Talk:Pablo Casals
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I've added back the "Pablo" version of his name - it is very common in English speaking countries, and as we're dealing with an article in English here, it has to be mentioned. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "Pablo" is more common than "Pau" in English, meaning the article really ought to live at Pablo Casals - I'll leave it for the time being, however. --Camembert
Yes, all the examples I've seen of printed references and labels of his phonograph records for most of his career, both in the USA and Latin America, exclusively refer to him as "Pablo Casals". Pau may have been his real name, but professionally in many countries he was well known as "Pablo". -- Infrogmation 17:45 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I have been reading his live in a Catalan Enciclopedia, and I noticed that his real name was PAU CASALS i DEFILLÓ, not pablo carlos salvador casls i defilló.
- I've decided to move it here, to "Pablo" (at last). --Camembert
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- Camember, your imposition is an abuse! You are disrespectful with Pau Casals, you do not respect the natural and original name of a person, nor you respect her memory, the memory of somebody who struggled for the freedom of the people and received the medal of the peace of the ONU. He spoke to the ONU in the year 1971, where was received like Pau Casals. This man who for the fascist dictatorship (I do not speak about you, camember) of Franco had to run away from her Catalonia and went exile himself, this Spanish dictatorship that so much hatred sowed against the Catalans. I claim Pau Casals for her name, I claim Pau Casals that he composed the hymn of the ONU, I claim Pau Casals that he struggled for the Freedom and the Peace, which never accepted the IMPOSITION. Camember, your imposition is an abuse!
His name wasn't Pablo but Pau. It's easy as that. I know about his live and I'm sure that this mistake would offend him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Great Mike (talk • contribs) 12:43, 8 August 2006 .
How long did Pablo live in Puerto Rico? -- Antonio 100 percent Boricuaaaaaaaaaaaa!! Martin
- From 1956 up to his death in 1973, as far as I know (his move to Puerto Rico is noted in the article under the "Later years" heading). --Camembert
Camembert, the most common name of Pau or Pablo in english is Paul.
Pau Casals was catalan and very proud of it. If you use the castelian name of paul, pablo, I supose he will prefered if you used the form: (...) also known as Pablo Casals.
Your name is Camembert nobody calls you cheese cause is the most common name in english.
Is Catalan now a separate nationality to Spanish? I've noticed that several articles about artists are being amended (by the same person, I think) from Spanish to Catalan Spanish. Is this being overly sensitive? Surely the Catalan part can be included in the main body of the article and not be treated as a separate nationality? Does Catalonia issue separate passports from Spain? Are nationals of Manchester to be referred to as "Mancunian English"? Will Americans from Miami now be called "Floridian Americans" and will we start seeing references to "Québecois Canadian", "Corsican French" "Tuscan Italian" as nationalities? Orbicle 15:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Orbicle, Catalonia is a nation since more than 1000 years ago. Now we are administratively under 2 different states that his the kingdom of Spain and the republic of France. On the 11th September of 1714, Catalonia lost his freedom in a historical resistance in Barcelona. How he spoke the ONU Pau Casals: "I am Catalan, Catalonia had the first parliament of the world". No, we have own passport, it is not allowed us to have it. But we struggle for Catalonia, a millennial nation! --sebas 84.77.198.72 20:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name Pablo Casals.
This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.
Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.
Thank you! -- Correction: Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name PAU Casals.
This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.
Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.
Thank you!
He wanted to be named Pau (not Pablo) because Pau was his name in catalan, his language, and specially because PAU in his language means PEACE. I don't understand why english wikipedia are not able to respect something than even spanish wikipedia respects. --reventlov
[edit] Name move?
I just reverted a unilateral move of the article from "Pablo" to "Pau". Personally I am fine with either title, but please let us have some discussion and consensus first. A note to those suggesting that "Pablo" is only the imposition of the Franco Fascist dictatorship, that he lived his later life elsewhere-- "Pau" was not illegal in Puerto Rico or other countries where he was still commonly billed as "Pablo". However if someone could please quote Casals' OWN WORDS stating he wished to be known as "Pau", that would probably make a strong case -- Infrogmation 18:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Infrogmation, in 1972, Pau Casals and his wife Marta created the Pau Casals Foundation for the purpose of bequeathing to Catalonia the whole legacy the maestro had conserved in the house in Sant Salvador. The people of Catalonia were to be the guardians of that heritage.Which is the name that he puts for the foundation? He is very expensive, Pau Casals Foundation! The link at this article, in english. Link to the oficial heritage of Pau Casals, the Pau Casals Fundation, in Catalan, English, Spanish and French. Link to the original letter of Pau Casals, signed by Pau Casals. Pau Casals was a fighterof the peace. It always liked him to say Peace, Peace and Peace, and he explained that this was the way of his life to the same as that of his name (his name, Pau, means Peace in catalan) -- Abat sise 13:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
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I don't know if it's possible to quote him asking to be called by his name, maybe he wasn't relly bothered with the name "Pablo"... However, what he said infront of the United Nations will give you a general idea about his point of view: Words of gratitude pronouced by Pau Casals in front of the United Nations Assembly when he was awarded the Medal of Peace on the 24th of October of 1971:
"This is the greatest honour I have ever received in my life. Peace has always been my greatest concern. Yet in my childhood I learned to love it. My mother—an exceptional, brilliant woman—used to speak to me about it when I was still a child, because in those years there were also a lot of wars. Moreover, I am Catalan. Catalonia had the first democratic Parliament much before than England. And it was in my country where there was a beginning of united nations. At that time—the eleventh Century—they met in Toluges—today in France—to speak about peace, because the Catalonian people of that time were already against war. That is why, the United Nations, which work only for the ideal of peace, are in my hearth, because everything relating to peace goes directly there. "I have not played the cello in front of an audience since long years but I think I must do it this time. I am going to play a melody from the Catalonian folklore: The singing of the Birds. Birds, when in the sky, go singing: Peace, peace, peace. And this is a melody that Bach, Beethoven and all great people would have admired and loved. And, in addition, it springs up from the soul of my country: Catalonia."
