Talk:Old English Terrier

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[edit] Images

If it became extinct by 1900, the possibility of finding a photo is quite slim. What is wrong with the painting currently displayed? 64.231.115.217 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Duke

Nothing, but we will take other pics, paintings or etchings to build up the article. Cordially SirIsaacBrock 23:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terrier Names

I have redirected "Old English Terrier" to what the dog is known as today -- the Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier. The term "Old English Terrier" was a shorthand for "Old English Broken-Coated terrier" which later became the Kennel Club Welsh Terrier and the non-Kennel Club Fell Terrier or Patterdale terrier; both breeds still exist today and commonly found in the hunt field.

The Old English Terrier is NOT a white dog, and it is not the English White Terrier (a dog known by that name by Vero Shaw, Rawdon Briggs, Brian Plummer and every other dog writer I am aware of).

The original "Old English Terrier" post plagiarised, without attribution the breed description of an Englisg White Terrier from Rawdon Lee Briggs' "Modern Dogs" (1894), and quoted no source for its incorrect assertions about the history of the breed. I have left in Briggs' breed description in the English White Terrier post on Wiki (with attribution, of course), and also quoted extensively from Brigg's decription of that breed and its history. Briggs was a top field dog expert and show ring judge during the entire time that the English White Terrier was a breed. Most of the folks interested in the Black and Tan and English White Terrier are folks cobbling up fake histories for fighting dog breeds, none of which have anything to do with either the Black and Tan terrier or the English White Terrier. - PBurns

 - PB

Headphonos was asked to come up with a source for his assertion that the "Old English Terrier is the same as the English white terrier. He could cite any source from 1860-1920 when the terrier was extent, or any source from the working terrier literature (i.e. those who hunt their terriers), but not the bulldog literature which is notoriously wrong and full of pretenders. I noted three sources for my claim from the first group (Rawdon Lee, Vero Shaw and Leighton), and two from the latter (Plummer and Fier-Murza). Here are the citations offered by Headphonos, which are being deleted as they do not support his claim or are otherwise laughable:

1. Concise Britannica Encyclopedia This article actually refernces the English White Terrier or White English Terrier, proving the opposite of what Headphonos asserts.

2. Depaco This is a bull dog breeders cite of no authority, written in colloquial style and it too says the dog was "probably the White English Terrier, Black and Tan - or/and - the Fox Terrier". In short, it says the opposite of what Headphonos asserts.

3. Old English TerrierThis is a link to a spambot encyclopedia that, like an earlier citation to another spambot web site Headphonos cited, was created purely to sell the ad space around it. The dog shown in the pcture here is a brown and white AKC fox terrier, and it not a "old english terrier" (whatever that is) or an English White terrier (see breed description from Rawdon Lee).

Bottom line: There is no source for Headphonos' claim, and it is being deleted for what it apparently is -- bunk. - PBurns3711

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• Thanks for the info, PBurns3711. I will make a list to sort this out in my brain as I did for the bulldogs. Please see this (still in process and occasionally added to by me) if interested. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 11:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failure to Use Reliable Sources

Headphonos fails to cite reliable sources. As the Wikipedia guidlines make clear:

• "If all the sources for a given statement or topic are of low reliability, this suggests to the reader that the content be treated with a degree of skepticism, and to the editor that the material may not be suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia.... Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion can always be considered reliable." [1]

Unfortunately, those are NOT the sources Headphonos cites. Instead, he has engaged in a revert war, again counter to Wikipedia guidelines.

"Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it."[2]

In fact, this was done, noting that the Old English Terrier is, in fact, another dog that was far heavier that the toy dog that is the English White Terrier. Headphonos answer to this was to simply "revert" to an incorrect and poorly supported allegation. The above appears to be from 18:56, January 15, 2007 PBurns3711.

PBurns3711 - I agree, completely. I am all for reliable sources. You'll find my participation in at least 3 recent AfDs regarding the bulldogs; sometimes I'm for keeping, sometimes for deletion, depending on my research. I mention the bulldog "mess" since I see a similar kind of "mess" with some of the terriers; Headphonos is involved with articles from each of these dog groups. Keesiewonder 01:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)