Talk:Ojibwa

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[edit] To do to improve

Yeah. I know this article is much, much more than a "start". However, it is far from being a "B" as well. So now what?

  1. untagle the list of Bands (we're working on this)
  2. list of Anishinaabe and non-Anishinaabe Nations absorbed into the Ojibwe
  3. more on history at each of the "Stopping Places"
  4. short intro on treaty areas with a link to a main article about treaty areas
  5. better reference linking
  6. list of "Further reading" recommendations
  7. Many more links for "See also"
    1. Possibly move the list of Bands its own article?
    2. Possibly move the list of Treaties to its own article?
    3. Possibly have a list of notable Ojibwe individuals in its own article?

I'm sure there are more. However, if we get just this much, I'm sure we'll think up more aspects to include. CJLippert 15:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

More than anything, I think this article needs information on the Ojibwa in the 20th and 21st centuries. Someone who didn't know any better could be led to believe the Ojibwa went extinct in the 19th century. Recent information is difficult because of the diverse experiences of Ojibwe bands in different parts of North America, but it's necessary to find some common themes.
I would support a separate article for the list of bands that could integrate historical bands and tribal possessions. List of treaties would be useful as a separate article to. I would also suggest an article on the "Ojibwa clan system" or "Ojibwa doomems" as there is so much information already, and so much more that could be written on the duties and stories of each doodem, where they are found, etc. My two cents.

Leo1410 22:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Anishinaabe clan system article started. CJLippert 20:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Inconsistent shifting between Sioux and Dakota

It is my understanding that the names Sioux and Dakota refer to the same peoples. Is this correct? And if so, it is confusing to use both terms without an explanation in the Ojibwa article.

  BlueCanoe 12/20/04

Yes and no, depending on which Sioux you're talking about. The Sioux are the Dakota, Lakota and Nakota. The Sioux that Ojibwe encountered in Wisconsin and parts of Minnesota were definitely Dakota. However, the Plains Ojibwe would have encountered the Nakota, Dakota after the Uprise, and possibly an occasional Lakota. Nakota is better known by their Ojibwe name — Assiniboine (Asiniibwaan) — or by their English Name — Stoney Sioux — which is a literal translation of their name in Ojibwe.

  CJLippert 09/22/05

[edit] Grand Portage Band = Traverse Bay Band?

Are the Grand Portage Band and the Traverse Bay Band one and the same? david_curry6@yahoo.com

there is the grand traverse band of ottawa and chippewa indians as well as the little traverse bay band of odawa. both are in michigan. the grand portage band of chippewa reside on the north shore of lake superior in minnesota.

  mikinaak

The group of indians had at least some members that lived on reservations and changed traditional songs so that they matched western music. For example, Turkey in the Straw gets an interesting treatment. Sean Griffing

how does this relate to the ojibwe?

  mikinaak

Pardon me for the earlier, confusing message. I've heard a recording of Turkey in the Straw as modified by the Ojibwe. Quite good actually. Sean Griffing

[edit] Need for merge?

Shouldn't this be merged with Chippewa (tribe)? Toiyabe 21:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I think you've got a point. It looks like the text of Chippewa (tribe) should be merged with this article and the page made a redirect to Ojibwa. Sunray 22:01, 2005 May 16 (UTC)
Yup. BanyanTree 22:36, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I've moved the text from the Chippewa (tribe) article over and put it under the heading "Chippewa." It can now be integrated into the Ojibwa article and then the redirect established. Sunray 02:55, 2005 May 17 (UTC)
The redirect is completed. The text that was moved still has to be edited and integrated into the article. Sunray 05:19, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

[edit] Northwestern Ontario

Not "Ontario", but "Northwestern Ontario"; 1,000 miles away from Toronto (which, unfortunately, is the only city most Americans know of in Canada; not their fault). Why is there no mention of the various Ojibwe or Ojibwa settlements throughout Northwestern Ontario? I'm referring to the region of Ontario bordering Manitoba and Minnesota, so far away from Toronto that Torontonians don't even consider it part of their province (ask them if they'd take a job transfer up to "NOW" and they shudder in disgust).

Remote, fly-in-only Ojibwe settlements like Attawapiskat and Sandy Lake, as well as very 'urban' reserves like the Fort William First Nation, near Thunder Bay? Given the high level of urbanisation and cultural assimilation of Ojibwa/Chippewa in the US Upper Midwest --- such as in Minnesota or Wisconsin --- I would argue that the Ojibwe of Northwestern Ontario are the most "natural" Ojibwe, the ones who remain closest to their wilderness traditions. But that's just me, lol.

