Talk:Orangutan

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This article is part of WikiProject Primates, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use primate resource. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.

I've modified the page to be in line with the other primate pages.--Mishac 06:14, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)


For more about orangutans, you can start at my page

http://www.duke.edu/~mym1/prof.html

I'll try to enhance the Wikipedia entry on orangutans soon.

Wouldn't a full-body image be more apropriate for a biological profile? Having a face-only photo doesn't really give us a good idea of what its body as a whole looks like.--Wranga 12:21, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would agree, but I've mostly given up on finding images that can be used on Wikipedia. Nearly all images are copyrighted by the photographer, and these can't be used without getting their permission. If you can find a better pic, please feel free to upload it after you've acquired permissions. - UtherSRG 18:56, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Orangutan species?

Isn't the splitting up of the Orangutan in two seperate species still controversial? What does Colin Groves' Primate Taxonomy say about the matter? Fedor 08:57, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Groves (which is the primary reference used for taxonomy in WP:PRIM articles) promotes the split into two species as shown here. - UtherSRG 12:15, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

I'm going of off what I remember from my High School Biology Class field trip from a few years ago so this is sketchy, sorry: The Melbourne Zoo has an Orangutan that is the product of parents of both species [the mother went off her birth control pill they put in the food and they didn't know until she was pregnant!] the result isn't as dramatic as what you get with a Lion & Tiger but it does have a number deficiencies and problems. LamontCranston 01:04, April 19, 2006 (UTC)

Orangutan hybrids are known, and yes, generally weaker and have a low survival rate. Did you have a point? Primate hybridization seems to be fairly common. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A famous Orangutan

A orangutan from Camp Leakey named Kosachi (mispelled). Has anyone heard of this Orangutan? If anyone has information on this Orangutan someone could make a article. --Contrib 20:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] OrangutanG

The spelling (and pronunciation) orangutang isn't incorrect. The -ng version has existed in English for longer than the -n version has, and in some languages ([1] [2]) the -ng is accepted as standard.

If someone wants to stay neutral, you can add a bit explaining that it is considered incorrect by some, and say who. Otherwise I'm removing the "incorrectly" label. --Ptcamn 22:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Just because it has existed, doesn't make it correct in English. How other languages officially mangle words is their own business. Let's see if i can find a reference that says orangutang is incorrect... - UtherSRG (talk) 22:59, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's one that says the final g is incorrect, despite the common usage error that our language trips us into making: http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/orangutan - UtherSRG (talk) 23:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
From your link:
Merriam-Webster has even given in and listed orangutang as an acceptable spelling. American Heritage allows orangoutang, indicating some confusion even among the experts.
Two against one. --Ptcamn 00:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Note the bolding I've added above. - UtherSRG (talk) 00:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. So we either put it back as it was (plainly and simply labelled as incorrect) or we leave it off. - UtherSRG (talk) 01:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Just saying it's an error doesn't make it one. This guy might think it is, but Merriam-Webster and the American Heritage Dictionary think otherwise. --Ptcamn 00:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Just because it is used, doesn't make it correct. Common usage includes the -g ending, but to list it as equal to the other uses perpetuates the error. An encyclopedia should be an educational tool. Listing all usages and noting which are incorrect fulfills the educational responibility. - UtherSRG (talk) 01:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
What it doesn't fulfill is the responsibility to maintain a neutral point of view. Not everyone thinks it's incorrect. Merriam-Webster and the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language don't think so, and they're dictionaries notable enough to have articles, unlike this AlphaDictionary. --Ptcamn 06:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The article as it is isn't trying to label any forms as "correct" or "incorrect" anyway. The fact that the article is named "orangutan", with the other variations existing only as Redirects, indicates that it is the preferred name among most circles. However, you can't try to convince the Wiki that the other circles which do use "orangutang" don't exist simply because you don't want them to. If I don't want to believe that atoms exist, then shall I delete Wikipedia's article on them? Cevlakohn
The article previously did note that "orangutang" was used, but labelled it as incorrect. --Ptcamn 01:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Hence my use of "as it is", not "as it was"... Cevlakohn

