Talk:Oriel College

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	Oriel College is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 24, 2007.
Article Milestones Date Process Result November 22, 2006 Peer review Reviewed January 14, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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Archives September, 2004 – December, 2006

[edit] Quality of the article

I am amazed that an article of this quality managed to become a featured article. The most shocking of all things is that the article on a college lacks any mention of academics. How can an article on academic institute claim comprehensiveness without dealing with academics? There is a mega-sized section on Buildings and environs, which ideally should be a third of the current size. The name of the section itself is lousy. The Coat of arms section is pure cruft, and does not help in encyclopedic understanding of the college. The Grace section is also a disgrace, which is totally useless for an encyclopedic article. The People associated with the College section is stubby. The Silver Plate section deserves a maximum of one paragraph in history, and doesn't even deserve to be a sub-section. The Film and fiction title is also very lousy. Just because the article is completely referenced doesn't mean it is comprehensive, and just because reference for something is available doesn't mean those can be included. Seeing the FAC of the article, I see that there were many outstanding objections when the article was passed. Till now I haven't even gone into the quality of prose, to which there were most objections. Are there any editors willing to look into these issues? — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note: I don't actually see any outstanding objections from the FAC discussion. They were all dealt with on a point-by-point basis – long before the discussion closed and the article was promoted. Are you also commenting on problems with the FAC process? (which everyone is free to contribute to) Or the neutrality of the decision made? Sorry, it is unclear. Also, I'm sure the issues you raise will be looked into, and, this being a Wiki and all, be acted on if appropriate. Bubba hotep 11:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I quote two people from the FAC discussion. Tony said: "You're right; I was a little harsh in that comment, but stand by my view that the prose isn't good enough." Sandy said: "Fixing Tony's *examples* isn't enough to correct the prose.". I think this qualifies as outstanding issue. I am not sure why you linked WP:SOFIXIT. I haven't heard of this college before. Do you expect me to write on its academics. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The article has had three copy edits by users previously uninvolved, all individual items were dealt with, the objections about prose are by a user who advocates Michael Halliday’s systemic functional grammar, as embodied in MAK Halliday, Introduction to functional grammar, 2nd ed, Arnold, London, 1995; traditional grammar sucks. Academics are mentioned as they crop up in history and in the section, which may appear stubby because it is a summary of another page. Can you tell me anything fact about Oriel College that is verifiable and missing from the article?--Alf ^melmac 11:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

<edit conflict>I was linking SOFIXIT as a pointer that editors in general will (if they see fit) change things (as they see fit). As nobody has done that yet, maybe there are no real problems – including the prose, which Tony and Sandy did not revisit when the article was complete (it underwent a copyedit afterwards as well). I am in no way trying to prevent you from having an opinion on this article, but you have come on a bit strong and then virtually demanded that other people work on it to make it better. You have also made comments about the FAC process which surely would be better placed at a talk page in that area? Bubba hotep 11:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't yet reviewed the quality of the prose, so there is no point in discussing it any further. I can ask a counter-question: Can you list sentences relating to academics that appear on the article. As mentioned before, I haven't heard of the college before, so citing examples is beyond me. But I think it is natural for any college to have departments, centres, and teaching programs. I don't see even a single mention of these. Do you expect me to believe there the article is comprehensive without even mentioning academics. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I have left a note at WikiProject Universities so that editors not personally involved with this article express their views on the issues raised. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

My comments were based on the fact that you were attacking the quality of the article. If you are now saying you haven't even looked into it, after saying there were outstanding issues at the FAC discussion, I'm sorry, it doesn't make clear sense. Your attempts to now limit your reactions to comprehensive content now appear to me as backtracking. Bubba hotep 11:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I have never back-tracked any statement. Read my first comment carefully. I categorically said that I haven't gone through the quality of the prose, and I repeatedly said the same thing. Why don't you deal with the issues raised by me. Also, I am not saying that FAC is broken. The very nature of the process means that slip-ups can happen. However, I was expressing my surprise that such a big slip-up chanced to happen. My surprise isn't my objection. Yes, I am attacking the quality of the article (for the reasons mentioned above), but I have not attacked the quality of the "prose". There is a difference. Please don't confuse the two. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 12:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Then please don't attribute problems of comprehensive content to me either. I have commented on your saying there are outstanding problems from the FAC, when there are (in the absence of comments to the contrary) none. You could only say they were outstanding if you had read through and checked the problems both Tony and Sandy perceived still existed. Also, at this point, I will say that I was a copy editor who took part in improving this article voluntarily, but have had virtually no content input into it, so if you are now dismissing my views because you see me as somehow "involved" in the article, I'm sorry that is another misconception you need to address. As can be seen below, Alf is the one who can address the content issue – I was just dealing with the tone and inconsistent approach of the complaint. Bubba hotep 12:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oriel is just one of over thirty (maybe forty by now) colleges that form the collegiate aspect of Oxford University, the university itself has departments, not indiviudal colleges, likewise with the teaching programmes - the same as for specialist (and some would therefore say not proper Oxford University) colleges, but as that is not clear, I'll look to see how that can be mentioned. The academics are on List of Oriel College people, the summary names both the indivual and the fellowship attached to college in the section, any further depth causes verification problems, and broken into former and current, provosts and honorary fellows. Those that can be are - John Keble and John Henry Newman are mentioned in the lead. Provosts John Eveleigh who has not been considered notable enough for an article and he was a provost, and Edward Copleston are mentioned in the Modern section, as are Richard Whately and Thomas Arnold, and without being insulting they far outshadow any current academic.--Alf ^melmac 12:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

