Talk:Oscar Nunez

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus to move. Both "Oscar Nuñez" and "Oscar Nunez" are mentioned in the lead of the article. The title of an article is important, but not so important as to spend so much time talking about it. As long as redirects are set up and the article is easy to find, everything will be fine. —Mets501 (talk) 01:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

• Oscar Nunez → Oscar Nuñez … Rationale: Oscar Nuñez is the correct spelling of the actor. --DrBat 16:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Strongly oppose. No case whatsoever has been made that this is a proper name for the article. No citations, no nothing. Not even verifiable sources to show that "Oscar Nuñez" is ever used, let alone that it would be the proper name to use in the title of this article. Note that, notwithstanding the deceptive, false, and misleading spelling used in the display text associated with all three articles in the "External links" (which are also the obvious sources of information for this article, since absolutely no other sources are cited), all three of those external link sources use the "Oscar Nunez" spelling which is the current article name. Note also that this display text was originally correct, of course, but dishonestly changed, in fact, by none other than User:DrBat in this edit. The burden is on the proponent of this move to make his case, and that hasn't even been attempted to be met. Gene Nygaard 16:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the name was first changed by Lego872 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oscar_Nunez&diff=prev&oldid=63684051). Furthermore, it is the spelling used on the official site of the american version of The Office (see http://www.nbc.com/The_Office/bios/oscar_nunez.shtml). --DrBat 16:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Lego872 didn't change the spelling in the external links to something not used in those external links. It was an unsupported change not based on any citation to a reliable source, but it wasn't deceptive like your change was. Gene Nygaard 16:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

What about http://www.nbc.com/The_Office/bios/oscar_nunez.shtml? --DrBat 16:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. The fact that the actor was born in Cuba is enough reason for using the correct Spanish spelling. The fact that the diacritic is not used in English media is most likely to be due to ignorance on the difference between both letters, n and ñ (as ny in canyon or nj in Banja Luka). Regards, --Asterion^talk 16:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Certainly not. Wikipedia:Naming conventions are based on how the person (thing, whatever) is best known in English, and in that regard must be based on current usage, not on speculation about somebody being born some place where they might have used a diacritic in his name, even though he left that place as a baby or whatever. Gene Nygaard 16:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

What about http://www.nbc.com/The_Office/bios/oscar_nunez.shtml and Template:Globalize? --DrBat 16:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not think you understand. Nunez is simply a spelling mistake. I also spell my surname without the diacritics in everyday English but insists on the correct spelling for important matters. As I would do were I ever have a wiki article on myself. Nuñez is right. Nunez could be kept as a redirect. --Asterion^talk 10:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

All of Mr. Nunez's roles save one are listed under "Nunez", not "Nuñez". Mr. Nunez has 100% control over how his name appears in the credits of any movie or TV show he appears in. If Mr. Nunez goes by "Nunez" by choice, it's not a mistake. It's a choice. And if it's a choice, it's fairly arrogant to say "No no, we know how your name is really spelled."

It's a fairly common practice in Hollywood to alter your own name if there's already someone else in the Screen Actor's Guild with the same name. Michael J. Fox's real middle name is "Andrew". He picked "Michael J. Fox" as his official Screen Actor's Guild name because there was already someone else in the Screen Actor's Guild named "Michael Fox". He gives various reasons for picking a "J" for his middle initial instead of using his real one of "A", and you may read about these reasons at the Michael J. Fox article if you're particularly curious.

Anyhow, it is probably very likely that there was already an Oscar Nuñez in the Screen Actor's Guild when Mr. Nunez started his acting career. So it is possible that Mr. Nunez goes by "Nunez" as his official Screen Actor's Guild name in order to avoid duplication.

All of the foregoing is, of course, speculation. But it fits what I know of how Hollywood and the SAG works. The bottom line is: In all of his listed roles, save one, he is listed as Oscar Nunez. In the DVD's for The Office, he is listed in the credits as "Oscar Nunez". So I am inclined to believe that whoever set up the page on Oscar Nunez at NBC's website made the same assumption that DrBat is making here, and made a "correction".

The preponderance of evidence indicates that, in his professional capacity as an actor, Mr. Nunez goes by the last name of "Nunez". Consequently, the page should stay where it's at, and he should be referred to "Nunez" throughout the article. If you can find verifiable information that he was born Oscar Nuñez, then you can put down something like "Oscar Nunez (born Oscar Nuñez) is a Cuban actor..." yadda yadda yadda.

