Talk:Orchestra
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[edit] (unsectioned postings)
I had to remove the bit about an orchestra being "adapted for playing in concert musical notation", because I just don't know what it means. And I'm going to move the list of conductors over to conductor, as I propsed over there a while ago. --Camembert
Fame: - I hate to be a drag and raise this painful issue again, but isn't there (yet again) a problem here with there being a "famous" and "other" orchestras list? For example who decides that, say, the LA Phil is not famous? I mean, I do know that this kind of thing is pretty inevitable here and yes it's a work in progress and so on ... but it does just seem a real, repeating, pain-in-the-neck problem. I could, for example, add all the London orchs to the "famous" side of the list. Undoubtedly they are famous. But it's already a terribly Eurocentric list and this would hardly help ... and the concept of things either havig to be in the famous list or in the 2nd eleven, as it were ... I don't know, it just seems odd. Is there a discussion somewhere about this? Wikipedia: what is fame? or what role do these lists perform? or something? Nevilley
- Well, as you asked... Talk:List of famous Canadians and Talk:List of famous Canadians (archive) have an extremely long, boring, silly, pointless, abusive and indecisive "discussion" on the matter of what constitutes fame and who should be included on lists of things. If I were you, I'd steer well clear of it, but I think it's the closest we've got to a page dedicated to the matter of deciding what should be included on lists of famous Xs (at least as far as I know).
- Personally, I think lists like this are more or less useless, apart from them being handy to link articles that would otherwise be orphans. However, people seem to like them, and they keep springing up.
- As for this list specifically - I think that dividing the list into "famous" and "other" is a bad idea, so I'll make it just one list. The generally done thing before the "famous Canadians" episode was to list everything/body that had an entry in the wikipedia plus any very famous others (in this case, that would mean, say, the Berlin Phil, the LSO and some others, but not, for example, the Yomiuri Symphony Orchestra). I am, therefore, significantly trimming this list - I've been brutal, and if somebody wants to restore the LAPO, say, or remove the Boston SO, I won't complain; but if anybody wants to add a really quite obscure orchestra (the Orchestra Gulbenkian, say), I think they should write an article about them first. Otherwise I may have to add the Sheffield Symphony Orchestra, which convenes once a year to play a program of sugary Viennese waltzes and then disbands to the pub. --Camembert
Heheheheh yes I knew about the Canadians thing, it's my kind of bete noire example of what to avoid at all costs.
I think your approach is reasonable in general, taking as a sort of standard the question of whether someone can be bothered to write an article about the topic or not. And of course it neatly removes the question of fame, mostly.
I suppose where it is open to abuse or silliness is that (1) I decide to put in the Sheffield Symphony Orchestra and write no article, because I say it's famous or important, and the rest of you can get lost, or (2) I decide to put in the Sheffield Symphony Orchestra and I do write an article, because I am being silly, or self-promotional, or want to see the SSO's name in print for a bet, or whatever. You can see me worrying about something similar in the Talk for the trumpet article.
However, assuming that goodwill and reasonableness will prevail, I think this is a good approach; I congratulate you for taking the step; and I will be interested to see how it develops. :) Nevilley
- Thanks, Nevilley; I'm interested to see how it develops too. I reserve the right, however, to deny all knowledge of this article should an argument break out ;) I see, incidentally, that the list has been significantly expanded, with orchestras which are, I think, lesser known than the ones I left in the list, but still well enough known to be thought of as "famous". However, if the list gets much bigger, the best thing to do is probably to break it off into List of orchestras. In the meantime, I'm going to try and write stubs for all these bands... --Camembert
I'm not sure whether these orchestras should all be listed as at present (with a few exceptions) or whether the word Orchestra should be ommitted.
e.g London Symphony, St Petersburg Philharmonic, etc.
Many of the orchestras are normally referred to by their full names, however, so I will leave this for the moment. User:David Martland
- I've wondered about this as well, but as you say I think the word "orchestra" is normally included when referring to most of them. However, I did put the NYPO article at New York Philharmonic, rather than New York Philharmonic Orchestra. Even there, it isn't uncommon to hear "New York Philharmonic Orchestra", so I think we're OK as we are. --Camembert
I also have some reservations about famous or important orchestras. Where does one draw the line? However, the list is now moderately complete, and I am not intending to add any regional orchestras which are probably not so important, or subsidiary orchestras (e.g The BBC Concert Orchestra), which are probably listed under their organisation (example: BBC). Some radio orchestras are probably important, and some foreign orchestras are a pain because of translation - both orchestras in Stockholm fall under these categories - one is called the Kungliga Orkester Stockholm which I suppose translates as the Royal Stockholm Orchestra, and the other is the Stockholm Radio Orchestra, which is actually rather good. I added the CSO and NBC Symphony yesterday - even though they are both just radio orchestras, the CSO was associated with Bruno Walter, and the NBC with Toscanini so I figure that makes them interesting. User:David Martland. I think the LAPO should be in the list - I'll probably put it back if it's gone - both Bernstein and Giulini for example have given important performances/made recordings with them. Until Blomstedt came along, and Decca started recording furiously, LAPO was generally considered more important than the SFO.