Anyway, just wondering why there is no mention in this Wiki article of the rich Ojibwe heritage of Northwestern Ontario (not to mention the evidence of "Paleo-Indian" civilisations all around the city of Thunder Bay, dating back over 9,000 years). Thank you.

[edit] third or first biggest?

the intro states that the Ojibwa are the largest group of Native Americans north of Mexico, but only the third largest in the US. Seems fishy to me. -lethe talk + 14:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It could be -- the population is divided between the U.S. and Canada, so if you take the population in both countries into consideration, it may be the largest in North America, but the portion in the U.S. might not be the largest within that country. Just speculation though --a atatement like that should have some sort of references to back it up. older ≠ wiser 15:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No word for "goodbye"

This sentence is copied from the end of the "Culture" section:

>>An interesting example of the Ojibwe culture is that there is no word for "Goodbye".

It seems insubstantial added on a whim. From what I know about the Ojibwe language, the word for "hello," "Boozhoo," comes from the name of the "saviour" of the Ojibwe people, Waynaboozhoo, and this greeting, translated as "hello," represents the endless search for his reincarnation in the world. Perhaps something about this could be added to the final paragraph of the "Culture" section to make this sentence not seem so flimsy.

Well, there is a "see you later" greeting in Ojibwe, but there isn't a "farewell" greeting. In reality, there isn't a "Hello" greeting, either. However, like "aloha" in the Hawai'ian language, both "boozhoo" and "aanii(n)" are used as both "hello" and "good bye" though their use as "hello" is much, much more common. The term "aanii(n)" means "what" or "how"... in this case a shortening of the phrase "What is your Doodem (clan)?" so that the addresser would know how to treat the addressed (as family, friend, guest or enemy). The origins of "boozhoo" is highly controversial. Some say that it comes from the French "Bon jour" so "boozhoo" can be used as one would with "good day" in English, which can be both "hello" and "good bye." However, there are just as many people claiming the "Wenabozho" origins for "boozhoo". Unfortunately, inclusion of "boozhoo" example in the article will result in moving away from the NPOV Wikipedia upholds. In my real life job, for official correspondences, I use terms such as "baanimaa" (later), "niin sa" (yours) or "miigwech" (thank you) as my closings. CJLippert 18:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
In my real life job, for other official correspondences, I use additional terms such as "mii sa go i'iw" (that is all)... which often I just shorten to "i'iw" or "i'iw sa", depending on if I want an emphasis or not, "haaw" for strong assertion, or "gegapii sa" as something a bit more stronger than "baanimaa". So, there isn't really a "good bye" but there are plenty of other terms that can be used in its place. CJLippert 05:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The above examples cited are only partially correct. All of the words mentioned have more of a spiritual connection rather then a secular one, example baamaapii kgaa waabimin is closer to saying "i will see your spirit again". miigwiich would be closer to say "thats enough" in reference to recieving too many items (whether physical or other) Due to certain biases and conceptions many of the words spoken have been referred to using non-Native concepts in an attempt to relate the concepts back into another type of mentality, often this results in a dilution and/or misunderstanding of the true nature of meanings behind the language. --RedMan11 01:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ojibwa has origin in Ice-Age Europe?

Genetical evidences seem to support the statement that the ojibwa people originates not from the northwest (ultimately Northern Asia) like other native american people, but rather from western Europe. See the following article http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/010129/archive_006258_3.htm (last paragraph on the page). Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 16:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

ojibwa were one of the first founders of north america they were in tribes of atleast 200 people. In each tribe there were the kids, parents, grand parents and cusins aunts and uncles. 70.51.52.12 16:04, 8 April 2006
I would be suspect of the article. Granted in the Ojibwe oral history, the Anishinaabeg claim they have always been on this continent (which I think is the point 70.51.52.12 was trying to make), both linguistics and their oral history claims their origins being from the Eastern Algonquian people, and ultimately the Delaware Nation. If the Ojibwe had this genetic marker, I would expect so would all other Anishinaabeg as well as with all of the Eastern Algonquians and with the Delaware Nation. CJLippert 18:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion reference

