Talk:Orthodox Judaism

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[edit] Changes in article

The following change was made; however, I am going to revert it, and explain why. RK

Since there is no one unifying Orthodox body, there is no one official statement of principles of faith. Rather, each Orthodox group claims to be a non-exclusive heir to the received tradition of Jewish theology, usually affirming a literal.

Orthodox Jews really do hold that they exclusively are heir to the received tradition of Jewish theology. They publicly and repeatedly state that all forms of Judaism are heretical or false, with the exception of Orthodoxy. If that doesn't fit the definition of the word exclusive, then nothing does. Many Orthodox groups do not even respect the validity of other Orthodox groups. RK

to outright rejection of modernity as sinful. You have to have a narrow definition of modernity before you will find any Orthodox group who will agree with that statement. Ezra Wax

Well, of course few Orthodox groups would state that they hold this position in this language, because Orthodox groups don't use such terminology. Secondly, we are using a narrow definition of modernity. In fact, we linked to the definition that we are using. Please read it. You will see that much of what we call modernity is explicitly and/or implicitly rejected by Orthodox Judaism. RK

[edit] Core of Judaism seems to not be NPOV

'Orthodox Judaism is the core of Judaism and is characterized by:'

Seems to me that non-Orthodox Jews might take issue with Orthodox Judaism being identified as the core of the religion. Jdavidb 19:22, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the last headline should read like that :"Core of Judaism" seems not to be NPOV :-))). Sometimes spellos are more than enlightening (Freud mentioned that..)

[edit] Why remove the context?

Jayjg, why did you remove the sentencs about two groups and label it as a possible "POV" violation? Wikipedia policy has always allowed, and in fact required, articles to differentiate between mainstream groups and minority groups. In an article on American politics, it would be factually incorrect, as well as a POV violation, to present NORMAL, the very tiny fringe political party to legalize marijuana use, as being of equal importance in the role that the Republican and Democrat parties play. Like it or not, NORMAL has failed to make a significant impact in the American political scene; the number of votes they get for their Presidential, Senatorial or Congressional candidates is less than minimal. Most Americans probably don't even know that this group exists. RK

Similarly, we have the same responsibility to accurately present Jewish groups. This article notes the two large Orthodox Jewish groups in North America, the Orthodox Union and its affiliated RCA, and the Agudath Yisrael. It also mentions the smaller group, the National Council of Young Israel. For the sake of completeness, it even mentions two tiny fringe groups that most Jews don't even know exist. Your edit of the article gives no such information; all the context has been deleted. These tiny groups have virtually no public support, let alone knowledge of their existence. Their inclusion on this webpage at all is grossly disproportionate to their size and impact; I added them for comparison, for their curiosity value, and frankly, because I sometimes have OCD in regards to completeness; I like to list every possibility, even the fringe ones. However, to be fair and give an accurate portrayal of Orthodox Judaism, we are obligated to note that these groups are tiny, are widely considered to be religious extremists - even by their fellow Orthodox Jews - and they are also literally unknown to most Jews. Without this infomartion readers of this article would be misled as to their role in the Jewish community. Of course, how this information is presented is important, and I agree with you that we need to present such info in an NPOV fashion. RK 00:57, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

"Fringe" is almost always inherently POV. With political parties you have a way of measuring these things; typically votes, perhaps funding or membership. But how did you measure "fringe" in these cases? "Tiny" is generally POV as well; most American Rabbinic organizations have at most a couple of thousand members; why would one organization with 2,000 members be "mainstream", and another with 650 members be "tiny"? And the statements that "most American Jews have never heard of them" applies equally well to Agudat Israel and even the Orthodox Union. However, most Orthodox Jews have heard of all of these groups, including the "fringe" ones. In any event, since no polls have been done measuring how many American Jews have heard of any of these groups, the statements are simply personal opinion. Jayjg 02:18, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The OU and RCA represent many, many American Jews. In contrast, the Union of Orthodox Rabbis and other small groups do do not. The reason is that RCA rabbis work in OU congregations; they represent not just an advocacy group but a large segment of the American Jewish community. That cannot be said to be true for the last three Orthodox Jewish groups on this list; they represent much tinier fractions of the American Jewish community. This is not "personal opinion". My sources include the Encyclopedia Judaica and "Piety & Power" by David Landau. RK 23:53, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
How old is the Judaica reference that calls them "fringe" and "tiny"? In what sentence does it use those words? Jayjg 01:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)


This line bothers me.

" Orthodoxy can roughly be classified into Modern Orthodox Judaism and Haredi Judaism (Hasidic Judaism is a subgroup within Haredi Judaism)."

Their are many more groups within Orthodox Judaism.

I would argue thier are three main groups.

Modern Orthodox, Centrist Orthodox, Haredi.

And I would add that Hasidic Judaism floats somewhere above Orthodoxy, as historically it stands in contrast to the primacy of the halakhah, against mitnagdic Jews.