I think there's no need to call the -ng ending "incorrect". There seems to be disagreement among the dictionaries on this subject; it seems the best solution to just list a bunch of other possible spellings at the start of the article, without "labeling" one or more. It is also more likely to fulfil NPOV. Ucucha (talk) 17:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The Chambers Dictionary gives orang-utan as the headword and orang-outang as an alternative spelling. I agree that it's best just to list the alternative spellings and not worry about which ones are correct. Gdr 17:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Fine... how about tagging it as less common (or infrequently, or some other such tag). Google gives 3+ million hits for "orangutan", "orang-utan" and "orang utan", but less than 200k for "orangutang". - UtherSRG (talk) 19:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think all details should be in the intro. I believe it should be as concise as possible. You can explain such things later in the article. Ucucha (talk) 19:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think "orangutang" is about as valid as "hampster", but after seeing it listed by so many reputable to almost reputable sources, I would concede to including it in the article. I'm also for tagging it as less common, less formal, often viewed as invalid, or something like that. --Aranae 20:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I note that Charles Darwin uses just orang in his Descent of Man, though the index has Orang-Outan. Gdr 22:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I would say "orangutan" is normal. Orangutang is likely a result of a) our familiaraity with the orange drink Tang, b) spelling confusion from the first g in the word, or c) adding a hard ending to a word because it sounds like it needs one due to the [eː] ( IPA) sound. I always write "orang utan" as from Malay, and pronounce the word [oɹeːN utæːn]. Darwin probably used "urang" alone because in meaning it is akin to writing "Piltdown." One doesn't have to say "Piltdown man" every time one references the "species."--Dustin Asby 01:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added a section explaining the situation of orangutang, so readers can make up their own minds as to whether it's acceptable. Hopefully UtherSRG'll let this stay.

By the way, Dustin Asby, it's only Americans (AFAIK) who say [eː] for "ang"; elsewhere it's [æ]. --Ptcamn 01:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Merriam Webster on-line at least does not allow for "Orangutang" [3] nor apparently does American Heritage [4]. I believe we should list it as incorrect. Marskell 09:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster on-line actually lists the pronunciation with -ng *first*, and that with -n last. (Just listen to the recording.) That would seem to suggest that they regard it as common in speech but not in writing.
AHD doesn't list "orangutang", but it does have "orangoutang", with an o.
But even if this was not the case, we still mustn't list *anything* as "incorrect". We'd note that it's in use, but regarded as incorrect by (xyz). --Ptcamn 10:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
If MW doesn't accept it in writing we shouldn't imply that it does. This is a written, not an oral, reference work. I'll drop that one for now. For some bizarre reason Oxford concise on-line doesn't list orangutan at all. Marskell 13:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It is written, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss speech. --Ptcamn 15:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to make things more difficult, Stompin' Tom Connors has recorded a (fairly popular) song about kd lang, in which he describes her as having "jumped around like a 'rangytang". DS 14:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Malay name

Could someone find a source for the claim Orang utan is maias or mawas? As Malaysian myself (I know Malay) I haven't heard it myself although I'm not saying it's false. Neither the Malay or Indonesia articles appear to mention it from a quick read through and a search. A look in a Malay dictonary suggests mawas as an alternative name for orang hutan but a look under mawas suggests it means ape not orang hutan/orangutan. Since the orangutan was the only ape known to Malays at the time, and not knowing about the etymology of the word mawas one possibility is that it used to refer to orangutans but has been adopted to refer to apes in general. In any case, orang hutan or orangutan appears to be the prefered word for orangutan in Malay and from the Indonesian wikipedia, Indonesian. It's possible mawas or maias is still used (assuming it ever was used) by some people but the article as it stands is misleading IMHO. it would be helpful if we could sort out the etymology of the word mawas or maias but in the mean time, perhaps change it to say maias or mawas may sometimes be used instead? Nil Einne 15:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I've made an attempt to clarify. Better? - UtherSRG (talk) 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rape

