Talk:Palestinian Christian

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What is the purpose of this page? Is it supposed to be about Palestinian Christians? If so, rename it to Palestinian Christians. But the comment about being "raised in North America" -- are you talking about yourself personally, or what? Plenty of Palestinian Christians are still in Palestine. -- Simon J Kissane

Yes You are right! This is the first time I have ever done anything like this, and I do not know how to fix this entry...

I tried twice (look at revisions): It should have read to the effect of a Canadian/Christian/Palestinian/Arab viewoint, one unique in its character, compared to a more traditional Muslim/Palestinian/Arab point of view. The differences can be quite remarkable. No offence is meant. I hope this clarifies why, mainly I do not know how to edit this...

Joseph E. Saad

Joseph: Is your problem technical (you can't work out how to use Wikipedia), or is it finding words for what you want to say ? If its the first, I can probably try helping you. If it is the second, I can also try, but it will probably be a lot harder. -- Simon J Kissane

Yes, mostly at the beginning I had a little hard time getting some parts (technical), but I am learning. I like the way you make the pages look better, more professional.

Also it was hard to describe the point of view I was addressing. Just to make sure that there is a view, not normally heard, You have made it better,

Joseph

See also : Palestine

Does Arafat's wife count as a "Palestinian leader"? Would it be better to write something like "prominent Palestinians"? -- zero 13:21, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== Question == 71.142.68.32 02:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

You might want to talk about Palestinian Christians in Israel too. I have heard they number 125,000. My question is that I have heard almost all the Christians and Muslims were expelled in 1948 from West Jerusalem (or was it Israel as a whole), and that only Jews can be Israeli citizens. So my quetsion is, how can there be Christians in Israeli territory? Thank you. -Rakovsky

I tried to address this point as well as others brought up in the talk through three recent edits.

I also removed this section, "In September 2005, some houses in the Christian village of Taybeh were burned by an angry mob from a neighboring village who were protesting a love affair between a woman from their clan, a Muslim, and a Taybeh man. [6][7]"

I did this after thoroughly reviewing the links to the articles provided which painted a much more complex picture of a struggle between the secular Palestinian Authority judiciary and legislative system and the tendency of some segments of Muslim society to implement their own versions of Sharia law. The BBC report referenced did not conclude whether the woman was actually killed or committed suicide as claimed by her family. It is not clear that if the situation involved a Muslim man the reaction of the mob would have been any different. I think that if the author wants to include an example of anti-Christian actions by Muslims, there should be a better and clearer example available.

I would like to continue working on this article. I should mention that my interest in this subject stems from the fact that I am a Palestinian Christian, married to a Palestinian Muslim and both of us hold Israeli citizenship. The only problem we - and the four other couples we know who are similarly "mixed" - have experienced so far is that we had to get married elsewhere, because none of us wanted to have religious ceremonies and the Israeli government refuses to provide its citizens with the option of getting married in a civil ceremony at home. In contrast, both of our families and the Palestinian society at large have been very supportive.Tiamut 22:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] How to Add Info?

Hi, I am a Lutheran pastor working in Jerusalem with Bishop Dr. Munib A. Younan of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jerusalem and Jordan. There are three Palestinian heads of churches here, the article mentions two, Michael Sabah of the Latin Patriarchy and Bishop Riah of the Episcopal Diocese. Just wanted to add Bishop Younan and our Church, the ELCJ. Can someone do that for me? Thanks, Pastor Julie Rowe

No problem. - Mustafaa 01:10, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Suggestion for this entry

This is my suggestion for this entry. As the article currently stands it has little to do with the realities of Palestinian society. A number of sources point to Israeli occupation of Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank as the primary reason for emigration. This is not even alluded to. What sources have been used for this entry?

....Palestinian Christians are Palestinians who are members of a number of different Christian communities. Historically they have made up some 10% of the world's Palestinian population. The region called Palestine is referred to as the Holy Land by Christians, and major Christian holy places like Bethlehem and Nazareth are in Palestine.

