Talk:Origins of chess
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit] Persian Origins
The main arguement used in this article to suggest that chess originated from India, is weak. The words used today in modern chess to describe the pieces and some moves mostly come from Iran. I reccomend you either have this part removed if you wish to continue with the notion that chess originated from india, or correctly state the origins of the names given to pieces.
Such words include, terms like check mate mate comes from the Persian Maat, which is old persian for something on the lines of - "out of options" or "Nothing to do". This is one example of the origins of terms used in modern day chess.
Elephants were also used in ancient persia, The word Rook, also originates from persia, coming from the old persian word of Rookh.
last time i checked this article, it said that chess originated from iran, how come it keeps on changing. On both sides of the story there is not enough evidence. All we can agree upon, is that chess originated in either the Aryan states of iran or india. And this in my opinion should be the final conclusion to chess's origins in the article.
give evidence! we do not want, "it is beleived to be" give evidences from the sanskrit or the avesta, if not the article should be neurtral.
also i like to point out that the oldest ever Chess Board discovered was Persian. (you can obviously see where my stance is)
Neverthelss if their is not enough evidence or facts, in my opinion the article should be neutral.
[edit] Chinese and Egyptian origin
Considering that Xiàngqí (or Chinese chess or elephant chess) evolved from an ancient Chinese game called Liubo, invented around 1500 BC, Chaturanga would obviously be a variant of these older Chinese games. (See http://www.yutopian.com/chinesechess/history.html .) Each Xiàngqí player, as in Liubo, begins the game with one (1) General and five (5) Pawns, with victory defined by capture of the General. In the game of Liubo, however, the moves of the playing pieces are decided by a roll of dice. Accordingly, Xiàngqí predates the Indian game Chatrang and modern-day "Western" chess.
- I haven't seen this claim made in any mainstream source. I'll do some background checking on it later, but given other inaccurate material added by the same user I'm not inclined towards leaving it in the article. Some of the linked article seems to contradict the evidence presented in a paper about Liuno in the Journal of Board Game Studies (1999).
The main claim for the Egyptian origin is an ancient image found in the tomb of Egyptian Queen Nefertari (1295-1255 BC), which shows the queen reaching over what appears to be a game of 10 playing pieces on a 4 x 7 board design. The board depicted in this image includes, like Xiàngqí, a large block of blank space in its middle, between the two players (for a river or field or ...?). (See http://www.charlatanchess.com/eng8e.htm. ) If this is actually a "game," it would perhaps constitute an earlier version of Xiàngqí and would perhaps have also evolved from the ancient Chinese game Liubo (ca 1500 BC). And it would be our earliest indication of figurine-like figures being used for playing pieces rather than the flat discs that were used in the ancient Chinese games.
- This is a theory that hasn't been seriously suggested since the early 20th century. The game displayed in the image is far more like to be the Royal Game of Ur. --Imran 19:49, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The Royal Game of Ur ( http://www.gamecabinet.com/history/Ur.html ) was a race game played with knucklebones or dice on a board design that was very much different from the one depicted in the image of Queen Nefertari mentioned above. Also, if this image is in fact an ancient semblance of the Royal Game of Ur, why would the artist in his painstakingly detailed image entirely overlook including images of the knucklebones/dice? Furthermore, some have suggested that the game is actually the ancient Egyptian race game, Senet ( http://www.gamecabinet.com/history/Senet.html ), a theory that can likewise be disputed along similar lines.
Note too that figurines which possibly were once ancient chess pieces have been excavated, dating to time periods centuries before Chatrang's supposed date of inception in the 6th century! For starters, the piece discovered in Albania - http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020729/chess.html - is most likely an upside down rook with its bottom reshaped (explaining why it was found alone, apparently having been discarded! Perhaps an error was made in the initial fashioning process and the piece was subsequently reshaped in some vain attempt to search for an alternate use). Secondly, one cannot read Gerhard Josten's work - http://www.mynetcologne.de/~nc-jostenge/josten.pdf - without being struck by the pieces on pages 12 and 14, dating to the first/second century A.D.!