My experience with this band is that most would identify as either Roman Catholic or Methodist, not consistent with the articles reference for ancient beliefs, medicine wheels etc. Not sure if my anecdotal reference is correct, but can someone show some documentation either way? 66.72.215.225 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I was taking a look at the article today and there do seem to be an increase in the Midewiwin assertions into this article since the last I looked. Inclusion of Midewiwin is important since, at least at the Mille Lacs Reservation, Midewiwin practitioners are nearly half of the population, Roman Catholics are also nearly half of the population, and the Protestants are in the very small minority. From what I have been told, Red Lake Reservation have a similar profile. White Earth Reservation, from what I have been told, nearly half are Protestants, with the remaining half being approximate equal in number in Midewiwin and Roman Catholic. Since the 1970's, Fond du Lac Reservation, Grand Portage Reservation and Leech Lake Reservation are about a third each. You have to keep one thing in mind, at least within the United States, from about 1880's until 1978, it was illegal in the US for Indians to declair themselves as non-Christian, because there was a policy to "Civilize the Savages to be good, productive Christians." Those who were Midewiwin practitioners were either murdered or were carted off to mental assylums. In 1978, with the passing of the American Indian Religious Freedom Act, all traditional indigenous faith systems, including Midewiwin, again breathed religeous freedom. Densmore and Hilger recorded Midewiwin practices, as did Fred Blessing, Jr., during the persicutory period. More recently, Eddie Benton Benai wrote "The Mishomis Book" that documents more of the Midewiwin practices. In Canada, due to the isolation policy that better help retain the Ojibwe language in those communities, though there are significant number of Roman Catholic, Anglican and Wesleyan practioners in the Ojibwe communities, there is a strong and growing minority of Midewiwin asserting themselves in those communities. The Midewiwin assertions in the article might be a reflection of the assertions in these communities in Canada. CJLippert 17:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military history

Perhaps the Battle of Mole Lake should be referenced here somewhere. I'm only posting this because of the notice at the top of that article– I trust that persons more knowledgable about the topic than myself will be able to integrate this (or not if it's too minor). Thanks.--Pharos 03:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey of Anishinaabe-related articles

User:Leo1410 have begun a survey of all thing associated with the Anishinaabe peoples. Please visit (and possibly add, edit) to User:Leo1410/Anishinaabe, or from there create a new article. Miigwech CJLippert 05:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ojibwa vs. Ojibwe

I reverted an edit by User:Puccini999 that changed all spellings of Ojibwa to Ojibwe. Since everything on wiki is based around the Ojibwa spelling, I figured it was too much of a hassle to change everything. However, I do prefer the "Ojibwe" spelling as it is the spelling in the double-vowel alphabet and is more likely to be pronounced correctly in English than Ojibwa is. If someone is passionate enough about changing it, I support it, but make sure to clean up after yourself. Leo1410 04:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the name

I'm puzzled about two things:

