for peace and a Palestinian state made by Ehud Barak. Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia agrees with me, and he mediated the negotiations. That having been said, the establishment of an internationally-recognized Palestinian state, with a clearly-defined border(s) has consistently been the aim of the political wing of the Palestinian people, including the PLO and PNA. This idea has never been abandoned, and is integral to the Road Map to Peace. Justin (koavf) 03:03, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Again, you are confusing between the idea of a Palestinian state, and the concrete entity called the "State of Palestine" (which is not actually a state, and exists mostly on paper). -- uriber 17:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you seriously claiming that there is no controversy about the name of the region in which various groups wish to create a State of Palestine? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:10, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

===>A key difference In the case of Macedonia, the defined territory is not disputed, but the name is. In the case of Palestine, the name is not disputed but the defined territory is. So to say, "Are you seriously claiming that there is no controversy about the name of the region in which various groups wish to create a State of Palestine?" is either to deliberately misconstrue what I just said, or to not appreciate the inherent difference between these two cases. Justin (koavf) 15:26, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

The name is disputed as well, for a variety of reasons. A number of groups refer to the "Israel" part of Palestine as "Palestine" as well, or "the Zionist entity", while others refer to the "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip" part of it as "Yehuda", "Shomron", and "Aza", or "Yesha", or simply Israel. Not having defined borders means, by definition, that there are naming disputes as well. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:30, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the name should stick, somewhat, since other disputed territories have the same page name. Example, the area called "Northern Cyprus" has their flag page at Flag_of_Northern_Cyprus. We have former nations that use the same title. Though, if I can suggest a name, it could be Flag of the Palestinian National Authority (or just Palestinian Authority). Zscout370 (talk) 16:53, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm willing to go with Flag of the Palestinian National Authority , although I feel it covers only one aspect of the flag. -- uriber 17:21, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

This flag is multi-purpose, along with other flags. Though the Soviet flag was just used by the Soviet Union as a national flag, but that flag now really stands for the Communism movement. We can make statements to the effect that the Palestinian people created this flag whenever and was used for this time before being adopted by the PNA. Zscout370 (talk) 17:25, 4 May 2005 (UTC)