Many Palestinian Christians became refugees during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. It is often argued this community was hit particularly hard economically due to their traditional involvement in commerce. They were like other Palestinian refugees forced into neighbouring countries like Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.

Palestinian Christians have played a prominent role in Palestinian society on the political, cultural and economical level. Examples of Palestinians with a Christian background include Hanan Ashrawi, Edward Said, George Habash, and Raymonda Tawil, mother of Yassir Arafat's wife Suha. There are also current and past high ranking officials of the PLO and the Palestinian Authority of Christian descent.

There is a long history of Christian migration from West Bank cities like Ramallah, Beit Jala and Bethlehem. Migrants have mainly left for Latin and North America. Major Palestinian communities exist in Honduras, Brazil, Chile and the United States, in particular in the metro Detroit area. Some commentators suggest Christian emigrants are more successful in being accepted in Western countries than Palestinians with a Muslim background. It should however be noted that they have traditionally had a higher level of formal education. A minority view holds that the increasing influence of Islamism in Palestinian politics and society is perceived as threatening to Palestinian Christians. This view is however strongly condemned by the PLO and Palestinian Christians in Palestine and outside. Palestinian Christians have played a leading role in the PLO throughout its existence. The PLO has also emphasized its secular aims.

The community has over the last decade witnessed a public debate on alleged mismanagement and condescending attitude towards Arab faithful by the Greek-speaking and largely Greek-born leadership of the Jerusalem Orthodox Church.

The majority of Palestinian Christians belong to the Greek-rite Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, one of the 16 churches of Eastern Orthodoxy. There are also Maronites, Melkites, Jacobites, Roman Catholics, Syrian Catholics, Copts and Protestants among them.

The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Michel Sabah is the leader of the Palestinian Roman Catholics. The Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem is Riah Abu Assal. The Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jerusalem and Jordan is Dr. Munib A. Younan.......

Is this your suggestion for how you think the article should look? If so, the statement "They were like other Palestinian refugees forced into neighbouring countries like Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt" is, at best, highly contested. I'm not sure why a more neutral "Like other Palestinians, they became refugees in neighbouring countries such as Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt" wouldn't be much better. As for why they're leaving now, here is one view: [1] Jayjg (talk) 17:08, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Oh, you might want to look at this as well: [2]. Jayjg (talk) 18:13, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You don't think it's just a little incongruous to be quoting an Israeli and an American anti-Muslim campaigner, rather than a Palestinian Christian, on why Palestinian Christians are leaving? The stated views of the Palestinian Christians themselves are more relevant than the POVs of their enemies, and those views are (and always have been) notable for their strong Palestinian nationalism and their condemnation of Israel. But ot be more specific, here's what some Palestinian Christians say: [3] [4] PDF- Mustafaa 19:46, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, I didn't quote either of them, and the Israeli quotes a whole list of other sources, and the "American anti-Muslim campaigner" is a Palestinian former Muslim. As always, I think NPOV covers a variety of (ideally attributed) views, but I'm still not sure if the text above is one that is being recommended. Jayjg (talk) 20:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I was speaking of Robert Spencer, not the dubious Walid Shoebat. NPOV means we have to mention such views; it doesn't mean we have to pretend they're of equal significance, or omit information on who and how many people hold them. - Mustafaa 20:43, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ah. Spencer quotes Walid Shoebat, doesn't he? If we do have information on exactly how many people hold various views, we should certainly mention it. Jayjg (talk) 21:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, What is interesting about this article is that it contradicts itself. It mentions a number of prominent Palestinian Christians (Said, Ashrawi, Habash and Tawil). These Palestinians are without exception nationalists who do not subscribe to the idea of a conflict between Christians and Muslims in the Palestinian context, quite the contrary. Edward Said even wrote the book 'Covering Islam' dealing with what he sees as biased reporting of Islam in western media. I believe the following link is more representative of a Palestinian perspective than what has been linked in your response [5] It remains a fact that Palestinian Christians have held positions in the PLO and Palestinian Authority, in Palestinian political parties, unions, educational establishments in numbers that are much greater than what their percentage of the Palestinian population by itself would imply. Tiller1

