User talk:Oshah

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[edit] Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Oshah, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Emmett5 16:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commanders of World War II

Really nice table Oshah, thanks, great proper start to the page! MarkThomas 22:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it really a good idea to have so many [citation needed] in article? I think it should be used only if something is disputed.--Staberinde 20:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I think you are mixing WP:NOR with WP:NPOV.
As it says in those policy pages, any major edit which does not have a source can be deleted in Wikipedia. Anyway, if something is not disputed, it should be quite easy to find a source on it (actually, what will be difficult, is finding a source which can cover up multiple facts, rather than just one sentence).
Citing our sources serves another important purpose for this article. It helps us weed out the notable commanders from the non-notable ones (if your commander is not mentioned in the major works, does he really deserve to be listed?).
What I have done is identify all the facts which are yet to be verified, so that when they are identified, we can safely remove the {{unsourced}} tag. Personally, I prefer the page as it is, rather than a blanket "this article needs more references" statement at the start without giving an indication which particular facts are unsourced.
Also, when references are found for the statement, I agree, that we should present that reference more sparingly (such as the entry for montgomery) --Oshah 23:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
So far you have put [citation needed] in every possible sentence. Heh, seems that even existence of Kuznetsov and Rydz-Śmigły is also disputed as they have that even at their names. In my opinion it makes article just plain ugly. Theorietically of course every damn award and participation in some battle can be sourced but it would take a lot of time(and about 500+ sources).--Staberinde 08:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Before we continue, are you ok if we continue discussing this issue on my talk page? (I don't know if you're properly notified on any changes) --Oshah 12:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, im fine with it.--Staberinde 13:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
About tagging every sentence. I agree that they make the article ugly. However, I don't think the best way to deal with that ugliness is to remove those tags blindly, because we would then risk passing off unencyclopedic/unverifiable content as verified (and in my view, one linesentence of unverifiable content in wikipedia is far uglier than ten thousand of those [citation needed] tags ever will be). However, to make the end result more readable, I've replaced those [citation needed] with [verification needed]. This should hopefully, make your fact-checking task easier to do (maybe a wikilink will be sufficient for verification, although WP:RS disagrees).
About tagging Kuznetsov and Rydz-Śmigły. I could not find an entry for them in the oxford companion. This could mean:
  • They are present, but I am not looking hard enough for them. Perhaps I should look under a different spelling/entry? (such as with Vatutin/Mao Tse-tung).
  • They aren't present, because the book I'm using isn't reliable enough. Despite being endorsed as one of the most reliable sources in the main WWII article, it could still miss some commanders out (maybe because of it being a paper encyclopedia), but that's all the more reason for you to provide a source which does mention Kuznetsov/Rydz-Śmigły as a notable commander.
  • They aren't present, because the commanders aren't truly notable. Now if this is the case (Not being sourced is a good reason for a commander not to be notable, at least in wikipedia), it is grounds for us to remove that person from this list. The commanders that have their names tagged, are people I cannot verify to be notable, hence question if they really ARE notable.
On your final point, this point has already been discussed on Talk:Commanders of World War II#Germany. The solution is to stick to just a few references, and list all our commanders using just those sources. --Oshah 15:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That what makes commander "notable" is problematical to say. For example Polish generals: Edward Rydz-Śmigły(invasion of poland) who wasn't in your book commanded a lot bigger armed forces in bigger scale campaing then Tadeusz Bór-Komorowski(warsaw uprising) who probably was there(as he isn't tagged). Also probably many chinese and japanese land commanders are not well known in west but that doesn't mean that they didn't fought large scale battles or campaings. But that's quite small part of problem, other part is sourceing all those n+1 awards, fates and other information. We agreed to discuss it here but now I thought that maybe it would be better to copy-paste that discussion to article's talk and also ask opinions of other users that have shown some interest to article(MarkThomas and Haber) as I am not sure what's best solution. Do you agree?--Staberinde 23:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

We can discuss it here or on the talk page (I don't really mind where). You are right, I was able to source Komorowski but not Śmigły. The only explanation I can think of why they think Komorowski was more notable was that Komorowski had more significant influence with the Polish resistance and the government, whereas Rydz kind of faded after his country was defeated. You may also have a point that the book is primarily anglo-centric (it details people like Mountbatten, Leigh-Mallory, Auchinleck, Percival, though the first three I think should really be added).
On Kuznetsov, I'm beginning to doubt his notability. He's not sourced, he's not mentioned in either the Battle of Caucasus or Operation Barbarossa. Heck, he's not even mentioned in the Hero of the Soviet Union article. He sounds like a perfect candidate for removal. --Oshah 00:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I copyed our discussion about references to [1].--Staberinde 11:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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