  1. As far as I know there is little, if any, historical evidence supporting the theory that the word "ojibwa" has something to do with the Midewiwin record keeping tradition, which probably is not a very old one (not even mentioned by William W. Warren). This theory in my humble opinion looks more like some kind of a linguist's wishful thinking.
  2. The explanation given by William Whipple Warren already in the 1850s is not even mentioned in the article. According to Warren the "cooking theory" is correct, however he pointed out the possibility it was enemies, not moccasins, who were roasted. Napikwan 09:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
There are several differing opinions about the name's origins. In full here they are:
  1. "cook until it puckers" in reference to moccasin seams is what elders often cite and found in 18th C. liturature. Since the roasting of enemies is considered inflammatory, since about the 1980s, this is the explanation most often encountered.
  2. "cook until it puckers" in reference to enemy torture found in 19th C. liturature, which Warren mentions.
  3. "scribes"/"recorders [of a vision]" is Abenaki and Mi'kmaq, but also cited by Louise Erdrich. I have also come across this description in other places as well, but I can't think of where at the moment.
  4. "Prime-Stag Clan" from the Algonquins, at least in some French references, but the problem here is that I have not come across the actual Anishinaabe word that sounds like "Ojibwe" meaning "Prime-Stag." Personally, I think this is a misinterpretation of "Anishinaabe" and not "Ojibwe," since the word for "buck" or "stag" is ayaabe.
The name is recorded variously as:
  • Achipoés — Prise de Possession (1671) in Perrot, Mém., 293,1864.
  • Achipoué — Neill in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., V, 398, 1885
  • Anchipawah — Boudinot, Star in the West, 126, 1816.
  • Chebois — Gass, Jour., 47, note, 1807.
  • Chepawas — Croghan (1759) quoted by Kauffman, West. Penn., 132, app., 1851.
  • Chepeways — Croghan (1760) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th s., IX, 287,1871.
  • Chepowas — Croghan (1759) quoted by Proud, Penn., II, 296, 1798.
  • Cheppewes — Shirley (1755) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VI, 1027,1855.
  • Chiappawaws — Loudon, Coll. Int. Nar., I, 34, 1808.
  • Chibois — Bouquet (1760) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th s., IX, 295, 1871.
  • Chipawawas — Goldthwait (1766) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st s., X, 122, 1809.
  • Chipaways — Croghan (1760), ibid., 4th s., IX, 250,1871.
  • Chipaweighs — German Flats conf. (1770) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VIII, 229, 1857.
  • Chipewas — Lattré, map U.S., 1784.
  • Chipéways — Carver(1766) Trav., 19, 1778.
  • Chipeweghs — Johnson (1763) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 526, 1856.
  • Chipeweighs — Johnson (1763), ibid., 583, 1856.
  • Chipiwa — Treaty of 1820, U. S. Ind. Treat., 369,1873.
  • Chipoës — Prise de Possession (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., IX, 803, 1855.
  • Chippawas — Croghan (1759) quoted by Jefferson, Notes, 143, 1825.
  • Chipawees — Writer of 1756 Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll. 1st S.,VII, 123, 1801.
  • Chippeouays — Toussaint, map of Am., 1839.
  • Chippewaes — Johnson (1763) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 525, 1856.
  • Chippewais — Perrot (ca. 1721) in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll. II, pt. 2, 24, 1864.
  • Chippewas — Washington (1754) quoted by Kauffman, West. Penn., 67, 1851.
  • Chippewaus — Edwards (1788) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st S., IX, 92, 1804.
  • Chippeways — Chauvignerie (1736) quoted by Schoolcraft, Ind. Tribes, III, 556, 1858.
  • Chippeweighs — Johnson (1767) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 969, 1856.
  • Chippewyse — Ft Johnson conf. (1755), ibid., VI, 975, 1855.
  • Chippoways — Washington (1754) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st S., VI, 140, 1800.
  • Chippuwas — Heckewelder quoted by Barton, New Views, app. 1, 1798.
  • Chipwaes — Croghan (1765) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 782, 1856.
  • Chipwas — Bouquet (1760) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th S., IX, 321, 1871.
  • Chipways — Croghan (1765), op. cit.
  • Cypoways — Beltrami quoted by Neill, Minn., 350, 1858.
  • Dshipowē-hága — Gatschet, Caughnawaga MS., B. A. E., 1882 (Caughnawaga name).
  • Etchipoës — Prise de possession (1671), ibid., IX, 808, 1855.
  • Gibbaways — Imlay, West Ter., 363, 1797.
  • Jibewas — Smith (1799) quoted by Drake, Trag. Wild., 213, 1841.
  • Objibways — Kingsley, Stand. Nat. Hist., pt. 6, 143, 1883.
  • O¹che¹pe²wa¹g — Long, Exped. St. Peter's R., II, 151, 1824.
  • Ochipawa — Umfreville (1790) in Me. Hist. Soc. Coll., VI, 270, 1859.
  • Ochipewa — Richardson, Arct. Exped., 71, 1851.