All the best,

Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak}

12:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support If he was born in Cuba, then the correct name is "Nuñez" for sure. I doubt that he had his name officially changed just to remove the tilde. --Húsönd 16:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what his correct name is, nor does it matter whether he's had his name "officially" changed. Wikipedia policy is, and has always been, to list actors by the name they go by in their credited roles. Michael J. Fox's real name isn't "Michael J. Fox". His real, legal name is still "Michael Andrew Fox". He's never had it legally changed. Nonetheless, the article about him is at Michael J. Fox because that's the name he uses professionally.

For another example, look at the professional wrestler Triple H. Triple H's real name is Paul Levesque. That is his full, legal name. It's who WWE makes the checks out to. But that's not the name he uses professionally. Professionally he goes by the name "Triple H" (or "Hunter Hearst Helmsley"). His article is located at Triple H, not at Paul Levesque (though the latter is a redirect). Within his article, he is referred to primarily as either "Triple H" or as "Helmsley", again because that's his professional name.

I am perfectly willing to concede that Oscar Nunez was born Oscar Nuñez. I am even willing to concede that he probably hasn't legally changed his name, and just goes by "Nunez" in his credits because it's easier. The point I am trying to convey is it doesn't matter. What matters, insofar as Wikipedia policy is concerned, is what name he uses professionally.

And professionally, he uses the name "Oscar Nunez". Thus, the article needs to stay at "Oscar Nunez", and he should be referred to as "Nunez" throughout the article.

All the best,

Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak}

17:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that you are being completely accurate with your arguments. I do agree that the articles of personalities should be named according to the name by which they are the best known (artistic/professional names). However, I don't think this is the case of a badly chosen name form. This is just another situation of misleading spelling neglection, which often occurs due to the nearly always sloppy usage of diacritics in English. I did a further research on Oscar Nuñez. According to IMDb he is "sometimes credited as Oscar Nuñez". Therefore, if he is sometimes credited with his correct name, so should Wikipedia, a procedure that would perhaps encourage further crediting with the correct spelling. Best regards.--Húsönd 22:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

As I mention elsewhere on this page, Mr. Nunez has been credited once as "Oscar Nuñez", and 14 other times as "Oscar Nunez". In his current role on "The Office," he is credited as "Oscar Nunez". This is easily verifiable by renting or purchasing the DVDs for "The Office" and watching the credits.

As such, I don't believe that it is a mistake. Especially since other actors manage to get their diacritical marks listed in their roles without difficulty. (e.g. Elisabeth Röhm)

And even if it was a mistake, it is not Wikipedia's job to correct it. Wikipedia policy is that we report what other sources report. We don't know why he is credited so often as Oscar Nunez, but we know that, in every case but one, that's how he's been credited. So that is what we are obligated to report. Anything else is speculation and original research.

All the best,

Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak}

22:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with your statement "even if it was a mistake, it is not Wikipedia's job to correct it". It is our job to write things right. If we do, nobody can correct US. I would gladly take the one time he was credited as "Nuñez" and frown upon all the others. Best regards--Húsönd 23:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You may wish to review Wikipedia:Verifiability in that case, as it is one of the few official policies laid down by Jimbo from the beginning. The first line, once you get past the template boxes, reads "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." So far, everybody who is arguing in favor of the move to "Oscar Nuñez" is speculating as to the reasons why Mr. Nunez is credited as "Nunez" and not "Nuñez". And "speculate" is just a fancy word for "guess". No one actually knows. It may be that "Nunez" is exactly how he wishes to be credited, for whatever reason he may have.

The policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability requires us only to report what is known. And what is known is that, in the overwhelming majority of his roles (93.3%, if you're curious), he is credited as "Oscar Nunez".

All the best,

Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak}

23:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You are right about that. I actually wondered why would he allow his name to be misspelled in the credits. Maybe, as you say, he prefers it without the diacritic. But it might also be because he simply doesn't care about it (I personally find this one more probable). Unless it is referenced that he specifically chose the name without the diacritic, I think that it's up to us to decide the best form. As for the verifiability, "Nuñez" is verifiable. The fact that it is a less common form does not make it unverifiable. Best regards.--Húsönd 23:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but all that "verifiability" gets you is that we should at least have a redirect from or disambiguation page link for that spelling, and maybe a mention in the article maybe even if the verifiable usage is spurious. But it doesn't decide the question of what is the proper spelling to be used for the one available slot for the article name, which is exactly what this AfD requested move (DrBat started with a request for speedy deletion of redirect page) discussion is about. Gene Nygaard 02:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC) modified 02:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[Deindent] As I mention elsewhere on the talk page, it is quite common for actors to adopt modified versions of their name as their official Screen Actor's Guild if someone else is already registered with the same name. This is why Michael J. Fox goes by "Michael J. Fox" instead of just "Michael Fox". It may be that an "Oscar Nuñez" already existed on the SAG rolls, and Mr. Nunez felt that the easiest way to avoid duplication would be to drop the diacritical.