[edit] Many Inaccuracies

That article is far from perfect. Anyway, when I tried to fix one of the more terrible mistakes (Agudat Israel opposed Rabbi Hirsch, when actually his adherents were the party's founders), my edit was reverted. SHASHAZ 09:32, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Does somebody have a better picture than the one of the young men from Meah Shearim? It isn't a particularly flattering picture, and it also seems to me that that gesture might mean that they're not particularly happy about having their picture taken. Actually I think I'll remove the picture, and somebody can put up a better picture if they have one. --Ezra Wax 04:08, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe the recently added picture should be removed. It pictures clothing etc. which is not a requirement of Orthodox Judaism and which reflects only an element of a diverse culture. Either there should be no pictures at all, or there should be pictures which reflect Orthodox Judaism's diversity. --Shirahadasha 22:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be removed because it is too small to be of any use. Jon513 06:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It's back, and I'm removing it again.--Shirahadasha 06:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unrelated New Page: Brit-Dam

Please visit Talk:Brit-dam and add your two-cents.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>     30 August 2005

BS"D

[edit] Changes to introduction and summary

The opening statement, defining Orthodoxy as the reaction to Reform, is misleading. Not only is this not a central, or even important, principal of Orthodox Judaism, but also most Orthodox Jews would describe themselves as the bearers of traditions greatly predating the advent of Reform Judaism. Most Reform Jews would probably descrive themselves the same way - not as reactants to Orthodoxy. In place of this, the opening paragraph should be a summary of the views which uniquely characterize Orthodox Judaism. These are the divinity of the Written and Oral Law (Torah and Talmud), and the importance of strict adherence to this Law and its interpretation and codification by the Rabbis of the last millenium, the Shulkhan Arukh in particular.

Since a discussion of some of the subgroups of Orthodox Judaism has been included in the introduction till now, it would be beneficial to briefly touch upon the primary issues and debates between these subgroups. The five points I have put forth summarize these issues well.

Hasidic Judaism and Haredi Judaism, while in agreement on many matters, are not really a single subgroup, and should be considered separately. There might be other articles in Wikipedia which should be changed accordingly. Both of these groups dress traditionally, but they do not dress similarly. They also disagree over the importance and centrality of Torah study - both agree it's important, but Haredi Jews typically emphasize it more than Hasidim. Additionally, Haredi Jews typically integrate into non-Jewish society more than their Hasidic counterparts.

Scorpiuss 07:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

BS"D Are you sure you're not referring to Hasidim and Mitnagdim? I thought Chareidi was a term which simply encompassed black-hat-communities, the Agudath Israel fold. yodamace1

My impression is that the term Chareidi is used to refer to non-Hasidic black-hat communities. I live in Jerusalem, and although I'm not exactly Chareidi, I have many relatives and friends who are. You might be right, though. The term "Lithunian Jewry" is also sometimes used to refer to non-Hasidic black hat groups, although these include those of Hungarian and Russian ancestry as well. I'll try to do some more research. Scorpiuss 13:40, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Haredi is used to refer to both Hassidic Jews and non-Hassidic black-hat/Yeshivish/Agudah Jews. Jayjg (talk) 22:38, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Btw, thanks to all of the people who have been editing the Jewish topics on Wikipedia. Thanks in large part to G-d allowing me to encounter Wikipedia, I am now a Baal Teshuvah for...well, something around 2 years now. Also, to the gentleman attempting to categorize Orthodoxy into 3 groups, what is "Centrist Orthodox"? I find that to be a really hard term to describe. Didn't make any edits, just trying to help my fellow Jews out. yodamace1

Yodamace1, I'm thrilled to hear Wikipedia has been such a help in learning about Judaism. It is a reminder to us all how much care we should take to represent topics in this field adequately.
Centrist Orthodoxy is a new-ish term for Modern Orthodoxy (I've also heard "Open Orthodoxy" used by some advocates), attempting to merge adherence to halakha with involvement in the world at large. It has such spokespeople as Rabbis Norman Lamm and Emmanuel Rackman. JFW | T@lk 17:23, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. Yeah, I just found out that R. Lamm coined the term...so I guess there aren't "three groups". yodamace1

[edit] Hebrew naming conventions

Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The introduction currently contains a list of seven tennents, which seem to be a partly from the 13 principles of the Rambam (Maimonidies), as well as some other stuff that I don't recognize. "The centrality of yeshivas as schools of Talmudic study and learning", for example, isn't something I've ever heard stated by any of the past Gedolim (sages) as a basic principle of faith. Yeshivot (plural for yeshiva) are merely a method for transmitting Judaism to the next generation.