  • Ochipoy — York (1700) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., IV, 749,1854.
  • Ochippewais — Foster in Sen. Misc. Doc. 39, 42d Cong., 3d sess., 6, 1873.
  • Odchipewa — Hutchins (1770) quoted by Richardson, Arct. Exped., II, 38, 1851.
  • Odgjiboweke — Perrot. Mém. 193, 1864.
  • Odjibewais — Ibid.
  • Od-jib-wäg — Schoolcraft quoted in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., V, 35, 1885.
  • Odjibwas — Schoolcraft, Ind. Tribes, I, 307, 1851.
  • Odjibwe — Kelton, Ft Mackinac, 153, 1884.
  • Odjibwek — Belcourt (1850?) in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., I, 227, 1872.
  • Ogibois — M'Lean Hudson Bay, II, 323, 1849.
  • O-je-bway — Jones, Ojebway Inds., 164, 1861.
  • Ojeebois — Henry, MS. vocab. (Bell copy, B. A. E.), 1812.
  • Ojibaway — Lewis and Clark, Trav.. 53, 1806.
  • Ojibbewaig — Tanner, Narr., 315, 1830 (Ottawa name).
  • Ojibbeways — Ibid., 36.
  • Ojibboai — Hoffman, Winter in the Far West, II, 15, 1821.
  • Ojibeways — Perkins and Peck, Annals of the West, 1850.
  • Ojibois — Gunn in Smithson. Rep., 400, 1868.
  • Ojibua — Maximilian, Trav., 135, note, 1843.
  • O-jib-wage — Morgan, Consang. and Affin., 287, 1871.
  • Ojibwaig — Hale, Ethnog. and Philol. Mo. Val., 224, 1846.
  • Ojibwas — Ind. Aff. Rep., 454, 1838.
  • O-jib-wa-uk — Morgan, Consang. and Affin., 287, 1871.
  • Ojibways — Am. Pioneer, II, 190, 1843.
  • Ojibway-ugs — Foster in Sen. Misc. Doc. 39, 42d Cong., 3d sess., 6, 1873.
  • Ojibwe — Burton, City of the Saints, 117, 1861.
  • Oshibwek — Belcourt (1850?) in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., I, 227, 1872.
  • Otchepóse — Proces verbal (1682) in French, Hist. Coll. La., II, 19, 1875.
  • Otchipoeses — La Salle (1682) in Margry, Déc., II, 187, 1877.
  • Otchipois — La Salle (1682) in French, Hist. Coll. La., I, 46, 1846.
  • Otchipoises — Hildreth, Pioneer Hist., 9, 1848.
  • Otchipwe — Baraga, Otchipwe Gram., title, 1878.
  • Otjibwek — Perrot, Mém., 193, 1864.
  • Ottapoas — Buchanan, N. Am. Inds., 156, 1824.
  • Oucahipues — La Hontan (1703), New Voy., II, 87, 1735.
  • Ouchibois — Writer of 1761 in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th s., IX, 428, 1871.
  • Ouchipawah — Pike (1806) quoted by Schoolcraft, Ind.Tribes, III, 563, 1853.
  • Ouchipöe — La Chesnaye (1697) in Margry, Déc., VI, 6, 1886.
  • Ouchipoves — Coxe, Carolana, map, 1741.
  • Outachepas — McKenney and Hall, Ind. Tribes, III, 79, 1854.
  • Outchibouec — Jes. Re1. 1667, 24, 1858.
  • Outchibous — Ibid., 1670, 79, 1858.
  • Outchipoue — Gallinèe (1669) in Margry, Déc. I, 163, 1875.
  • Outchipwais — Bell in Can. Med. and Surg. Jour., Mar. and Apr., 1886.
  • Outehipoues — La Hontan, New Voy., I, 230, 1703.
  • Schipuwe — Heckewelder quoted by Barton, New Views, app., 1, 1798 (German form).
  • Shepawees — Lindesay (1749) in N. Y. Doc. Co1. Hist., VI, 538, 1855.
  • Shepewas — Bradstreet (ca. 1765), ibid., VII, 694, 1856.
  • Shepuway — Heckewelder quoted by Barton, New Views, app., 1, 1798.
  • Tcipu — Dorsey, Kansas MS. vocab., B.A.E.,1882 (Kansa name).
  • Tschipeway — Wrangell, Ethnol. Nachr., 100, 1839.
  • Tschippiweer — Walch, map, 1805 (German form).
  • Tsipu — Dorsey, Osage MS. vocab., B. A. E., 1883 (Osage name).
  • Uchipweys — Dalton (1783) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st s., X, 123, 1809.
and this does not even include the Anishinaabe(g), Inini(wag), Saulteurs, Ihohahanton(wan) and Dwakanen variations. If you do a vocabulary examination in liturature, the word that comes up frequently for method of enemy torture is not roasting of one's enemies, but rather the British-initiated scalping of one's enemies. Even in the Council of Three Fires language, Ojibwe the "Elder Brother" is considered "Keepers of the Faith," which this is done through the Birch bark scrolls. Even Warren says, "In the Me-da-we rite is incorporated most that is ancient amongst them — songs and traditions that have descended not orally, but in hieroglyphs, for at least a long time of generations. In this rite is also perpetuated the purest and most ancient idioms of their language, which differs somewhat from that of the common every day use." Since Midewiwin originated in the Atlantic coast, though Midewiwin is now considered an Anishinaabe faith-system, in reality it is a "Waabanakiing" faith system and its teaching, Anishinaabe or Abenaki or Mi'kmaq, are all valid and its explanations are equally valid. Though the Ojibwe themselves could only guess what the word "Ojibwe" means, in the Waabanakiing, people in the Mide rites will outright tell you it means "Scribes". I know this doesn't answer your question, but this is a start. As we peel away the layers of stories and add in journal articles, book articles, etc., all these will be incorporated. CJLippert 19:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC) (edited a bit CJLippert).
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