As for verifiable, the issue is whether we can verify that Mr. Nunez is credited thusly because of some mistake or oversight, rather than by his own personal choice. Right now, we have no idea other than our own guesses as to why he may be so credited. Until we can come up with a verifiable source to clear up the matter definitively, we are left only with what we can currently verify, which is that overwhelmingly he is credited without the diacritical.

Yours,
Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak}
00:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That is not so relevant. If we want to disambiguate we just do something like Oscar Nuñez (Argentinian actor) for the other notable actor (who by the way does not have its own wiki article yet). There is no need to pick Nunez for disambiguation reasons at all. --Asterion^talk 00:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with arguments from both sides. I'm glad about this discussion, this is one of the toughest cases of the diacritics war I've seen so far. Best regards.--Húsönd 00:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, I don't consider this a part of some "diacritic" war. If someone were to present verifiable information (an interview, say) with Mr. Nunez in which he stated something to the effect of "Yeah, my real name is Nuñez, but these gringo credit writers can't seem to write a tilde," then I would immediately and forthwith change my position and my opinion, and would wholly endorse a page move to Oscar Nuñez. Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak} 00:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that he'd be bitter or anything. Basically I guess he just comes to live with people not using the tilde when writting his surname. My point is that wikipedia needs to be accurate. On the other hand, does anyone know how does he pronounce his name? Is it /Nu-nes/ or /Nu-nyes/? Any interview with personal introduction on the DVD or similar? Cheers, Asterion^talk 00:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

No matter how he pronounces it, it would legitimately be spelled Nunez in English. Gene Nygaard 02:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Damn it, cut out the "sloppy" nonsense. We have every bit as much right to establish our own identity, by using the English alphabet when we write in English, as to any other people who have no better way of establishing their own identity by seeing how cute they can get with their letters they use. It is not an error to omit diacritics in using English. It is not an error for a person to write his own name without diacritics when writing in English, either, though whether he does or not and whether or not there are any Wikipedia:Reliable sources which address the issue of whether he does or not isn't particularly relevant. So if the people who doo write about him, and if someone is notable enough to warrant an article will most likely be written about, then how he is written about is how he is best known. He is credited with his correct name when he is credited as "Oscar Nunez". You have made absolutely no showing to the contrary. Gene Nygaard 22:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Gene, this is not the first time that I will ask you to please refrain from utilizing harsh language. Your aversion to diacritics is well-known to me and although I strongly oppose your views on this matter I still respect your position. I would appreciate the same stance from you. Above all, be civil. Thank you.--Húsönd 23:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have an aversion to diacritics. I have an aversion to the frequent misuse of them, in articles such as this one where they don't belong. I detest the actions people creating articles with diacritics and not creating redirects from the proper English alphabet spelling or spellings. I detest the actions of people who create article titles with diacritics in them, and fail to fix it so that they sort properly in categories. I do not have an aversion to diacritics.

I was merely asking you to be civil, to refrain from the namecalling and innuendo. The point is that this is not most often "ignorance" as you falsely characterized it, it is not "sloppy" as you falsely characterized it. Most typesetters and editors of newspapers and magazines in English, for example, are well aware that some people put all sorts of squiggles on their letters when they write in other languages. They are not ignorant of that fact. Yet they often choose to use the English alphabet in their own publications. They are perfectly within their rights in doing so--this is not an error of any sort. You have no legitimate complaint about their choice to do so.

What is wrong is the action of the diacritics-zealots, who often senselessly hide the information they themselves are adding from reasonable search engine searches, from category searches, and from links in other articles. Gene Nygaard 01:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Gene, please, you were not asking me to be civil. Civility is my biggest commitment on Wikipedia, you should really not treat such an important thing as civility with levity. Now, I think that you are completely mistaken about diacritics in English. Writing in English without diacritics a foreign word that has them, is indeed not an error. But no, it is NOT correct. The Latin alphabet allows many variations that are easy to grasp as long as someone is perfectionist enough to learn how to write with impecable flawlessness. Writing without the diacritics in English, as well as in any other language that does not have them, is acceptable at most. And I insist that writing in such way can only be justified by either misknowledge or carelessness. Limitations of the English alphabet are hard to have into consideration these days.