Uther, I am wondering why you reverted my edit removing the word "rape" in reference to the Orangutan, I feel that this word is an improper humanization in this situation. I understand that it is forced copulation, and they are very similar to us, but I feel the word rape implies a certain moral wrong that is innappropriate when it is part of their normal behavior.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The word has been removed and re-added multiple times, for various reasons. The most compelling edit note was "orangutan rape is an important issue in anthropology. The language here neglects the issue entirely." - UtherSRG (talk) 14:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to concur with Moshe on this one. The word rape implies significant anthropomorphism. I'm going to switch it to Forced sexual encounters or equivalent. That's not to say it's not an important anthropological issue, just that the word rape carries pre-supposed meanings. 198.20.40.50 23:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect from Ponginae

Though Pongo is the only surviving genus of Ponginae I would like to see a page on the evolution of the subfamily, when it and homininae diverged, extict species and such. If one is looking for this information then the redirect to oranutan is not helpful at all. I don't have the expertise to make a page on Ponginae but I would be very interested in reading one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.41.206.199 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Orangs wild in Florida?

It took a moment to decipher the meaning of a passage introduced by User:James57, but if it is true that Orangs are living wild and free in Florida, then the contribution will need a citation and copy edits for clarity. Ombudsman 05:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I find the usage of the word "endangered" too POV. A better phrase would be "running out" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.175.12.253 (talk • contribs) .

"Endangered" is a well defined term and is used in the scientific community. "Running out" is neither well defined, nor used in the scientific community. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, what's next -- changing extinct to "not there"??? Mixalot 21:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
No extinct should be changed to mean they are living with the dinosaurs in another universe. Enlil Ninlil 22:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The World Conservation Union, the formal scientific body that creates all those familiar rankings of 'at risk' species, lists the Sumatran orangutan population as endangered (low numbers, population in verified decline, habitat loss, etc. - one of the top twenty five endangered primates on the planet. Endangered is not POV if used in this context, and is definitely appropriate. - it is a science-based ranking, there is more info at www.iucn.org 74.12.64.142 02:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)Bangthedrum

[edit] Orangutans?

Just curious, why is the plural form preferred in the taxobox? —Sengkang 16:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It's about both (two, multiple, plural) species. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
If this is the case, does it mean that every article about an animal with a general name with more than one species or genera (e.g. Elephant) should appear in the plural form for the taxobox? —Sengkang 16:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes. "Should" being the operative word. I fix it when I notice it's incorrect. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
IMO, I think the taxobox's title should be consistent with the article name. Just wondering if this naming convention has been agreed upon by the wiki community? —Sengkang 17:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forest Fires

Shouldn't there be something about this[5] in the article, since it's affecting the population.--andrew|ellipsed...Talk 05:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Please add it. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I would, but honestly, I don't know where. *embarassed smiley* -andrew|ellipsed...Talk 22:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I suggest somewhere in that conservation section. In fact, it already gets the briefest of mentions. --Merbabu 23:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laughter

I removed the following two recently added paragraphs from the article. A few reasons:

  • It's unreferenced
  • It's two long
  • It actually talks about chimpanzees

The only reason I have put it here is because I am no expert (zoologist???) on the subject and thought that perhaps some of i might be useable.

Laughter might not be confined or unique to humans, despite Aristotle's observation that "only the human animal laughs". The differences between chimpanzee and human laughter may be the result of adaptations that have evolved to enable human speech. However, some behavioural psychologists argue that self-awareness of one's situation, or the ability to identify with somebody else's predicament, are prerequisites for laughter, so animals are not really laughing in the same way that we do.

Chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans show laughter-like vocalizations in response to physical contact, such as wrestling, play chasing, or tickling. This is documented in wild and captive chimpanzees. Chimpanzee laughter is not readily recognizable to humans as such, because it is generated by alternating inhalations and exhalations that sound more like breathing and panting. The differences between chimpanzee and human laughter may be the result of adaptations that have evolved to enable human speech. There are instances in which non-human primates have been reported to have expressed joy. One study analyzed and recorded sounds made by human babies and bonobos also known as pygmy chimpanzees were tickled. It found although the bonobo’s laugh was a higher frequency, the laugh followed the same spectrographic pattern of human babies to include as similar facial expressions. Humans and chimpanzees share similar ticklish areas of the body such as the armpits and belly. The enjoyment of tickling in chimpanzees does not diminish with age. Discovery 2003A chimpanzee laughter sample. Goodall 1968 & Parr 2005 Merbabu 01:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture

