Talk:Oral Torah

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[edit] Oral traditions of Islam

I have noticed that the oral traditions of Islaam(see the article titled hadith)contains criticism of the science of Hadith yet Jewish oral history doesn't. Are the Jewish oral traditions above scepticism? Have any sceptic views about the Jewish oral traditions been added to this article, if so where they deleted?

Note: See also Talmud and Mishnah

[edit] NPOV

I don't believe in adding or removing critcism for the sake of "balance". If there is notable sourced criticism it should be add, if not we do not need to artifically created it. Jon513 18:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
As of this date, this articles is written strictly from a Hassidic (a particular branch of Haredi Judaism) perspective, in which the whole corpus of Jewish tradition, (Hassidim include the Kabbalah), is regarded as having come from Moses at Sinai. It desn't even reflect the views of all of Orthodox Judaism, let alone more liberal branches. Indeed Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism reject these views entirely and regard Oral Law as essentially consisting of folk tales and folk customs. Conservative Judaism takes a position which takes Oral Law more seriously, but more or less regards it as consisting of revelation subject to extensive historical development. --Shirahadasha 12:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defining Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai

Note: The article Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai was recently copied and redirected to Oral Torah. User:Bloger has been objecting to this move in principle, see his arguments reproduced in full below. All discussion/s should be centralized here. Please add your views if you know something about thgis subject. Thank you. IZAK 08:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The following was posted on Talk:Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai [1]

Oral Torah

It seems that this topic must be identical to or a subset of Oral Torah. I will move it there if noone objects. --Eliyak T·C 15:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Eliyak:
As per your suggestion that the article be merged it has to be pointed out that the reason I made a separate article is that although Halacha l’moshe m’sinai can be referred to as oral torah they are two different things, while oral torah is what is called in Hebrew torah shebiktav, Halacha l’moshe m’sinai is what is referred to as sinaitic commandments.
Bloger 18:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Bloger: Yet, Halacha l’moshe m’sinai although it entails content from "Sinai," is an "oral" teaching, and that's where it belongs. IZAK 07:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear IZAK:
I disagree! Although Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai is in fact oral given thet it is not written, yet it is not what oral Torah is in Jewish law.
Oral Torah is what we say in Hebrew Torah she-be'al peh and is quite different from Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai, both from a factual point of view, and moreover from a halakhic point of view.
For an uninformed reader thet is looking for facts, putting both Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai and Torah she-be'al peh together under oral Torah is confusing and misleading and doesn’t serve the purpose of informing the reader, as should every article in wikipedia.
Bloger 18:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Call me uninformed, but I've never heard halakha l'Moshe mi-Sinai used outside the context of the Talmud, ie, the oral law. At times the gemara will conclude that something is not derivable from the Torah, but is instead halakha l'Moshe mi-Sinai. Does this mean it is not part of the Oral Torah? I find that highly doubtful. --Eliyak T·C 19:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I am posting this discussion here from my talk page IZAK 08:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC):

Dear IZAK:

I disagree! Although Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai is in fact oral given thet it is not written, yet it is not what oral Torah is in Jewish law.

Oral Torah is what we say in Hebrew Torah she-be'al peh and is quite different from Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai, both from a factual point of view, and moreover from a halakhic point of view.

For an uninformed reader thet is looking for facts, putting both Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai and Torah she-be'al peh together under oral Torah is confusing and misleading and doesn’t serve the purpose of informing the reader, as should every article in wikipedia. Bloger 18:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Bloger, Are you by any chance using the Torah in "Oral Torah" in its more general sense of "teaching", so that "Oral Torah" includes rabbinical pronouncements, such as (for example) Pirkei Avot, while Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai consists of that subset of oral rabbinical teaching which is Siniatic in origin? Is this the distinction you are making? If not, a few examples of things that are "oral Torah" but not Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai (and why) would be helpful to clarify how you are defining these two terms. Best, --Shirahadasha 10:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It may also be that we have a difference between Haredi Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism perspectives. Haredi Judaism has the idea that Moses forsaw all the customs people would eventually devise so that these customs are in some sense as much law as law directly from God and cannot be changed. From a Modern perspective there is a core of Halakha that is from Moses, but decrees and customs are human-made, there is no reason to believe Moses foresaw everything, and hence there is somewhat more potential for flexibility. (Moderns make something of a joke about the idea of Moses going up to Sinai eating gefilte fish and wearing a black hat.) --Shirahadasha 12:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too POV?

It is obvious that this article has an Orthodox Jewish position on the Oral Law/Tradition, and it takes an assuming stance that its premise of "Torah from G-d's mouth to Moses's ear" is true. Perhaps the views of more liberal movements should be included (as with the case of the halakha article, among others)? How about more critical (in the vein of biblical criticism) views? Perhaps some contrarian views are in order, as well. Nonetheless, this article may have to be tagged, as it has only shown the views of one perspective. --OneTopJob6 08:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Attempted to clarify the view presented, which is not only Orthodox but Hared and Hassidic. Rewrote definition of Oral law and Halakha LeMoshe MiSinai to soften Haredi perspective that the whole corpus of Jewish tradition is regarded as coming directly from Sinai and that not everyone in Orthodoxy accepts the Kabbalah as such, either. Provided "according to"s in some cases. Someone from a more liberal perspective would be needed to supply more liberal views. --Shirahadasha 12:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Internal Evidence / Rabbinic Laws

I have removed the following two entries from the "Internal evidence" section. They do provide support for the observance of rabbinic laws (mi-d'rabanan) during Biblical times, but not for the Oral Law having been transmitted to Moshe (Torah shebe'al peh – mi-d'oraita):

Actually, I am not 100% sure that the second is truly an example of a rabbinic law.

--Eliyak T·C 19:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

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