I agree that some editors should not forget to make redirect pages of their articles as spelled without the diacritics. But I don't think that's enough to cause such a revolt. If you do not have aversion to diacritics as you claim, well you sure look like you do to me, I have to say.--Húsönd 16:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The NBC Official "The Office" website, a more than reliable source, does use Ñ for the spelling [1].--Asterion^talk 23:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

But the TV show itself, an even more reliable source, does not use the Ñ for the spelling. Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak} 23:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support Aquilina 22:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. If this would have just been done, rather than "proposed" , it wouldn't have raised any eyebrows. The Office is the actor's current highest profile project, and he didn't want a tilde, it likely wouldn't be on NBC's site. BabuBhatt 18:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You mean like it's already not on his actual credits in the actual show? Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak} 19:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I would say that he is much more likely to know about, and approve of, the "Oscar Nunez" spelling which appears in the credits of the show. Anybody can post a website blurb throwing in extraneous squiggles. Gene Nygaard 21:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I estimate he has more input on the Web site, since he is merely supporting cast on television. BabuBhatt 21:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Why would some random web developer in the bowels of NBC's corporate offices have greater insight into how Mr. Nunez wants to be credited than the person who actually writes the credits for the show itself? Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak} 22:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, you ar just making assumptions, as am I, on which crew is most likely to have asked the actor. I don't know how to resolve the issue. BabuBhatt 23:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The resolution is quite simple. Wikipedia:Verifiability, which is one of the core policies of Wikipedia as a whole, requires that we only print that which is verifiable. And right now, the verifiable evidence is that Mr. Nunez is credited as "Nunez" 14 times out of 15 roles. Until someone can present verifiable information that these 14 instances were all somehow mistaken, we are obligated by Wikipedia policy to keep the page where it's at. Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak} 23:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It still would have raised eyebrows. But in the screwed up system here at Wikipedia, far too many people would have viewed it as shifting the burden of proof to those wanting to restore the original spelling, rather tha placing it on the proponenent of change to "Oscar Nuñez" as it should be and clearly is here. Gene Nygaard 21:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose until evidence is provided of use Ñ of by subject himself. Otherwise, this is original research. (Being born in Cuba is not an argument. Joan Chen was born in China but her Wikipedia article is not at 陳冲. And its not an ommission. If NBC can print Željko Ivanek's name in credits with a Ž, then they could print an Ñ if requested.) -  AjaxSmack  01:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

  This has already been verified. The NBC website is there, plus Nuñez is credited as such in "Forwards Backwards" episode of Malcolm in the Middle[[2]]. I will hunt down a few more guest star and small roles if I get the chance. Asterion^talk 02:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

  You may have missed this but part of the entries assigned to the Argentinian actor (Oscar Nuñez, as per imdb[3]) are actually for the Cuban-American actor (i.e. "Malcolm in the Middle", "The Steve Harvey Show", "The District", "Grounded for Life", etc). This basically proves that the Oscar Nunez we are discussing has been credited as Oscar Nuñez indeed. The spelling Nuñez is also used on "24 Day 3: 6:00 P.M.-7:00 P.M." (see [4], as it is also used for Malcolm in the Middle (see above)--Asterion^talk 03:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose I may regret getting into this fiery argument, but I must say that we should keep it as it is for now until we can get some confirmation from the source himself (an interview or something?). We have cited SO many conflicting but reputable sources. NBC.com says Nuñez, but why hasn't he been credited as that in ANY of the NBC episodes? If it's an error, why hasn't it been corrected in all this time? (I'm NOT supporting this argument; I'm playing devil's advocate.) IMHO (AND YES I MAY BE WRONG), I think it might not really matter to the actor, which is why it's use has been so laxed in the media and his crediting. My only solution is this: Perhaps the article can start out as Oscar Nunez (sometimes credited as Oscar Nuñez), etc. because I honestly can't see this problem getting solved. I'm actually quite surprised that this name issue has been argued to the level of religious or political matters (ie. evidence given on both sides, strong beliefs right and left, no real in-between views). Williamnilly 03:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose. I agree with the last guy. And, by the way, that "n" sounds very awkward :)) -- Raja Lon Flattery 19:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

  Obviously, as Ñ is a different letter with a different sound. Regards, Asterion^talk 19:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I knew that, it's like saying "nuniez" instead of "nunez". Raja Lon Flattery 19:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Not only not obvious, but also most likely not true. Granted, "n" often has a different sound from "ñ", but that's not the way what Asterion says reads to me. In fact, "n" usually has two different sounds in "Nunez". Gene Nygaard 13:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, as the second n is simply a ñ missing the tilde. The first one is pronounced [n]; the second, [ɲ]. This is why the tilde is clearly needed. Regards, Asterion^talk 13:37, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

