Talk:Operant conditioning
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[edit] Regarding article merging
Looking at the articles in question, I think that the Reinforcement article should not be merged into Operant Conditioning. The Reinforcement article has a good level of detail that makes itself stand as an article on its own. Adding to that the proposal to merge Schedules of Reinforcement into Reinforcement, and the amount of redundant content would bog down the entire article. I think that elements of the Schedule of Reinforcement article can be successfully merged into Reinforcement. But Operant Conditioning already does enough of an overview of reinforcement not to warrant Reinforcement being merged into it. That would detract from the broader focus of the Operant Conditioning article, which should be more about the modification of behavior (operant procedures) rather than the details about the tool used to modify behavior (reinforcement). Lunar Spectrum | Talk 01:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Potential section about biological basis of operant conditioning
In the section "Factors that alter the effectiveness of consequences" I included the mention of how certain factors are the result of biology. For example, I mentioned that the principles of Immediacy and Contingency are the result of the statistical probability of dopamine to modify the appropriate synapses. However, the necessity of an entire section devoted to the biological basis of operant procedures is becoming clear. I used the dopamine reference only to support the section about "Factors that alter the effectiveness of consequences," but already more biological references have been added to that section. They are good references and should be kept, but they should be moved to their own section because they do not contribute anything to the subject of the section they are currently in.
I think that the biological section should be the second section, placed right after the "Reinforcement, punishment, and extinction" section. It would be a good way to structure the article to first have exposition on reinforcement, punishment, and extinction procedures, then have a three-part section immediately following it to explain the neurophysiological effects of reinforcing stimulation, aversive stimulation, and extinction. An alternative to this might be to simply add such a discussion to each of the existing corresponding articles on reinforcement, punishment, and extinction. --Lunar Spectrum | Talk 00:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Simplification
What is it that needs simplyfing? Operant conditioning is difficult to understand and does not lend itself to simple explanations.
- I don't think it's as complicated as phrases like "is the modification of behavior (the actions of animals) brought about by the consequences that follow upon the occurrence of the behavior." would make it seem. Elf | Talk 04:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't see what need simplifying. Maybe it's because of my Psychology background that this page seems crystal clear to me.
[edit] Negative Reenforcement/ Negative Punishment
I believe the article has transposed the definitions for Negative Reenforcement and Negative Punishment. Negative Reenforcement is the removal (negative) of a reenforcing stimulus (such as a child's toy) to discourage a behavior. Negative Punishment is the removal (negative) of a punishing stimulus (such as a loud noise) to encourage a behavior.
I haven't edited the article because I may be missing something. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.76.223.253 (talk • contribs).
- No, because punishment always discourages a behaviour, and reinforcement always encourages a behaviour. Taking away a toy removes a pleasant stimulus, thus discouraging the behaviour (which makes it punishment). Taking away a loud noise removes an unpleasant stimulus, thus encouraging the behaviour (which makes it reinforcement).
- Even intuitively, it doesn't make sense to punish a child (for example) by removing something unpleasant - "Since you didn't clean up, you don't have to do your homework tommorrow!" =) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.128.232.250 (talk • contribs).
- Right; I'm going to rephrase it--reread the definitions of terms, because they're not used in exactly the same way that most people use the terms individually in regular conversation; as 129.128.232.250 said :
- Reinforcment is something that causes a behavior to increase in frequency
- Punishment is something that causes a behavior to decrease in frequency
- Positive is simply adding something (note that adding something unpleasant is still adding something; people tend to think of "positive" as meaning "something nice", but in behavior science, that's not what it means)
- Negative is simply removing something (whether pleasant or unpleasant)
- For example, then, "negative punishment" is the REMOVAL of SOMETHING to cause a behavior to DECREASE.