By academics I meant education, not academic-related people. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Then the answer is even simpler - see Oxford University - the education you might receive at Oriel is the same as at ChristChurch, Balliol, Corpus Christi etc. Maybe there is a confusion in your mind as to what an Oxford College is, it is not the same as a college outside of England - as far as I can gather a college outside the big universities of Europe is more like a university in itself. Also I note that you have messaged the University Project, I've seen no active participation by them on this article excepting for adding their tag at the top of this page - this is a college not a univeristy - I believe a better place would be Wikipedia:WikiProject University of Oxford.--Alf ^melmac 12:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Wiki alf, for the constructive reply above. For the facts you mentioned above, the coverage would possibly have to be on different lines, but I still feel that something should be mentioned. I am not sure how can a college not have departments. I mean, aren't the students studying in the college assigned departments specific to their academic discipline. Granted the academic policies are not drafted by the college, but definitely the college would have dedicated faculties of various academic disciplines. Also, for both under-graduate and post-graduate students in the college, I think a discussion on the broad streams to which they belong are necessary for comprehensiveness. From the current article, it isn't even clear if Oriel College is arts, science or engineering college. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 12:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

At Oxford Univeristy there are more than three physics departments, a music faculty which stretches across library, practical and museums, mathmatical buildings, in fact there is a whole science area of building where students at this and other colleges go to do various aspects of the work see Category:Departments of the University of Oxford - they are not a subset of any individual college, they are Oxford University property, ChristChurch and Balliol, renowned for "producing" prime minsters, has no politics department - there is the Centre for Political Ideologies, Politics and Intrernational Relations and Sociology Library and general buildings at Manor Road, a student of Politics at Oriel would use those buildings as much as anyone from ChristChurch or Balliol for example.--Alf ^melmac 12:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

In short the same courses can be done at any Oxford college, barring specialism, which as I mentioned above, are sometimes not considered part of the University, so Oriel cannot be defined as an Arts, Science or Engineering college, you could in fact take a number of degrees within those disciplines at Oriel, as you can at most of the tradtional Oxford colleges. There are some exceptions - Green College, Oxford used only to focus on medicine and now does that and "related disciplines". for example.--Alf ^melmac 12:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I am now getting what kind of colleges are there in Oxford. So let me be more precise about what I believe needs to be clarified: What defines Oriel College? Is it just the physical boundary (which means it doesn't share academic facilities like library with any other college)? Is it faculty (If I pick up the name of a professor, do I say he belongs to Oriel College or he belongs to Oxford university)? Is it department (Is Oriel College a sum total of specific academic disciplines)? I believe from your reply above that the third question is ruled out. I asked to confirm that I have not misunderstood what you said. I think if these questions are satisfactorily answered in article prose, then my first objection (relating to academics) stands resolved. But reflecting on what we have discussed, I think if people outside of Europe will have trouble understanding this article, then something is wrong with the article. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 13:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oriel College is defined in a number of ways, prinicpally by its foundation which in turns owns a number of buildings, which its staff and students may live/teach/play/drink/etc. in (for example the first quad of Oriel has staircases one through six - in rooms 1.1, 1.2 for the last goodness knows how long you will find the boat club captains and at least two others' accomodation, in 3.3 you will find the chaplain - as you would have done in the days before John Henry Newman, but there is also the lodge, which deals with all incoming general enquries, the Chapel, the Hall with the kitchens and more senior dining rooms linking from it, there is the college bar, the college office where the Provost's secretary works, the academic office which deals with admissions and current academic issues, and some of the Provosts Lodgings, in 6.A the provost's guests are accomodated as is the reigning monarch when he/she chooses (or is required) to attend, as well as about 40-50 other student accomodation rooms). So yes, you're on the right track there. I doesn't share facilities as a college as such but its students do access common Oxford University buildings, like the fairly famous Bodleian Library. Is is not a faculty and if you were to pick a random professor you may find that they are considered to "belong" to more than one place, depending on their personal history and the nature of the professorship, Regius Professors are linked to colleges in an ex-offico manner for example. The same will apply to nearly every single one of the colleges of Oxford, each article would have to re-state what is generally outlined at Oxford University, I'm not sure that is practical, even if wise. The article spent a day on the main page and not a single comment relating to this came up. It is a common question for tourists to ask "where is the University" to which most locals reply (if they are within four or five miles of the centre) "You're already in it, look about!", it takes a lot of patience and time for locals to continually answer the preconception that there is a defined "campus" and "which college is the one to do History in?" type questions are quite frankly practically unanswerable in person on a day to day basis and certainly so in an encylopedia article.--Alf ^melmac 13:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you can incorporate some text from this page. Specifically, Oriel College has academic disciplines in arts and sciences. Also, students belong to different nationalities. Details of the admission process can also be included. The tutors (faculty) are reportedly specific to the college, so the details/statistics of faculty in various disciplines can be included. The facilities available at the college can also be discussed. This page suggests that the college has specialised (and possibly advanced) computing facilities. Details of well-known laboratories in the college can also be included. The academic publication statistics (if any) can also be mentioned. I believe the college would be using facilities from OUP. Have any books by Oriel faculty been published in OUP or elsewhere. If any related information is available, it can be included. If you think repeating information is not wise, provide a link to some article that does. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 14:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