No, not missing anything. There simply isn't an ñ in the English alphabet, that's all. Gene Nygaard 13:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, there were about 54,000 people in the United States with the "NUNEZ" surname in 1990, the 430th most common in the U.S.[5] My S.W.A.G. (unlike Husond, I will admit that I could be off a little bit) is that over 50,000 of them (or their parents, for those not doing their own spelling yet) would spell it "Nunez" in English, and a significant portion (maybe around half) of them would spell it "Nunez" even in Spanish. Gene Nygaard 14:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The point is this person was born in Cuba and as for Wikipedia:Naming conventions , "Latin-alphabet languages, like Spanish or French, should need no transliteration". There is no case for avoiding the usage of ñ in Wikipedia as being "not part of the English alphabet"; in the same way, there is no case for removing diacritics from names in wikipedia that come from any other language that uses latin alphabet. The only point up for discussion here is whether this particular actor is mostly known as Oscar Nunez or as Oscar Nuñez, as both spellings are verifiable. Your arguments for avoiding the letter ñ as being non-English are completely flawed. Thanks, Asterion^talk 14:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

For it not to be necessary for us to do a transliteration, you need to establish the fact that we are in fact doing a transliteration. That isn't the case here.

Furthermore, the jump from not necessary in one direction to necessary in the opposite direction is a logical fallacy. After all, we do have many articles such as Romania. Gene Nygaard 15:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

The Internet Movie Database lists all the shows where Oscar Nunez has credits. It also lists the instances where he has gone by another name. Out of 15 listed credits, only 1 is listed with the "Nuñez" spelling.

Mr. Nunez has complete, 100% control over how his name appears in the credits of any TV show or movie he appears in. So apparently he's mostly okay with being known as "Nunez" rather than "Nuñez", and in fact seems to prefer the former to the latter.

And if he prefers "Nunez", who are we to presume we know better?

All the best
Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak}
17:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

A further observation: There is already an existing "Oscar Nuñez" at the Internet Movie Database, and it is not the same Oscar Nunez being described in this article. It is a completely different actor. If you want to read about the subject of this particular article, you are directed to the "Oscar Nunez" link. Ξxtreme Unction|_{yakkity yak} 17:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

You may have missed this but part of the entries assigned to the Argentinian actor (Oscar Nuñez, as per imdb) are actually for the Cuban-American actor (i.e. "Malcolm in the Middle", "The Steve Harvey Show", "The District", "Grounded for Life", etc). This basically proves that the Oscar Nunez we are discussing has been credited as Oscar Nuñez indeed. --Asterion^talk 02:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The only official site here (and IMDB has been known to make mistakes before) lists him as "Nuñez". And it wouldn't be the first time two people shared the same name, though this Oscar is more notable.--DrBat 17:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

http://boards.nbc.com/nbc/index.php?showtopic=665346 --DrBat 23:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

There is also an Argentinian actor with the same forename and father's surname, Oscar Núñez. --Asterion^talk 23:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Only the "same" if you are talking about the English alphabet spelling, Oscar Nunez, of either his name or the different one proposed for the name of this article. If you don't fix the sort keys properly, they won't sort together even if they are in the same category. If you don't include the Nunez spelling, some search engine searches will find one and not the other in some searches. If you don't include both of those spelligs together with Nunez on the same disambiguation page, information remains hidden. Gene Nygaard 02:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Gene, you seem to have a problem with any diacritic. Your problem with users who may not find the right result could perfectly be dealt with simply by using a disambiguation redirect. --Asterion^talk 02:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, in this article, a redirect already existed. Nothing was broken, right, at least according to your logic. Everybody could find it. It had already been fixed, ages before this requested move was proposed. The category sorting was already correct. So why in the world are you pushing for a change, especially to a spelling different from the one normally used? Gene Nygaard 04:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of accuracy. In any case, I would like to remind you that I did not lodge this request myself. Extreme unction argued that Nunez has never used the alternative spelling. I then provided him with a succinct answer above on why I believe that this was not the case: The spelling has been used in previous credits (I ordered a rental copy of the 24 episode, I will even be able to provide a snapshot for further verification if required) and it is also used on the current NBC website, whose information most likely come from O.N.'s agent, therefore tacitly approved by the latter. There are maybe a multitude of reasons explaining why the tilde was never used on The Office series bur I still think that Wikipedia should use the more correct spelling. Best regards, Asterion^talk 07:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

So, what's this "accuracy" nonsense? Where in the world does the notion come that whenever a word is sometimes written with diacritics and sometimes written without diacritics, then the one with diacritics is automatically the "more correct" one? Where in the world does the notion that so far, when we have at least some evidence of exactly one web page uses diacritics in discussing a show which itself does not use those diacritics in the title, and the IMDB listings which do distinguish between spellings with diacritics and those without listing credits in 14 out of 15 as not using diacritics, that the one with diacritics is somehow "more accurate"? Why is something used 7% of the time more accurate than something used 93% of the time? Why does something so seldom used that so far the only evidence anybody seems to be able to find so far is one web page and one IMDB database listing out of 15 get to be "more accurate"?