One must then conclude that chess-like games were likely played centuries before Chatrang was allegedly invented in India.
[edit] My revert of Roylee's addition
I have blanket-reverted Roylee's edits to this article. My reason is that he obviously tries to promote his extremely dubious, VfD'ed article Latin Alphabet: Circumstantial Evidence for Egyptian Origin by linking it here. I can't judge the merits of the rest of his additions, and decided to err on the side of caution (in knowing violation of the "When in doubt, don't delete" principle), but everybody please feel free to reinstate his contributions if you feel that is appropriate. Kosebamse 09:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm tempted to rip out huge chunks from this article and NPOV them and stick them on a general board game history article as at the moment a large part of this page is just random speculation with no serious evidence to back it up. --22:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
as above removing the following,
The bulk of the controversy surrounding the origins of chess mainly springs from two competing historical theories. First, one historical theory assumes our historical record to be essentially accurate. Second, a competing theory suggests that ancient Roman conquerors (with help perhaps from ancient India or Kushans) plundered specialized knowledge from ancient Egypt and revised the historical record so as to claim ancient Egyptian advances as their own. For purposes of this article, this will be termed the "revisionist" theory. Proponents of this theory assert it to be the only logical conclusion remaining to explain some extraordinary ancient Egyptian feats, such as the Great Pyramid of Giza and all those historical/archaeological puzzles posed at Charlemagne's Elephant.
Revisionists claim that this lack of physical evidence exposes Chaturanga as an apparent hoax, a game existing in idea only (as nothing more than a mere story) rather than physical fact. Compounding their claim are actual Chaturanga-looking pieces (elephant pieces) which have been discovered and date prior to the 6th century A.D. (See The first Persian, Arab and Russian chessmen.) Chess-like games, so it seems, may have been played centuries before having allegedly been invented in India.
The main claim for an Egyptian origin of chess is the ancient image found in the tomb of Egyptian Queen Nefertari (1295-1255 BC) which shows her reaching over what appears to be a game of 10 playing pieces on a 4 x 7 board design. The board suggested in this image includes, like Xiàngqí, a large block of blank space in its middle between the two players. See About The History Of Chess.
If Nefertari's image represents an original version of Xiàngqí, it would be our earliest indication of figurine-type playing pieces on a battle game played without dice. Nevertheless, both the ancient Board Game of Knossos (the design of which includes a ditch) and ancient Chinese Liubo (or Liu po) predate Nefertari's "game" by a couple centuries, as both are circa 1500 BC (ref. Lin, Chinese Chess, 1991). However, the Knossos board likely represents a race-like game rather than a battle game, and Liubo, though a battle game, was played with dice.
Interestingly, we have also evidence of two additional ancient Egyptian battle-like board games played without dice. Particularly, Plato attributes Egypt as the origin of petteia, played in the 5th to 4th centuries BC, but nothing more is known about the game. (See reference page 261 at Greek Board Games.) Another such ancient Egyptian game was seega (idem, pp. 270-271). Yet another described by Plato is the ancient Greek battle game poleis, a "fight between two cities" (idem, pp. 263-265). Note too that literary sources indicate Xiàngqí may have been played as early as the 4th century BC. See chess in early literature.
Other battle-like board games played in antiquity without dice include the ancient Chinese game of Go, still popular even today. Although the origins of Go may extend as far back as 2300 BC (ref. Encyclopædia Britannica) substantial supporting evidence dates no earlier than the 3rd century BC. Finally, Varro (Marcus Terentius) is credited with having documented our earliest record (1st century BC) of the Roman battle game, latrunculi. His original Latin prose is posted at Varro: Lingua Latina X, II, par. 20.
Seemingly, many ancient chess sets were destroyed over the centuries, perhaps in an attempt to "refine" the historical record. Luckily however modern excavations conducted since the 1970s have turned up chess pieces dating as far back as the 2nd century CE. See timeline of chess.