PLease keep WP serious. Popular culture lists are no better than the dreaded Trivia list - they have no link or relevance to the topic. It provides nothing for our understanding of orang hutan, knowing that an orang hutan appeared in TV X or Y does nothing for my knowledge of oranghutans. The argument of precedent is also invalid. Just because other pages have such sections doesn't mean they are of value. Would you suggest then that on the Australian page there is a mention of Corodile Dundee? of The American President (the movie) on the Sydney page? May I put mention of Mission Impossible 3 on the China page? Or Shanghai? I think not. What's the difference with Orang Hutan? --Merbabu 13:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I remind both of you of WP:3RR. --Scott Davis Talk 14:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I am well aware of it - nor do i have a history of even getting close to it. Do you have anything to add to the topic at hand? regards Merbabu 14:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
You've reverted three times, so you are close to it.--Prosfilaes 14:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I followed your lead. ;-) Merbabu 14:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
You mean, please keep WP stodgy. If it adds nothing to your knowledge, then don't bother reading it. Crocodile Dundee isn't on the Australia page, because Australia is a continent, with many many subpages, probably including ones on the pop culture of Australia. This popular culture section gives us several examples of how orangutans are viewed in film and writing.--Prosfilaes 14:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a pop culture mag. If you personally find encyclopedias stodgy....
Not stodgy => focussed, relevant, value added, not lazy, not toilet paper [6]. "Examples of oranghutans are viewed in film and writing". The items listed are completely irrelevant. Despite the misguided efforts of many, Wikipedia is not meant to be a repositroy of pointless facts and trivia that do not contribute to the understanding of orang hutans. The "don't read it then excuse" is not good enough. There are many things in wikipedia that don't interest me. It doesn't mean that i don't see these things as valid and relevant and quality. Can we seriously say that we have a better understanding of orang hutans because as reader's we now know that and OH is freed from a lab in 'Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back'? Really? that helps? If it doesn't, then is pollution of the article. Wikipedia is not [7]. As for "how oranghutans are viewed in films". That's rubbish. That's not a topic. That's just a list of Trivia appearances. And trivia sux --Merbabu 14:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not paper, so it's not toilet paper. The article you link to as "trivia sux" says in fact that trivia sections should be kept and eventually rewritten. Yes, I think the only place in the article where it mentions orangutans used in labs is useful. The section isn't pointless; it shows how orangutans reflect on the world of popular culture, how the stories we tell depend on these creatures.
I really fail to see how casual abbreviations and slang, even on a talk page, help Wikipedia.--Prosfilaes 14:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Please stick to commenting on the editor and not the editor. --Merbabu 15:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Nowhere in the above statement did I comment on the editor.--Prosfilaes 16:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
(after edit conflicts) I have no opinion. Crocodile Dundee is linked from Culture of Australia, Cinema of Australia and Arts in Australia. The first of these is a daughter article (main article for a section topic) of Australia. The other two are daughters of that. I'm not sure if that proves anything to either of you. --Scott Davis Talk 14:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Crocodile Dundee was a character the first example that came to me - but let's look at what you found. Crocodile Dunee is arguably part of Australian culture, certainly cinema, and arguably the arts depending on one's opinion, and would thus belong there - it's not the same as putting mention of a film on a fauna. I still don't see the link between a real creature and fictitious characters. It woudl make more sense to link/mention the orang hutan characters on equivalent culture pages - not a on a species page. Culture and biology don't mix. Merbabu 14:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
If culture and biology don't mix, why do we start the page out with a section on etymology? This is not a biology page; this is a page about orangutans, including orangutans in popular culture. It would be massive overkill to move that to a separate page.--Prosfilaes 15:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
It desribes the origins of the name which means 'person of the forest'. More relevant than an OH who sits on Eastwoods shoulder.--Merbabu 15:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
What's an OH? Orangutan has no H in it. So we drop the whole biology and culture thing, and now we're back to your decision about what's relevant and what's not.--Prosfilaes 16:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Great, now you are discussing my choice of abbreviations on talk pages. Will you continue to point out my speling errors? As i said, discuss edits to the article, not the editors.
As for relevance, the section is essentially still a glorified trivia section. Hidden behind a new paragraph structure and meaningless own commentary its just a list of where orang hutans have appeared in films. There is no theme, or point to it. --Merbabu 16:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
You've introduced the same misspelling into the article. A serious encyclopedia needs to maintain some standards in both the articles and between the editors, and using ad-hoc abbreviations and repeated misspellings doesn't help communication. There is a theme: orangutans in culture. There is a point; this is where orangutans have been used in culture, this is how people see them.--Prosfilaes 08:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the recent re-write (to get around 3RR?) it is marginally better but still irrelevant. It is also smacks of synthesis to make a position [8] - ie, it's WP:OR. Not to mention unreferenced.--Merbabu 14:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is a line like "An example of orang hutan in popular culture in one of Edgar Allen Poe's stories, which was a murderous beast." doing in a "serious" encyclopedia? "orang hutan" isn't a word, and the whole thing isn't a sentence. Likewise, "Later examples offer a more a view of a more civilized ape." doesn't parse as an English sentence.--Prosfilaes 15:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
If you find a grammar error, or prose problems. please fix them. The problem was - as I have explained - is that it is editorialisation and OR. Ie "Orangutans have a relatively short history in Western popular culture." Also, please fix these issues in the comments: [9] - otherwise, it is just a list.--Merbabu 15:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you fix the problems, instead of trashing other people's work?--Prosfilaes 15:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't actually understand the significance of the work - hence i asked you as you are insisting on it. Significance needs to be evident in the article. I am not sure "trashing" is the best expression - I have removed (some of the) OR and requested citations. Is that trashing? I don't believe we can excuse those because of grammar or notions of better prose. --Merbabu 16:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
One of your first edits to this article was to delete an entire section, and then label a bunch of other people's edits "misguided efforts" (which, by the way, is an attack on the editor.) May I note that Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles says "Whenever you see a "trivia section", take a look at each fact and consider how you might integrate it into the larger text, whether by inserting it into a section, adding a new section, or creating a more targeted list of closely-related items, such as Cameos or Continuity errors.", not "Delete trivia sections wherever they may be found."--Prosfilaes 08:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I said above that I had no opinion. I've formed one now. The current bulleted list is ugly and requires urgent action.