Like I told Húsönd above (something he has not responded to), being able to "verify" (which is of course something different from truth of the underlying fact) that a reliable source has once spelled a name or other word with a diacritic gets you nothing more than a good argument that we ought to have redirect or disambiguation page link for that spelling. He acted like, and you seem to be following suit, that the mere verifiability of one instance of that spelling being used would somehow resolve the issue and answer the question at hand here. It does not.

I apologize for not having responded, I hadn't notice your comment above. Replying to it, I think that you are making no sense at all. How come you decide that "being able to verify (...) gets you nothing more than a good argument that we ought to have redirect or disambiguation page link for that spelling"? Gene, you are clearly impervious to opposite argumentation, and you let that your odd defense of the English alphabet (as you see it) compromise accuracy on Wikipedia. Frankly speaking, I'm used to your arguments by now and I already know that it's a waste of time trying to explain any position that goes contrary to your own. My position here is clearly stated and I'll just abandon this discussion. I am sure that we will meet again soon, in some other move proposal that involves any diacritic that you do not have aversion to. Regards.--Húsönd 02:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't dispute the fact that it is verifiable that, IIRC, in 14 of the 15 roles listed at IMDB, he is listed as being credited as "Oscar Nunez", do you?

You don't dispute that in the other reliable sources, as well as in IMDB, which were listed as external links when this discussion, he is listed as "Oscar Nunez", do you?

So could you please show me where it says in Wikipedia policy that if User:Husond can verify one case where something different is used, that is a trump card, so everyone else should just throw the hand in? Gene Nygaard 03:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I had vowed to leave this discussion, I don't think it's polite to leave questions unanswered. 1) No, I do not dispute that it is verificable that he has been credited as "Nunez", as I equally do not dispute that it is verifiable that he has been credited as "Nuñez". 2) No, I do not dispute that he is listed as "Oscar Nunez" in reliable sources, as I equally do not dispute that he is listed as "Oscar Nuñez" in reliable sources. 3) Could you please explain why do you keep on with this crusade against the diacritics, warring with all the editors that come across your unreasonable and stubborn positions, saturating us till exhaustion with your persistent arguments and futile attempts to manipulate Wikipedia's policies in order to excuse your attacks? Try checking this particular policy instead. Regards.--Húsönd 14:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You might just as well have stayed away, if you are only going to answer the rhetorical questions and sidestep the real one.

Don't be lecturing me about policy, especially policy that has no applicability here, while you persistently ignore the policies which do apply here (WP:NC, etc.). Gene Nygaard 15:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Where in the world does the notion "accuracy" is relevant in any case come from? The general, overriding naming conventions standard for determining which of several possible variants is chosen to fill in the one slot available for any article's name is not "accuracy". It is, in fact, this, set off in a box and in bold letters at the top of the main naming conventions page:

• "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

I do not have any problem with diacritics. I do have big problems with illogical reasoning such has been exhibited here, more convoluted even than the squiggles they try to stack a mile high atop Vietnamese letters, something I have run across far too often in similar discussions in other cases as well. Gene Nygaard 10:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Gene, N and Ñ are different letters and are pronounced differently. Using Ñ is certainly more correct (and has been used by the actor and/or actor's agent before), as it offers a guidance to visitors. If I were really being pedantic, I would argue instead for Núñez, as the name is spelled in Spanish. As it is quite obvious that we are not going to convince each other, I do not think I have anything else to say to you. I respect your opinion but I cannot share it. We should let other people join in this survey and then wait for an uninvolved admin to decide. Regards, Asterion^talk 17:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

False. "Nunez" is most certainly not, in general, pronounced differently from "Nuñez" in the English language. Leaving the diacritic off does not imply any change in pronunciation whatsoever. Furthermore, "Núñez" could never be "more correct"; it is in fact patently incorrect, since there is no indication whatsoever that it has ever been used with respect to this subject. That even goes far beyond Wikipedia:No original research and into the realm of utter nonsense. To suggest so, just clearly indicates that you have no respect whatsoever for the accuracy of this encyclopedia nor for following the rules established by our naming conventions. Gene Nygaard 18:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You're misreading my comments. What I meant was that a non-verifiable use would have been "Núñez" but we have no evidence of the actor ever using the diacritic accent. While we do indeed have it for the letter "ñ". The fact that O.N. has been credited as Oscar Nuñez does indicate that he does himself discriminate between both sounds /n/ and /ny/. In any case, that is academic. Nuñez spelling has been used before. There are no rules in wikipedia against using diacritics. If a majority of editors believe the name should be spelled using "ñ", I cannot see while this should not happen. Regards, Asterion^talk 18:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

What????????????????????????????????????????????