From what I have gathered, the college isn't secular in nature. This can be seen in the "Grace" which has references to Jesus Christ as Lord. Are there exceptions for students from other religious backgrounds. If there are exceptions, state them. If there are not, even then this can be mentioned. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 14:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

From an Oxford perspective "arts & sciences" means pretty much all subjects and is therefore pretty meaningless, and the same applies to virtually every other college in Oxford University. Students at every college belong to different nationalities, Oriel is not special there, it's student make-up is pretty similar to the other Oxford colleges - there is a higher proportion of non-indiginous students studying as graduates than undergraduates. I have where possible avoided using data from the primary source for the usual reasons. The facilities such as they are, are discussed, in the building sections and in the student life section. There are no labs in Oriel, notable or otherwise. The admission process does not vary from this college to the next - again this would involve the exact same data being needed in evry college article. Tutors being sepcific to college is already mentioned in the article and I'll repeat it again Oriel is a college, not a faculty. The computing facilties despite what the primary source might suggest, are nothing special, better are found at the relevant university department (or faculty). Individual members of Oriel have published various things in the past - the historians Rannie, Pantin and Catto have written works about Oriel and are extensively cited in the article. It might be better to suggest a standard lead section summarising the Oxford Univeristy academic system and admissions procedure to the Oxford Univeristy project as that is not specific to this article. And yes the college is secular, it was religious based when it was founded, as were all oclleges and halls at the time, but is no longer, as is the case with virtually all other colleges, the data about how many gaudies (previously they were religious observances) being taken down in numbers from over twenty to two is actually mentioned in the article. There was never any particular decision about this, like most of the former religious 'houses' of Oxford, they have gradually accepted a more and more secular process, again that is not specific to Oriel.--Alf ^melmac 14:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Your comments about grace are similar to asking that in every single English school article, the fact that assembly was once a time for prayer and singing of hymns has changed to being a secular event - I'm just shaking my head here, I can't see how stuff that is standard amongst a vast amount of places needs to be address in every single article about colleges and schools.--Alf ^melmac 14:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite a discussion that's erupted here! It all seems to stem from a lack of understanding of the nature of a college within the University of Oxford. If I might say so, I think the most appropriate place to ensure this is clearly explained is the Colleges of the University of Oxford page. This is already linked to from the first paragraphs of most if not all the individual college articles (including this one) though maybe some way needs to be found of emphasising these links and raising awareness that the colleges may be unlike those of other institutions the reader is familiar with.

At present I don't think the colleges page (or for that matter the main University of Oxford page) gives sufficient explanation of the roles the colleges play (or don't play) in the academic life of the university. In both articles the details that are given about the nature of the collegiate university focus on undergraduate courses – lectures and tutorials are mentioned, but there's nothing to say where research goes on. Casper Gutman 22:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for replying late. Was busy for the last few days, and even now don't have much time. I will get beck to details of the concerns raised by you later in detail, but prima facie, I still think that related articles need to be linked from it. For example, a link to a page that deals with admission to Oxford colleges needs to be added either in "See also" form, or with a 2~3 sentence brief introduction to the common norms and ways. Regards, — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the additions. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 17:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)