Indeed, the disproportionate involvement of Christians in Palestinian nationalism is a well-known fact, alluded to by every history book of the conflict I've ever read. - Mustafaa 00:11, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the issue is. There seem to be two points here; one is that Palestinian Christians have historically been disproportionately involved in Palestinian nationalist movements. The other that at least some have made persistent allegations of Muslim oppression, particularly in recent years. Why is this a contradiction? Jayjg (talk) 02:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I believe the discussion here is the article as a whole. It needs to be changed as it is of poor quality. 'at least some' does not tell us much to be honest, neither does 'persistency'. There is a need for international sources to back these allegations: Amnesty, HRW, the UN etc. The contradiction is the following: No claims of persecution have been offered by any well known Palestinian Christians (as I have stated earlier the most well known are in the article: Said, Ashrawi etc). If the allegations about 'muslim persecution' were correct these prominent Christian Palestinians would have made public statements to this effect. I have also posted a link above that expresses the majority view from a Palestinian perspective. So I would like to have this article changed ASAP. The fact that someone posted this article initially does not make it right. It is also worrying that no timeline is offered in terms of emigration. An article on Palestinian Christians should mention emigration to Latin America, in particular the communities in Brazil, Chile and Honduras. In Chile they even started their own football club: Palestino. Please look at the following article. I believe this article also goes some way in proving just urgent this entry in wikipedia needs changing (the Palestinian community in Chile is largely Christian): [6]
Well, I still can't figure out which sections you want to change and exactly how. The claims of persecution of Christians are published in reputable sources, and apparently American courts have accepted religious persecution of Palestinian Christians as fact. I'm all for balance, but not for removing this view entirely. Jayjg (talk) 17:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"at least some have made persistent allegations of Muslim oppression"? Your former link quotes not a single Palestinian Christian making such an allegation, restricting itself almost entirely to Israeli reports; the latter quotes a recent convert from Islam to ultra-Zionism. - Mustafaa 07:46, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my language wasn't clear. I meant that at least some people have made those allegations, not necessarily Palestinian Christians. Here's at least one Palestinian Christian who attributes increased emigration to both "a result of the occupation and the growth of extremism"[7] Here's a CNEWA report that lists "Selected accounts of Christians expressing feelings of intimidation/persecution due to rise in Muslim extremism" as being an issue: [8] Here's a BBC report that says "The rise of Islamic militancy is also a factor, though one that is hotly debated." [9] Regarding the relationship of Islam and Christianity in the P.A., though not 100% on this topic, here are some interesting comments by a Palestinian Christian regarding the proposed Palestinian Constitution:[10] Regarding "ultra-Zionism", it's not a faith I've heard of before; I had thought Shoebat had himself become a Palestinian Christian ;-) Jayjg (talk) 17:15, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, Your links all attest to Israeli occupation as the primary cause. Together all these links make a strong case for this entry to be deleted and to be included under the general entry Palestinians.

We do not have any sources on these judgements by two American courts, I find it odd that people are granted asylum when they are fleeing an entity not recognized as a 'state' by the American government. This seems to contradict the UN Convention relating to the status of refugees from 1951, although it appears the US is not a signatory. I again notice there are no international sources being used like Amnesty, HRW, UN etc.