I don't reject "popular culture" sections outright, there could be a suitable section written for this article, but this is not it. It should be written in prose, have a few references added, and be somewhat interesting and relate to orangutans. As it is now, it's no more than a list of movies containing dogs, maybe as good as list of movies starring dogs. The fact that the list is shorter for orangutans than for dogs doesn't make it any more interesting or noteworthy. Lets have some references saying something like "Orangutans are usually portrayed as ..." (insert smart, powerful, stupid, manipulative, playful, whatever). --Scott Davis Talk 10:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

  • All I'll add is that consensus should be reached before any more edits including or removing the "pop culture" section are done. This isn't WP:LAME yet, but it is getting there quickly.--Isotope23 17:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a compromise is one that has been used on other serious articles when someone tries to load them up with trivia, that is establish a Orangutans in Popular Culture article. This leaves everybody happy. --Michael Johnson 00:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

There you go, I've done it. --Michael Johnson 00:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Skin Color

There seem to be white-skinned Orangutans and black-skinned ones -- please describe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.7.28.88 (talk) 07:50, 25 December 2006 (UTC).


[edit] Population

Where is the citation for the population figure? 60,000 Orangutan global population total is in stark contrast to the Rijksen & Meijaard survey carried out in 1999 that denotes a global population of 27,000 see here:[10] Monkeyspearfish 11:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] invagination

A friend told me that he had seen a documentary on animal homosexuality that mentioned that male Orang-utans can make their penises invaginate, so that they can mate with each other. I can't find any reference to this on the web, neither for Orang Utans, nor for other primates. Have any of you heard of such a thing? --Slashme 08:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Your friend was most likely pulling your leg. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you sure it was a leg being pulled? ;-) Merbabu 12:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Maybe I'm a bit too gullible, or maybe he is. --Slashme 05:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diet

Why is there seemingly no details about the orang-utan's diet here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.90.238.198 (talk • contribs).

Why haven't you added it here? I don't have the info. Do you? - UtherSRG (talk) 15:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
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