- When I removed the LAPO at first, it was in the course of reducing the list to about half a dozen - I really trimmed it back very hard. My hope is that we can get articles on all the orchestras listed here, and then we can call the list "A list of orchestras with articles in the wikipedia", safe in the knowledge that there are no "important" or "famous" orchestras (whatever that might mean) that we've missed out. But for now, the list looks OK as it stands, I think - there are no really small and obscure orchestras listed as there were before. --Camembert
[edit] was this a correct edit?
in 1842 the New York Philharmonic was created, in 1848 the Vienna Philharmonic was formed was changed into in 1842 the New York Philharmonic and the Vienna Philharmonic were formed
Azertus 14:45, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- According to Grove, the Vienna Philharmonic society was first organized in 1842, though it did not give regular concerts right away. There seems to be some room for interpretation about "exactly" when the VP was formed, but it does seem that 1842 is the better date. Antandrus (talk) 15:12, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] List of symphony orchestras
I created this list from the list in the "Orchestra" article on the suggestion from Antandrus. I suggest that the list in the article be removed and replaced with a link to list of symphony orchestras, but wish to hear a second opinion before doing so. :) Gazza1685 23:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Hello; great! There is also a discreet list of notable orchestras worldwide. Not as comprehensive as above (only 25 in total), it is derived from the 2005 Encyclopædia Britannica Almanac and was created to partially satisfy ongoing disputes that the global city article was too focused on certain Western socioeconomic criteria. Anyhow, enjoy and thanks! E Pluribus Anthony 23:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Added Subheads To History
It took a while, but the History section is now subdivided. The section on Wagner’s influence can be expanded with some links to his works. Eventually there will have to be an Orchestra Portal because the topic is quite extensive (imho). "History of The Orchestra" will eventually be its own article, I hope.
---ecs
Schweiwikist 22:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
P.S. thanks to Gazza1685 for the tweak to the instrumentation section. Though I'd rather see shorter sentences in wiki, my last edit was not an easy read.
Schweiwikist 04:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
And thanks to 66.177.92.196 about the Violin Cto (5-28-06). I know the symphonies better.
--Schweiwikist 21:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] saxophone
Under "Expanded Instrumentation," I don't know of a single example of the saxophone or euphonium appearing in a 19th-century (or "Romantic") orchestral work. Examples should be provided or the references to 19th-century cases should be deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.174.92.166 (talk • contribs) . (Edit: Thanks, should have thought of the Bizet, I know that piece pretty well.) 66.174.92.166 04:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- For saxophone: Bizet, L'Arlésienne, (1872); Ambroise Thomas used one in Hamlet (1868); Massenet used them in a couple of operas (Hérodiade and Werther, both before 1900). Apparently most of the 19th century occurrences were in French music, and mostly in opera scores. Thanks for pointing this out: I haven't looked at this page for a long time. Antandrus (talk) 04:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] horns in LvB 9th
Deleted "for the first time," since four horns are called for in earlier symphonies (e.g. Mozart 25) and in other Beethoven works (e.g. the Leonore ov. #3). It was "for the first time" in a Beethoven symphony, but that seems fussy. Also clarified "extra" percussion in the finale of the 9th. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.174.92.166 (talk • contribs) . 66.174.92.166 04:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Diagram of standard seating arrgmts
I don't know why it's not included with this article, but it would be very useful to show the standard seating arrangements for the orchestra (i.e. brass section, winds section, percussion).
[edit] Beethoven's Influence?
The so-called "standard complement" of 'double winds and brass' is also the scoring of the last six London Symphonies (#99-#104) by Joseph Haydn (1793-1795). Beethoven was Haydn's student. I think it was Haydn who was setting the standard here. Beethoven's additions were limited to trombones (3,5,6,9), piccolo (5,6,9) and contrabassoon (9). DavidRF 07:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] violins importance, why?
Why are violins placed in the front? In general, why are them the most important part of the orchestra? (there are more violinists, her leader is only second to the conductor, etc) --euyyn 23:04, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Standard Orchestra
In my opinion there is no such thing as a standardized symphony orchestra in the classical period, it is more of a continuous evolution as one can see in the lists of the symphonies of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven here on the wikipedia. Haydn sometimes used an orchestra of two oboes, two horns and strings. In other cases he also used flute and bassoons. There is a very early symphony that uses four horns. The Mannheim orchestra is said to have used clarinets, but it was Mozart who standardized its use in the orchestra. And it's true that Beethoven used trombones, piccolo and contrabassoon. My point is that there were no standards, the ensemble was always changing, growing and improving to suite the composers musical needs (and also, very likely, the budget!). Cha daniels 23:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