The links list a number of causes, occupation being an important one. Here are more examples of articles outlining other causes: "Palestinian Christians being terrorized in Bethlehem" [11] "Islamic Treatment of Palestinian Christians" [12] But if its international sources you want, would this be a start? "Some Palestinian Christians have experienced intimidation and harassment by radical Islamic groups and PNA officials."[13] [14] On the one hand Muslim intimidation is clearly not the only reason Palestinian Christians are leaving; on the other hand, it doesn't seem reasonable to ignore it as one of the reasons. Jayjg (talk) 18:37, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
All the sources point to Israel as the reason why people emigrate. I believe we have enough articles now to reach a conclusion. A distinction should be made between what 'some' people allege, and what can be proved in terms of legal measures, systematic discrimination and particular cases etc. There are no references to the latter, quite the contrary Palestinian Christians seem to do very well. The data on emigration and their numbers seem very uncertain. So I still think the article needs a serious re-write and/or be re-written to be included under the general entry for Palestinians.
As there is disagreement on this article (whether it should be here, and if so on its contents) I would like for it to be labelled accordingly? Thanks. Tiller1 23:17, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
All the articles point to the current conditions as a reason people emigrate, and list a number of reasons. I'll add a POV warning to the article. Jayjg (talk) 14:55, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If I may, please, I originally started the article. The main reason we left in 1948 and 1967 was the war and conquest of our land and livelihood. My whole family was/is involved in tourism, (many aspects of it), and of course there has been precious little of that recently.
I have had opportunities to ask why my folks left, why the family could not stay? There was no way. In 1948 our home in West Jerusalem became part of the 'green line', after returning from Lebanon in 1949 until 1967 we settled in the 'French Hill' area, and after that conflict the family business was closed by the Israelis and we left my family refusing to sign the necessary occupation papers. No business, no money, no way we could stay (I was 4 1/2, my siblings were 2 and 11 months). We were able to come to Canada, with the assistance of church groups as we were Christian. Same with others that went to California, Europe, others went to Jordan, and yet others to various Arab countries.
It is a false myth to assume that there is any REAL friction between Muslims and Christian Arabs. ALL WE WANT IS FREEDOM FROM OCCUPATION!
My Godfather recently passed away, I only knew him when I was a baby and in 1984-1985 when I spent some time in Palestine. He had worked his whole life in the Catholic church. His widow is selling the home in Jerusalem, why? Because of the Apartheid wall, and her inability to see her remaining family.
Thus this article should stay, and explain our own Christian Diaspora within the larger context of the Palestinian Diaspora. Many Palestinian Christians are simply not able to remain anymore, precisley because of the occupation and lack of any resolution to a conflict that we are slowly losing anyway. Many keep telling me anyway, do not get your hopes up, if a Palestinian state is made, it will end up being an Islamic State, and I do not buy that. We, Palestinians (and especially the Jerusalemites) were/are, traditionally, the most liberal, educated, and most accepting of other cultures, due to interaction with the West throughout history.
JMHO,Joseph 03:43, May 3, 2005 (UTC)


Maybe you'd be interested in improving the article on Arab Christians as well.Yuber 00:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Well I had a quick look, and I think it could be improved, I will but can't now. I will post thoughts, suggestions, and examples on the relevant talk pages first. Then we can work in changes. Sound good? Joseph 00:40, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some changes in context

I stumbled upon this entry while actually doing research for another one. Being from Palestine, I felt I should correct a lot of contextual gaps.

The Palestinian Christians are a group of Palestinians who follow Christianity. They make up 6% population, according to Bernard Sabella.

There should be some better sources other than that one article.

Most Palestinian Christians see themselves as Arab Christians, although some, in a similar way to the Lebanese Maronites, reject this label and claim to be descended from people who were present before the coming of the Arabs.

These two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Those who consider themselves Arab now claim so as belonging to the Arabic-speaking world, even if their ancestry is not beduin Arab (which it mostly isn't).

This is reflected in the large number of prominent Palestinians that are Christian, including Hanan Ashrawi, Edward Said, George Habash, and Raymonda Tawil, mother of Yassir Arafat's wife Suha.