I recommend that this be changed to either the Rambam's principles of faith (the 13 "Ani Ma'amin"'s), or some other list which I can't think of now but has a similar solid foundation within Judaism. To have a bunch of people gather together and define Orthodoxy without either (1) citing where they found it and/or (2) having it come directly from age-old sources seems almost ironic in nature. - eykanal, 5:10 PM EST, Dec 12, 2005

Good point. Jayjg (talk) 18:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

So what defines Orthodox Judaism? What makes it different from the other denominations? This is a very tough question. The Conservatives have voluminous literature in which they claim adherence to the 13 principles, although this will be disputed by the Orthodox. Alternatives are the Albo's three Ikkarim: belief in One God, the Divinity of the Torah and Personal Divine Intervention. Even that is open to interpretation.

In all honesty, I would prefer basing the intro on the Albo, with a source. It may actually be worthwhile pointing out that belief in the eternal authority of halakha is the only true defining characteristic, as Conservatives generally hold that halakha is determined by time-dependent dynamics and can be revoked due to social/political/natural change. JFW | T@lk 22:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, a word of caution... "Divinity of the Torah" is misleading...it should be Inspiration of the Torah". As for what defines Orthodoxy vis à vis "the other denominations", I would have to say that it's chief characteristic is that it is not a schismatic denomination, but rather a convenient catch-all for observant traditional jewish communities, in much the same way as "Mizrachi" is a convenient catchall for non-Ashkenazim and non-Sfaraðim. Tomertalk 23:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodox (United & Federation) Shuls in UK

UK orthodoxy seems to be missing. Could it either be added to this article or a link be made to another?

[edit] Rabbinical Worldvew

There is currently a statement, in the characteristics of Orthodox Judaism,

  • Judging the world outside, at any point in history and time, by the principles and guidance of what is presented and taught in the Torah/Talmud/Aggadah/Halakha primarily through the viewpoint of rabbis and their rabbinical literature.

This is a controversial statement and removing it should not be considered vandalism. It does not describe all of Orthodox Judaism. Rambam, the founder of the school combining Orthodox faith with acceptance of scientific rationalism, pointed out that while the Rabbis of the Talmud were gifted halachists these gifts did not extend to all of human knowledge generally, and he described them as giving generally poor advice on medicine, astronomy, etc. Much of Modern Orthodox Judaism follows Rambam on this and accepts things like evolution, regards much of Agaddah and Midrash as legend rather than fact, etc. Moreover its very philosophy is to combine rabbinic and modern outlooks. This statement doesn't accurately describe all of Orthodox Judaism and it shouldn't be included here. It perhaps should be included in the description of Haredi Judaism, which often does not accept the descriptive theory of evolution etc. Shirahadasha


I agree with you Sshirahadasha. Although I'm not Modern Orthodox, there are certainly a number of things that could be corrected on this article. I changed the intro to the article from something that incorrectly indicated that all Orthodox Jews keep halakha according to the Shulhhan Arukh. This is simply not true... in fact, I'm under the impression that there are actually very few Orthodox Jews who try to strictly keep halakha according to the Shulhhan Arukh. Most Orthodox Jews more or less just use the Shulhhan Arukh as a framework of halakha to work with, but at the same time diverge from it on a number of points, instead following opposing views of any one of its many commentators. The previous intro to Orthodox Judaism also seemed to exclude Baladi Yemenite Jews, Dor Daim, ... even many Shami Yemenite Jews, as well as talmedhei haRambam (a fairly quickly growing community of Jews from various edot who keep halakha according to the Mishneh Torah)... and not to forget the Romaniote Jews, who don't/didn't claim to go by Talmud Bavli at all -- over Talmud Yerushalmi -- and although I'm sad to say that this small community is on the brink of termination, I'm aware personally of a non-Romaniote group of Jews here in Jerusalem who have adopted the same approach. Anyone who wants references should just click on the links to the already existing articles related to these various groups Omedyashar 02:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Legalistic"

The article states "Orthodox Jews maintain that contemporary Orthodox Judaism maintains the same basic philosophy and legalistic framework that existed throughout Jewish history."

The word legalistic, it seems to me, has perjorative connotations and is not a NPOV. It is a term often used to connote adherence to the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. While Orthodox Jews adhere to the law, many would take exception to the notion that they do not adhere to its spirit. The term legal would be more neutral than legalistic.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mr. F (talk • contribs) .

Seems the same to me, but if you think it makes the article better, go for it. Oh, and welcome to wikipedia!. Just a helpful tip: if you type ~~~~ at the end of your post on talk pages, it will automaticly make a "signiture". This makes it easier to keep track of who said what. Jon513 17:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frum here?

Is this link for advertising? Kari Hazzard (T | C) 14:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contrast with other movements in Intro

Removed the sentence on contrast with other movements because the intro paragraph to other movements in judaism discusses only the subject movement. However, other movement articles have contrast and/or criticism sections or spin-off articles, and this one doesn't. (the Modern Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism articles have both.) Suggest that such a section (or sections) would be an appropriate addition consistent with the way the rest of the encyclopedia is organized. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

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