Balderdash! I've got to call you on that one.

Just how in the world does the fact that someone created an article here, at the normal spelling by which this person is best known in English, "indicate that he [the subject of the article, who had nothing to do with the article here] does himself discriminate between both sounds /n/ and /ny/"? There is no United States law requiring people who want to use that phoneme to put silly little squiggles on the letters they use, is there? What language police do you imagine us to have? There's no California law or New York law requiring a movie or television producer to put squiggles on a letter if it is going to be pronounced that way, is there? There is no law anywhere requiring any movie producer to use any particular set of letters whatsoever in listing credits in a movie, is there?

There are thousands of people in the United States who use the Nunez spelling and the "/ny/" pronunciation [and no, I have no intention of verifying that; any reasonable person knows that it is true, and I'll assume you fall into that category]. There may also be a few who use some other pronunciation, but I suspect they are few and far between, and don't recall ever hearing anyone use anything else myself. Gene Nygaard 18:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC) That's "use" in reference to their own names, in case my intended meaning wasn't clear. Gene Nygaard 19:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Gene, O.N. has used that silly little squiggle in the past. It is basically up to us to decide whether this needs to be taken into consideration or not. Whether we respect this or give more weight to its most recent and successful role in The Office, where in the credits it is not used (but it is in the official website, etc). Asterion^talk 19:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

What's that got to do with the misinformation you've been spewing about pronunciation, and your speculation that he'd pronounce it different depending on how he spelled it?

We don't know that "he" has used them; we can perhaps imply that he did not strongly object to their use, but even that is really just speculation. All we really know for sure, and all we really need to know, is that on an occasion or two, somebody else has used them in his name, in a context which he was likely to be personally aware of, and that many times his name has been used by somebody else without them, in similar situations that he was also likely to be personally aware of. But those are situations that are "set in stone", so to speak—unlike a Wikipedia article, nobody is going to go in after the fact and change them on the films. But I don't see that whether or not he has ever used them is all that important; what is important is how people know him, how they'd look for information about him.

Besides, like I told you and Husond, all that gets you, even if "verified", is a good argument for including a redirect. Of course, somebody (neither you nor me nor the proponent of the move) had already created that redirect four weeks before this proposed move even came up. Any potential problems had already been solved, except for the misleading and dishonest changes by DrBat to imply that the sources listed used something different from what they actually used. Gene Nygaard 19:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Gene, I would appreciate if you calm down a little, please. You are using very strong words and undoubtfully making serious accusations. As I have previously said, we should let someone else to express their views on the survey and an uninvolved admin to finally take care of the WP:RQM if it proceeds. The guy was born in Cuba, all his family is from Cuba and he speaks native Spanish. There is no misinformation on saying that a native Spanish speaker would pronounce his name as [Nunyes] (not [Nunyeth] because seseo, of course). I cannot understand your logic either: If the name is spelled "Nuñez" is certainly due to "somebody else" but if down as "Nunez", it is O.N.'s choice. You are making assumptions for which you have no verifiable evidence either. Regards, Asterion^talk 20:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

"the misleading and dishonest changes by DrBat". Yes, I have a sinister agenda to have the n in Oscar's name changed to an ñ! You've caught me and foiled my dastardly plans. --DrBat 20:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Stop throwing out red herrings, useless information unrelated to the discussion here, which has to do with the spelling to use in the article name.

Just because you know strange words I've never heard of, even though you don't know how spell it "correctly" (the name of the Wikipedia article should be the "correct" spelling, after all, according to the logic you've expressed elsewhere), that doesn't mean that it has any relevance whatsoever to this discussion here.

What in the world does ceceo have to do with your claimed differences in pronunciation between this name spelled with an "n" versus an "ñ"?