Raymonda Tawil was famous long before her daughter married Arafat, she should not be listed here solely as his mother-in-law

Some explain the difference between Christians' and Muslims' rate of emigration not by personal preference but by the idea that Christian emigrants are usually more successful in being accepted in historically Christian Western countries than Muslim ones; others suggest that the increasing influence of Islamism in Palestinian politics and society is perceived as threatening to Palestinian Christians. A third reason given is the alleged mismanagement and condescending attitude towards Arab faithful by the Greek-speaking and largely Greek-born leadership of the Jerusalem Orthodox Church.

What does "the difference between Christians' and Muslims' rate of emigration" mean in this context? It wasn't referred to earlier in the text in order for it to be explained here. Define first before explaining it. The third reason I deleted, because although it is a point of major friction between local Palestinians and the Greek church, it is by no means a factor for emigration.

There has been a substantial amount of anti-Christian incidents carried out in areas governed by the Palestinian Authority.

"A substantial amount" needs to be substantiated.

Many claim that this represents a pattern of deliberate mistreatment by the PA;

This is highly doubtful unless can be verified by reliable sources - that it is a deliberate pattern - since there are quite a few high-profile officials in the PA (not those mentioned in this article).

According to some Christian sources, Palestinian Islamists in the West bank are using violence and threats of terror to scare Christians out of Palestinian controlled area. This is discussed more fully in the article on Persecution of Christians.

Again, this needs to be sourced before being reinserted - In reality, even Hamas has some Christians on its candidates' list for the upcoming parliamentary elections. Ramallite (talk) 16:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Partisan links

From WP:V "In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight." Many of the links recently added fall under this category, since they are not researched or verifiable but exist solely to propagate a "f*** the Palestinians" concept. Also, an obscure radio talk show host's personal opinions are not encyclopedic material. We do not go on the Israel article and insert some malicious comment made by an Islamic imam in London. Also, the founders of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, some of the more radical wings of the PLO, are Palestinian Christians. Wikipedia is not meant to be another standbyus.com outlet or a "f*** the Palestinians" forum. For that, we have enough hate-mongering sites around the internet. Ramallite (talk) 13:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

In that case do a quick Google search of "Palestinian Christians treatment", see what you get. It is not like I pick and choose. Seems to me like someone is trying to hide reality... --Shamir1 22:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Possibly some of these links could be put in if the article had a section as such of "Allegations of mistreatment" maybe? JoshuaZ 18:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
There are already 5 external links that discuss the treatment of Palestnian Christians which I think is relatively too much for an article this short. Another problem with the links that Shamir1 is adding are unreliable and very biased, why would we feature and advertise web sites like that if we are building a neutral and disinterested encyclopedia? Wikipedia is not Fox News, period. -Inahet 19:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inserted comment

This comment:

The number of Christian Palestinians worldwide is much higher than 10%. About 10 years ago, Christians constituted about 15-20% of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) population.

was inserted improperly in the references section, and is unsubstantiated. Rather than just delete it in my reversion, I thought I'd put it here, in case anyone wants to take it and make it a legit addition. Akradecki 03:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Numbers

Reliable estimates of the number of Arab Christians, which in any case, just as the number of all Arabs, especially Muslim Arabs, depends on the definition of "Arab" used, vary. Today Christians only make up 9.2% of the population of the Near East. In Lebanon they now number about 39% of the population, in Syria they make up about 10 to 15%, in the Palestinian territories before the creation of Israel estimates range as high as 40%, but due to mass emigration the contemporary figure is 3.8%, and in Israel Arab Christians constitute 2.1% (or roughly 10% of the Israeli Arab population). In Egypt, they constitute about 6% of the population. Most North and South American and Australian Arabs (about two-thirds) are Arab Christians, particularly from Syria, the Palestinian territories, and Lebanon.

- (1998) Christian Communities in the Middle East. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-829388-7.

- https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.128.77.116 (talk) 21:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

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