I'm happy for some of the above content to be restore to the article but it needs to be sourced as the mainstream works on this topic (Murray, Eales, et al) all favour the india hypothesis. If you wanted to say xxx proposed theory yyy in journal zzz than that's fine. But currently I think giving the china/roman hypothesis equal weight with the india hypothesis fails to accurately represent mainstream historical/scientific though on the topic. --Imran
[edit] Nefertari playing chess
"The main claim for an Egyptian origin of chess is the ancient image found in the tomb of Egyptian Queen Nefertari (1295-1255 BC) which shows her reaching over what appears to be a game of 10 playing pieces on a 4 x 7 board design. The board suggested in this image includes, like Xiàngqí, a large block of blank space in its middle between the two players. If Nefertari's image truly represents an older version of Xiàngqí, it would be our earliest indication of figurine-type playing pieces on a battle game played without dice."
"4x7 board design"? "a large block of blank space"? What the Hell!? I think this guy is not talking about the board (red rectangle) but Nefertari's friggin' chair! This is a bogus attempt to support the Xiangqi origin theory. QV66 has this same picture, describing it as a board of Senet. See [1]. We have to be careful when we interpret pictures of other cultures because of our cultural biases; what we see as "chess pieces" could be perfume bottles. This could've been (hipothetically) Nefertari putting some makeup on, for all we know. The Senet theory seems much more plausible. I think this should be changed to reflect that the common interpretation of this picture is that of a Senet board, links to QV66 and Senet could be added. What do you think?--200.40.169.22 00:50, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
- I removed this fragment from main article, obviously Nefertari plays Senet on this painting, not a chess-like game. You can see that board has 10 rows all of them are occupied with pieces on the first line. It is quite unlikely for a chess-like game that such configuration happens. From the other side, Senet was played on the board 3x10 and the game started with players placing their pieces on the first line depending on dice. Tall pieces belong to one player, small to other one. So it looks like a start of Senet game. Andreas Kaufmann 18:47, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Mahabharata
Can someone please supply a precise citation from the Mahabharata? I am suspicious; a purported mention in the Code of Manu (maybe second century BC) turned out actually to be in a commentary, many centuries later. J S Ayer 03:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
- I tried to search for "chess Mahabharata", using Google toolbar on Sacred-Texts: Hinduism. The only hit I found was this fragment in Book 4, Section 1: "...Presenting myself as a Brahmana, Kanka by name, skilled in dice and fond of play, I shall become a courtier of that high-souled king. And moving upon chess-boards beautiful pawns made of ivory, of blue and yellow and red and white hue, by throws of black and red dice. I shall entertain the king with his courtiers and friends." Certainly the mentioned game could be Chaturaji (4-handed Chaturanga), however more likely, that this game is a race game, like Pachisi. Andreas Kaufmann 08:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I have deleted the reference to chess in the Maha-Bharata, as the text seems actually to refer to pachisi, and the statement that chess-pieces were found in Mohenjo-Daro, five thousand years old, as I have read all I can on early chess pieces and have never heard of any such thing; I have never heard of chess pieces as much as two thousand years old. J S Ayer 03:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
A probable sock-puppet has reinserted the reference to chaturanga that is probably really pachisi, and I have again cut it out. J S Ayer 02:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
And again, three months later to the day. The rendering "chess-boards" is highly questionable, as the rest of the passage describes men of four colors, without apparent differentiation by type, moving around the board as directed by dice: probably pachisi. The linked series of chess-based cartoons, while entertaining, adds nothing to our knowledge of the origin of the game. J S Ayer 02:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Shah Ardashir
I removed the following from the article: "...One ancient Persian text refers to Shah Ardashir, who ruled from 224–241 CE, as a master of the game...." Chess is believed to be invented much later, this statement would need a reference to respectable source to stay in the article. Andreas Kaufmann 10:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] I added information on History of Indian Chess and gave a Timeline of Chess
I added the little section on the Brahmin Sissa and his invention of chess and the picture of Siisa. This is all under India's origin of chess and hope it contributes well to the article. The information comes from the Chessbase website under the title Chess is a War Game. The link is in the external links section. Darkness1089
I still cannot find any reference to the Maha-Bharata that clearly describes chess rather than another board game, probably pachisi. The evidence generally supports an Indian origin of chess; please do not damage the article by unsupported claims of a great antiquity. J S Ayer 22:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I have re-added the statement that says Chaturanga was played during the Mahabharata. I've sourced two sites: http://www.crystalinks.com/indiasports.html and http://www.haryana-online.com/History/mahabharat.htm.