What in the world does ceceo ever have to do with Cuban Spanish, which would seem as perhaps the most likely (but certainly not necessarily) what he would speak, in any case? Are you just trying to make the point that just because you know that some spelling is a "Spanish" word, and it is using all those fancy squiggles, that still doesn't necessarily tell us how various people are going to pronounce it? What's the big surprise in that? Not a whole lot better than sticking to the English alphabet, is it? Gene Nygaard 21:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Z can be pronounced as [s] or as [th], the former is common in Latin America and Andalusia, where the tendence originated. Any other wikipedian would have appreciated learning something new (this is after all an encyclopedia). You simply grabbed the wrong end of the stick once again. I am just tired of your failure to assume good faith and offensive comments. Good night, Asterion^talk 21:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I knew you were talking about the z; what is completely unfathomable is why you were doing so. It has no possible relevance of any kind whatsoever to either this nomination nor to your previous ludicrous claims that the subject of this article would pronounce his name differently depending on whether he spelled it "Nunez" or "Nuñez" in English. Gene Nygaard 22:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, Gene. On a different issue, it is *not* 14 out of 15 times spelled as Nunez in the IMDB, as you said, but most likely fifty fifty as I have already explained you, because most of the previous remarkable roles of O.N. (Malcolm in the Middle, 24, etc) were credited to Oscar Nuñez, the Argentinian actor. So that argument is flawed indeed. Regards, Asterion^talk 07:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It most certainly is 14 of 15 times in the IMDB. That has already been verified.

No, that's not a flaw in my argument in any way at all. The fact remains that his is beyond a shadow of a doubt often credited as "Oscar Nunez". It doesn't matter if you verify one or a thousand cases where it is different, that in itself cannot decide the issue at hand here. That can only be a factor in our decision; it is not a deciding factor by any means.

Furthermore, there is no mention of Malcolm in the Middle in this article. There is no citation to any reliable source either in the article or on this talk page showing that this actor ever played in that series. There is no reliable source cited for your off-hand claims that IMDB is wrong. Just an absolutely prohibited original-research claim that the actor IMDB says appeared in some series did not do so, totally irrelevant when it comes to legitimately including it in the article, is all we have so far. It's just a non-issue, at least so far. It never could be the deciding factor, no matter if you can meet the criteria of Wikipedia:Verifiability or not, because clearly there are two legitimate possibilities, only one which can fill the slot for this articles name, and one or more others that will need to lead to the same information. Gene Nygaard 11:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Did you even bother to check O.N.'s biography on the NBC website?

Nuñez's television credits include "Malcolm in the Middle," "24," "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "Reno 911," "The District" and "Mad TV." Most recently, Nuñez created and sold a television pilot to Comedy Central titled "Halfway Home." In film, he has appeared in "The Italian Job," "Reno 911: Miami," and "When Do We Eat?"

Most of those roles have been credited to the Argentinian actor by mistake (and, Gene, please don't you tell me there's no mistake because I have watched Nueve Reinas and Vivir Mata several times, and that Oscar Nuñez is definitely not the same guy as The Office's). As I said, it is 50-60% for Nuñez spelling. Best regards, Asterion^talk 17:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I didn't bother to check that, and there was no reason for me to do so. That's not what Wikipedia:Verifiability is all about. All I was saying is that "Asterion says IMDB made a mistake" doesn't fly.

But, if you are going to take that route, let's have a little truthfulness, okay. Only two of those roles you claim are mentioned on the NBC website are credited at the IMDB Oscar Nuñez page and not at the Oscar Nunez page. 1) Malcolm in the Middle, 2) The District. In addition, there are your unverified claims above that two other roles should also be attributed to this article, but that remains to be seen.

So that makes it 3 out of 17 roles, with an outside chance that you could eventually get it to 5 out of 19, but no more. So, 50-60%? I don't know where you came from, but we have better math teachers where I live.

Of course, you are also presuming that it is IMDB who are wrong, rather than NBC who are wrong. That is not yet verified in any way. Since neither of the shows Malcolm in the Middle nor The District are NBC shows, I'd say that as a rough starting point, it is more likely that IMDB is correct and that NBC is wrong, than the other way around, especially when the IMDB database is a collaborative effort and the NBC web page is a one-author story primarily related to his appearance on one NBC show, rather than having a primary purpose of collecting information on all of his roles. Gene Nygaard 18:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Even though IMDB has mistakenly attributed some of the Cuban-American Oscar's roles on the Argentinian Oscar page (and this isn't the first time they've made mistakes, fyi)? 'No mistakes' indeed. --DrBat 19:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• Relisting to gain better consensus. --Dijxtra 08:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Support If the NBC Bio about him has the Tilde above the N then i say yes. I would trust the NBC Bio over The IMDB bio http://www.nbc.com/The_Office/bios/oscar_nunez.shtml --Lego872 23:10, 2 October 2006

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.