As you can see, he claims to be Catalan several times. He also says that Catalonia is his county, not Spain. Because of that we can esaly asume that he would like to be called by the Catalan form of Pablo (Pau). You can also see that he was a peace lover and Pau, in Catalan, means "peace" ("Pablo" doesen't mean nothing in any language). (unsigned comment by User:Great mike)
- Note: please sign your discussion comments. (Just put 4 tildes ~ in a row at the end of a discussion comment and your user name and time of comment will be added automatically.) Your statement is poetic, but rather than "asume" we try to go for evidence. Eg, if no statement in his own words can be found, how did he sign his name, if the letters of the first name are legible? How was he billed when performing in nations other than Spain under Franco? Legal documents-- contracts, passport? -- Infrogmation 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
A letter signed by "Pau" Casals: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exipc.jpg --reventlov
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- First of all, let me apologise for editing the main page without reading the discussion above. It was such a clear thing for me that I couldn't think there would ever be such a discussion.
- Let's go to the facts. There are two things being discussed here:
- 1) Casals Catalan vs Spanish, and
- 2) Pau vs. Pablo.
- Let's try to shed some light on these.
- 1) The first point is clear: Casals was both, Spanish and Catalan. He was born (and lived for many years) in a state called Spain, so he's Spanish. No doubt. However, he was born (and grew up) in a region which some centuries ago was independent from the rest of Spain, with some different traditions and culture: Catalonia. So, because of this, he also was Catalan, no doubt of this either. There's a point: obviously not all Spanish people are Catalan, but also not al Catalan people are Spanish, since the historical Catalonia extended e.g. to the South of France. So, it should always be said that he was Catalan and Spanish.
- But being isn't the same as feeling. Did Casals felt more Catalan than Spanish? I haven't read his memories, so I am not an authority on that, but from his UN speech it seems he felt Catalan. The quotes in the Pau Casals Foundation website also suggest that: “This house is the expression and synthesis of my life as a Catalan and an artist”, etc.
- 2) His name was Pau. I think everybody agrees on this: he signed Pau (jpg above), he called his foundation "Pau Casals", etc. On the other hand, I can accept he was called Pablo by many people, so I understand the "Pablo" appearing in the article. However, I wouldn't say "commonly known as" but "also known as", since I think this would better fit the reality: some of us knew him as Pau, others as Pablo, but we cannot survey the world population to know which of the two forms is more used.
- Other things I think should be changed are:
- - The page title: I think it should be "Pau Casals" (like in the first sentence of the article), and have the "Pablo Casals" article redirect to here.
- - The disambiguation page only presents "Pablo", that's really strange for me. I think the disambiguation page should be complete and have both "Pau" and "Pablo".
- - The "Pablo Casals Cello Foundation" that appears in the text should be cited as its true name, "Pau Casals Foundation" (I believe the registered one is "Fundació Pau Casals", but they also translate the "Fundació" to "Foundation" at their website). Notice no "Cello" in the name: the foundation runs both cello fellowships and activities and Casals' museum.
- Just a final comment: it's funny seing so much discussion in the English page about Pau Casals, when in the Spanish page (where politics and language matters about topics like that could be more passionate and even violent) there's no discussion at all, and everybody agrees on "Catalan" and "Pau".Ripero 01:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Pau Casals signs as Pau, not Pablo (see the jpg above). Pau Casals declares himself Catalan, not Spanish. Catalan and Spanish Wikipedias say "Pau Casals", not "Pablo Casals". Therefore, I think that the most appropiate name for the article is Pau Casals, and a redirection from Pablo to Pau, not the opposite.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 19:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. If it's a Catalan name it should be written the Catalan way and "Pablo Casals" to be a redirection page. -- Magioladitis 23:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- I've started looking in to this a little bit and am starting to come to a different conclusion based on material I've seen from when he was alive. I recently saw a signed photograph by Casals-- it is clearly signed "Pablo". I can place a copy of this on line for reference if you have any doubt. In the USA there is absolutely no legal restrictions nor presure against Catalan names; he could have called himself "Pau" if he chose. His recordings from when he was alive in the USA and Latin America are listed as "Pablo", and I have read a number of articles and interviews from when he was alive refering to him simply as "Pablo". I am starting to suspect that the campaign to remove any reference to him as "Pablo" is something from after he died, not necessarily going along with anything he insisted on himself. I also note that a google seach with the word "cellist" (to get English language results) shows 162,000 hits for "Pablo Casals" and 11,400 hits for "Pau Casals". I therefore suggest that "Pablo Casals" is the name he is most commonly known by in English. Googling simply "Pau Casals" gets 345,000 hits; while 549,000 for "Pablo Casals", suggesting it is more common even not considering language. I suspect that "Pablo Casals" was the name he commonly used internationally. I am therefore leaning towards leaving it "Pablo" for much the same reason that we have the article on the fellow born Ehrich Weiss at Harry Houdini or the many other examples where the article is at the name they were most commonly known by professionally rather than their birth name. Respectfully, -- Infrogmation 01:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