You can also look at http://www.chesssetstore.com/history-of-chess/
Darkness1089
Haryana-online simply copies (without attribution) a previous state of this article. That reference is therefore circular and invalid. Chesssetstore does not provide a traceable reference. Neither, actually, does crystalinks. Do you have any other text than that quoted above by Andreas Kaufmann? If so, please present it. J S Ayer 22:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I highly doubt there are scholarly papers explaining the origin of chessand their references in various texts like the Mahabharata. Although, I found another one that seems better than the other couple of links I posted. Here It is (link). There is another one (link). I'll try to find something written by an acclaimed researcher if I can on the net. If not, I have a Hindi version of the Mahabharata at home that I can ook for specific reference in terms for line numbers and such. Darkness1089
I have found a translation of the Mahabharata on line. The description of the gambling by which Yudhishthira loses his wealth, his brothers, himself, and Draupati is in Canto Two, Sections 50-64, on line at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02050.htm and following. It is described simply as a dice-game. Chaturanga is never named or described. Anyone can look. J S Ayer 03:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A bit removed from Catalan Opening
I just removed this bit of text from the Catalan Opening article, since it has nothing to do with that subject (bold as in the original):
- In 1008, a Catalonian nobleman, Count Ermengol of Urgell, specified in his will that his chess pieces were to be left to the Convent of St. Giles near Nîmes, present France and then in the area of influence of the Catalan Counties. This is the earliest recorded mention of chess in European history.
I can't vouch for its veracity, but since I thought somebody else could, and might have a better idea of where it might go, and since history of chess redirects to this article, I've copied it here. --Camembert 01:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Already on line at Chess in early literature. J S Ayer 23:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Chess reaching Russia
The text says that chess reached Russia via Mongolia. I object to this. The Mongols have no sound "f" and converted "ferz" to "bers", yet Russians know "ferz" as a name for the chess-queen. Also the Mongols have no elephants among their chessmen, using a camel, as I recall, yet the Russians often call the bishop "slon" which is their word for an elephant. For both reasons I think chess reached Russia from Persia. Before the twentieth century Russian chessmen were usually of ivory, left white on both sides but with one side carved to represent Russians and the other side Persians. J S Ayer 00:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sissa's Wish
Someone has inserted a statement (under "India") that Sissa was however killed, because the king would be ruined if Sissa's wish were granted. This is a reference to part of the story that is not in the article: The king asked Sissa what reward he would like for his splendid achievement in creating this game, and Sissa asked for a chessboard with one grain of wheat on the first square, two on the second, four on the third, and so on by powers of two. The king, impressed by the sage's moderation, ordered it done, only to discover before long that there wasn't enough wheat in all the world to do what was asked. Sissa, laughing, said that he had known this all along, and was amply rewarded by the chance to teach the power of even a low-level geometric progression. So king and sage were reconciled; there is no mention of the one having the other put to death. I will therefore remove the sentence. J S Ayer 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Modern rules
Since what point in time have the current rules been in effect? Since the introduction of en passant capture? Dynzmoar 12:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
It depends on how stringently you define "current rules". The rules were changed even in the second half of the twentieth century, I think, with a definition of castling in a game at rook odds and a change in the rule about what to do when it is discovered that an error was committed earlier in the game. J S Ayer 03:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] shah/chaturanga
This article suggests (and I believe correctly) that the word "chess" is derived from Persian shah, but the Chess article suggests it is derived from chaturanga. Which is correct, what does chaturanga mean?--Josh Rocchio 17:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- H.J.R. Murray argues exhaustively in his History of Chess that it is derived from "shah" and the warning from one player that the other's king is under attack. "Chaturanga" means "four arms" and refers to the four branches of an ancient Indian army. J S Ayer 01:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
That's what I thought, scacchi, shaxmaty, etc... Certainly wouldn't be from chat, but shah.--Josh Rocchio 01:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Misspelling at the "Indian" Section?