- Elf | Talk 05:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- ~ChocoboFreak~To put it in the simplest way I can, it isn't "Since you didn't clean up, you don't have to do your homework tommorrow!". Think of a rat in a box. You want it to learn to press a button frequently. One way of doing it is to make sure that the rat contiunously receives mild electric shocks (the unpleasant stimulus) unless it presses the button. If the rat presses the button, an unpleasant stimulus is taken away (so it is more likely to want to press the button again). To use your homework analogy, it's like letting the child do their homework the next day if they do something good.
According the operant conditioning, if you want a child to clean their room, you could punish them for having it dirty (Positive Punishment: adding something which is not good for them: say, smacking them/Negative Punishment: taking something away that they like: say, a toy). That's what most parents think about when they think about changing a child's behaviour. You could, however, reward them for cleaning it when they clean it (Positive reinforcement: Giving them something to make them more likely to repeat the behaviour: say, giving them money/Negative Reinforcement: taking away something bad when they do something good: in my example of the rat, it's taking away the electric shocks).~ChocoboFreak~
[edit] Suggestions for additions
- Mention the primary and antithetical approach to psychology-- Cognition. Cognition and
Behaviorism are mutually incompatible. Although the operant conditioning approach works well for some contexts (e.g. animal training), the cognitive approach accomplishes the same, but using a different mechanism.
- Might be worth mentioning the failed application of Operant conditioning to human language learning, and Chomsky's critique (it's already in the behaviorism article).
- Add new section on Animal Training. There is already an entry animal training, but note here the technical issues: Note examples of 'positive reinforcement' and 'positive punishment' training techniques. Also note that although 'modern' animal trainers consider themselves to use OC, they often rely on techniques that are not strictly operant conditioning in the original Skinnerian sense, e.g. bridging.
Santaduck 03:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cat or rat?
At first it said the person worked w/ cats but then it said rats!! Which one is it?
~ChocoboFreak~ Skinner worked with rats, Thorndike worked with cats. It appears to have been fixed. Somebody probably just got the two people mixed up.
[edit] Consequences
The consequences link doesn't really make sense.128.213.28.129 20:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- What? You don't think a parlour game is a crucial piece of operant conditioning? (Removed link.) Elf | Talk 23:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Not clear on prey drive activity not being a reward
New section includes this paragraph:
- "In dog training, the use of the prey drive, particularly in training working dogs, detection dogs, etc., the stimulation of these fixed action patterns, relative to the dog's predatory instincts, are the key to producing very difficult yet consistent behaviors, and in most cases, do not involve operant, classical, or any other kind of conditioning."
So I don't understand what the point is--that allowing the dog to indulge prey drive when they do something correct is NOT a positive reinforcement? It seems to me like it is. Dog does the weave poles really fast, they get the tug toy. Dog doesn't go as fast, dog doesn't get to play tug. How is that not a positive reinforcer? Elf | Talk 00:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
~ChocoboFreak: It seems like it is a positive reinforcer to me as well. "This is because the prey drive, once started, follows an inevitable sequence: the search, the eye-stalk, the chase, the grab-bite, the kill-bite". According to this, it seems close to being classical conditioning (in a way).
The section on prey drive is inconsistent with the rest of the article. Not everyone agrees that tracking or working dogs have to be rewarded every time; this is more the author's bias than fact, especially without seeing any citations. It is stated that prey drive is an example of an exception to operant conditioning. This is conjecture, as again no sources are cited. Giving the toy or throwing the ball is an addition of something the animal wants - therefore it is positive reinforcement. Even though this is not a food reward, it is a conditioned reinforcer. If the animal does something correctly, it is given this reinforcement. We really don't care why the animal wants the reward. The fact that it works for the reward makes it operant conditioning.