In the "Other Theories/India" section, it shows the ruler of India spelled "rajah" (when referring to the current king of India) and then "raja" the second time it is used (referring to the "king" piece in chess). Unless this cites sources that says to spell both references in this manner, this is inconsistent.
Plus, in the book Chess: A Celebration of 2000 Years (by Roswin Finkenzeller, Wilhem Ziehr and Emil M. Bührer)it says that the rajah's name is spelled "Balhit", not "Balhait".
Oh well, I'm just straining out gnats--I'll go back to writing my research paper. --JDitto 07:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Your first point is valid; your second I am not qualified to judge. J S Ayer 02:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for adjusting the rajah spelling. As for my second point, I ask: Where is the source that mentions the rajah's name as 'Balhit'?
- On the other hand, I'm going to swap the headings Other theories and Further Development of chess, if you don't mind. It seems to be more chronological that way. --JDitto 05:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Good idea. I hope you have not mistaken me for a major contributor to this page; I am merely a persistent stickler. J S Ayer 03:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] There is very little question that chess was invented in China
The idea that "Chess was invented in India" hypothesis is some kind of scientific consensus is absurd, and it should be immediately fixed. The real question is - should we even treat it seriously in Wikipedia, in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary ?
Two oldest somewhat documented chess-like games are Chinese Xiangqi and Indian Chaturanga. Xiangqi is commonly accepted to come from 4th-2nd century BC, Chaturanga from 6th or 7th century AD.
So claiming Indian origin means one of:
- Chaturanga and Xiangqi do not have common origins
- Chaturanga comes from Xiangqi (or from common source with Xiangqi), but Xiangqi is somehow "not chess"
- Chaturanga is over 1000 years older that the evidence suggests
- Xiangqi is over 1000 years younger than the evidence suggests
Let's first deal with the claim that Xiangqi was developed independently from Chaturanga.
They are both played by two players on small rectangular board (8x8 or 10x9), each taking turns in which they could move one piece, and the move could cause capture of some enemy pieces. The objective is capturing/checkmating the enemy king/general. Most pieces can move everywhere, and capture the way they move. The pieces start at opposing sides of the board, stronger ones in the last row, weaker ones in front of the strong ones. From the center (capturing rules and river, palace, etc. skipped) they are:
- in Xiangqi:
- one general, moving horizontally and vertically by 1
- two advisors, moving diagonally by 1
- two elephants, moving diagonally by 2
- two horses, moving like horses
- two chariots, moving horizontally and vertically by any distance
- two cannons, moving horizontally and vertically by any distance
- five soldiers, moving forward by 1
- in Chaturanga (according to reconstructed rules from Wikipedia, details vary):
- one king, moving in any direction by 1
- one counsellor, moving diagonally by 1
- two chariots, moing horizontally and vertically by any distance
- two elephants, moving diagonally by 2
- two horses, moving like horses
- eight soldiers, moving forward by 1
Can anybody seriously claim these games are so similar by chance ? They are far more similar to each other than Xiangqi to Shogi or Chaturanga to International chess, and nobody claims Shogi or International chess were invented intependently.
Both 1000 years misdating hypotheses can be ignored unless further evidence is given.