- 08/28/2006 I believe that the author of the "prey drive" section may be misunderstanding an aspect of the limitations placed on the effectiveness of a reinforcer and is seeing it as a refutation of operant procedures. Within operant conditioning, there are indeed a number of factors that can reduce how effective a reinforcer can be. The factor the author seems to reference is Satiation. Obviously, if the dog's reward is a big meal, this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of reinforcement using treats because their hunger is already satiated. That is why trainers will use a variety of different reinforcers, such a treats, toys, and praise, in order train their animal. But this does not, as the author claims, constitute a "drawback" of operant conditioning. It's just how reinforcement works. It would not be favorable for evolution to produce a species that can always be reinforced by the same thing to no end. If food were ALWAYS a reinforcer, we'd spend our whole lives at the dinner table and never be able stop. That is why we have various biological mechanisms that regulate the effectiveness of a reinforcer depending on our bodies' needs. Behaviorists call these "Establishing Operations" and the article would probably benefit from their mention. --Lunar Spectrum
OK, going by a suggestion on the new contributor's question page, I'm going to lay out what I think should be done with this section. The whole "drawbacks and limitations" section needs to be redone. Obviously, Behavior Analysis tends to draw a lot of ire and so the popular insistence for such a section, no matter how badly done, is very strong. However, the opening paragraph on the "drawbacks" section illustrates this problem nicely. A Nobel laureate is cited as stating that operant conditioning doesn't take into account "fixed" reflexes, yet in the very same paragraph we have an explanation (though incomplete) about how operant conditioning isn't supposed to deal with reflexes to begin with because the form of a reflex is, as mentioned, biologically fixed in form, whereas operant behavior is defined as behavior whose form is modifiable by consequences. This demonstrates something that BF Skinner himself noted, that a person's criticism of Behavior Analysis is inversely proportional to how much they actually understand it (a phenomenon that also holds true for other scientific models, like Evolution by Natural Selection). I intend to keep that criticism of the Nobel laureate in the article, but expand upon the paragraph to explain Skinner's rationale for not including reflexes as a form of operant behavior.
Also, the entire "prey drive" portion needs to be removed. In its place would be a listing of factors that alter the effectiveness of consequences, factors such as what I previously mentioned about "satiation." It could look like this:
- Satiation: The effectiveness of a consequence will be reduced if the individual's "appetite" for that source of stimulation has been satisfied. Inversely, the effectiveness of a consequence will increase as the individual becomes deprived of that stimulus. If someone is not hungry, food will not be an effective reinforcer for behavior.
- Contingency: If a consequence does not contingently (reliably, or consistently) follow the target response, its effectiveness upon the response is reduced. But if a consequence follows the response reliably, it's effectiveness is increased. If someone has a habit of getting to work late, but is only occassionally reprimanded for their lateness, the reprimand will not be a very effective punishment.
- Immediacy: After a response, how immediately a consequence is then felt determines the effectiveness of the consequence. If someone's liscense plate is caught by a traffic camera for speeding and they receive a speeding ticket in the mail a week later, this consequence will not be very effective against speeding. But if someone is speeding and is caught in the act by an officer who pulls them over, then their speeding behavior is more likely to be affected.
- Size: This is a "cost-benefit" determinant of whether a consequence will be effective. If the size, or amount, of the consequence is large enough to be worth the effort, the consequence will be more effective upon the behavior. An unusually large lottery jackpot, for example, might be enough to get someone to buy a one-dollar lottery ticket (or even buying multiple tickets). But if a lottery jackpot is small, the same person might not feel it worth the effort to drive out and find a place to buy a ticket. In this example, it's also useful to note that "effort" is a punishing consequence. How these opposing expected consequences (reinforcing and punishing) balance out will determine whether the behavior is performed or not.