So by now we know that all kinds of chess come from something modern Xiangqi-like, and there is no evidence suggesting Xiangqi wasn't invented in China.
The only possible objection left is that Xiangqi is somehow "not chess". I really fail to see how can anybody seriously call Chaturanga "chess" and Xiangqi "not chess", given how similar they are.
One more thing - Murray doesn't seem like a serious source on origins of chess. It seems he didn't even know about Xiangqi !
For more discussion see [2]
Wikipedia should plainly state that, as far as all evidence goes, chess was invented in China. Taw 17:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- This article by Sam Sloan, which you refer to, is well-written and interesting to read. However, it could be historically inaccurate. Please see on Talk:Early Arabic chess literature some comments of Cazaux, French chess historian, on Murray's book and origin of chess. In his book, Murray actually devotes a chapter to Xiangqi and its variants. He also seriously considered possibility that the game called "Xiangqi" as played 2nd century could be a chess-like game, but rejects this hypothesis due to missing historical evidence. Andreas Kaufmann 22:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Apparently "xiangqi" was the name of two or three games, so, unless the game is not only named but described, the reference is inadequate. In European game history we have cases where, for example, an account-book lists an expenditure for "two foxes and twenty-six geese for merels" although merels is a game with the same number of pieces and of the same type on each side; fox and geese is a different game, with asymmetrical forces and goals. J S Ayer 03:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
You simply cannot claim chess was invented in China
- First of all, Chinese Chess is played on a board with 9x8 squares or 10x9 edges. This does in no way explain why the board magically change to 8x8 square as chess was passed on from China to India and beyond. Did the Chinese conspire to give the rest of the world an inferior type of game and kept the "perfect" game for themselves?
- The Chinese virtually never used War Elephants in their armies. It is highly unclear as to how such an uncommon piece got into the war game. On the other hand, the Indian armies used all of divisions (King, General/Minister, Cavalry, Chariot/Boat, Elephant, Infantry) represented by the chess pieces.
- The movements of the pieces is significantly different. Especially because of the fact that The Chinese chess has the King inside a castle and two guards that cannot move out. There is no piece equivalent to the cannon. There is also no pawn conversion or progression.
- You simply cannot rule out the differences n pieces. 5 pawns in Chinese chess and 8 in Indian Chess. Cannon in Chinese chess. Queen/General/Minister in Indian chess.
- Although there is no evidence to suggest that chess was played before the 600s AD era, there is definitive evidence to explicitly state that India had games before that can be considered to be forerunners to chess.
- There are significant mentions to the games of Chaturanga and Chaturaji in ancient Indian literature. Refer to Mahabharata Book 4 (1st Section) here
Please refer to this article for a full and clear explanation of my arguments. Origins of Chess
Wikipedia should acknowledge the contributions made by Chinese chess, but it cannot in any way deny the facts that chess was invented in India. It is possible that the Chinese and Indian chess have a common history and connection, but no one can in any way claim that chess was invented outside of India.
Darkness1089 22:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Pesian Youths Picture HAS to be removed
Although the article says that the most commonly agreed upon place for the origin of chess is India, this picture of Persian Youths is VERY VERY misleading. It is only fair that that picture is moved down to somewhere else and the picture is replaced with a picture of ancient Indian chess players or chess games.
Wikipedia is contradicting itself by saying chess was invented in India and displaying a picture claiming Persian invention of the game of chess. There is a very famous painting showing Radha and Krishna playing chess. This will truly convey the message that the game of chess is deeply rooted to Indian culture and will fairly acknowledge the contributions the people of India have made to the modern world.
Darkness1089 22:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the picture suggestion but not becuase I am a pro Indian supported like yourself. Anyway if the word "check mate" comes from Persian, what does "check" mean anyway? In Persian would it not be nonsensical? 66.91.119.183 11:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Arbitary deletion of information is POV
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
Please leave all properly referenced information on this article. Kelvinc 22:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