I will wait approximately a week (maybe more) for further feedback about my intended alterations. Afterwards, I will see how much of what I have included above I will implement. Lunar Spectrum 05:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Nearly a month has passed and there is no comment about my suggestion. I think I will simply add what I have outlined above in a new section and deal with the prey-drive section some other time. --Lunar Spectrum | Talk 02:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Negative reinforcement and punishment
For what it's worth, note in passing that Karen Pryor: Don't Shoot the Dog! defines negative reinforcement and punishment differently. To Pryor, the main difference is timing. A negative reinforcement is something disagreeable that the subject can immediately stop by changing his behavior. A punishment is something that happens later that the subject cannot immediately stop by changing his behavior. If Auntie frowns when I put my feet on the coffee table, and stops frowning when I take them off, that is what Pryor calls a negative reinforcement. If I get a bad grade on my report card that reflects all the work I haven't done in class this year, that is what Pryor calls a punishment. Pryor notes that even though punishment is everyone's favorite method of untraining unwanted behavior, it rarely works because the subject usually has difficulty connecting the punishment with the behavior; often, the subject learns to evade punishment instead.
The behaviorist psychologist H. J. Eysenck talks in similar terms in his book Psychology Is About People, Chapter 3. He insists on talking about positive and negative reinforcement instead of reward and punishment, despite the clumsiness of his preferred terms, because with rewards and punishments the timing may make it difficult for the subject to connect the result with the behavior.
[edit] Extinction, other suggestions
I'm not too sure what goes ineffective when extinction occurs. I assume its the reward (the pellet)... but then it seems like the behavior became extinct. Regardless, I'm confused and this paragraph ought to be clarified.
Extinction is a related term that occurs when a behavior (response) that had previously been reinforced is no longer effective. In the Skinner box experiment, this is the rat pushing the lever and being rewarded with a food pellet several times, and then pushing the lever again and never receiving a food pellet again. Eventually the rat would cease pushing the lever.
I would also explain in the intro that Operant Conditioning is not absolute - it doesn't ensure that the subject will always perform a task (as using the prey drive I gather does.) That little factoid came out of the blue in that section.
[edit] Merges
Useful info on both articles... Schedule of reinforcement should not be an article. Reinforcement probably shouldnt be - both should redirect here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thuglas (talk • contribs) 05:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
- If we do merge both articles, the current article may be too big to read. See article size for more information.--Janarius 14:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I was kinda thinking that so i put a second link to merge schedules of reinforcement into reinforcment. perhaps a little thing on extrinsic and intrinsic reinforcement and secondary/primary reinforcement could be added thuglasT|C 17:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
- I was thinking the same thing, but we probably need more opinions to decide on that matter. About primary/secondary reinforcement, is it also called primary or unconditioned reinforcer or is it something else?--Janarius 16:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
yeah i think that would work primary means food or something secondary means money the differences between extrinsic/intrinsic and primary are very little, but for some reason they remain seperate in my mind
i figure if noone complains in a week or so we should go ahead and be WP:bold ive posted the link on WP psych. i dont think anyone would disagree with this idea.
- As I mentioned at the top of the page (wasn't clear on whether there was a convention of putting more recent talk page content at the top or at the bottom) I think it would be good to merge Schedules of reinforcement into Reinforcement, but not Reinforcement into Operant conditioning. Like someone else mentioned before, Reinforcement merged into OC could be too large and Reinforcement has more than enough content to merit its own article and already stands on its own. The focus of the Operant Conditioning article should be on operant procedures, which use consequences to modify behavior. Reinforcement is only one of a group of different kinds of consequences and is in no way the "be-all end-all" of Operant conditioning and to merge them would seriously disrupt the balance of the OC article in that respect.
- As for primary and secondary reinforcers, the equivalent terms for these are unconditioned and conditioned reinforcers, not intrinsic or extrinsic. An extrinsically reinforced response would be a behavior that is reinforced with externally delivered consequences (which CAN include food or other primary reinforcers, as well as secondary reinforcers), while an intrinsically reinforced response is a behavior that is rewarding in and of itself without the need for delivering a reinforcer, which is called automatic reinforcement (ie. the performance of the behavior itself is also the reinforcer, like with a "runner's high" or reading for pleasure).Lunar Spectrum | Talk 00:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
