Talk:Oji-Cree

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[edit] Is this article really about the Oji-Cree, or about the Treaty 5 and Treaty 9 Council?

Is this article really about the Oji-Cree, or about the Treaty 5 and Treaty 9 Council for the signatory Cree, Ojibwa and Oji-Cree? Looking around I found the website for the Nishnawbe Aski Nation (ᐊᓂᐦᔑᓈᐯ ᐊᔅᑭ ᐃᔥᑯᓂᑲᓇᓐ ᐅᑭᒫᐎᓐ (Anishinaabe-aski Ishkoniganan Ogimaawin, unpointed: ᐊᓂᔑᓇᐯ ᐊᔅᑭ ᐃᔥᑯᓂᐊᓇᓐ ᐅᑭᒪᐎᓐ), but this is the name for the former Grand Council Treaty 9. Their "About" page says:

Originally founded as Grand Council Treaty 9 in 1973, Nishnawbe Aski Nation (1981) is a political organization representing 49 First Nation communities across the territory of James Bay Treaty 9 and Treaty 5 - an area spanning two-thirds of Ontario.
NAN represents the legitimate socioeconomic and political aspirations of its First Nation members to all levels of government to allow local self-determination while establishing spiritual, cultural, and economic independence.
NAN territory spans west to the Manitoba border, east to the Quebec border and north of the 51st parallel to the coasts of James and Hudson’s Bays. The population of NAN territory is approximately 45,000, covering an area of approximately 200,000 square miles. The languages within NAN include Ojibway, Ojicree and Cree.

Thoughts? Ideas? CJLippert 23:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Funny you bring this up because the main reason I haven't contributed much lately is that I just moved to an Oji-Cree speaking reserve on the Treaty 9-Treaty 5 border. I think your concern is valid because NAN and Oji-Cree are not exactly the same thing. Most of the members of NAN are Oji-Cree speakers, but Lac Seul is Ojibwe-speaking and the communities by James Bay are Cree-speaking. Likewise, there are Oji-Cree speakers outside of NAN. Of course, that is all going by language, and if that were the case, we could just look at Rand Valentine's dissertation. Ethnicity is more a matter of self-perception and self-indentification, and since I've been here, I've heard people refer to themselves as "Anishinabe," "Cree," and "Oji-Cree." Some of those who work in language will say that the language here is "Ojibway," but I have not heard anyone call him or herself "Ojibway" or "Severn Ojibway." Ojibway is a term used to refer to those to the south. I know the term "Anishinini" is used by Big Trout Lake and Kingfisher Lake, but I haven't heard it here yet. This is all original research, of course, but my point is that ethnicity is really complicated around these parts. My guess is that there won't be much discussion of whether a larger Oji-Cree nation exists as distinct from Cree and Ojibwe, until a majority of people within that group self-identify as Oji-Cree or something similar. Treaty boundaries, while somewhat arbitrary, are something concrete to latch onto. In short, Oji-Cree shouldn't redirect to NAN, but I sure wouldn't want to be the person who decides what it does redirect to. Assigning ethnicities is too messy a business. Leo1410 18:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

PS. User:Bearcat has recently created a category for Oji-Cree. Maybe he'd be up for the task.

For the time being, I've moved the article to Oji-Cree. There is definitely an ongoing problem with the way First Nations topics are written and organized on Wikipedia right now, that will require a concerted cleanup project. In the meantime, while you're right that assigning ethnic terms can definitely be a complicated business, Wikipedia generally needs to keep things as relatively neutral as possible. It would certainly be appropriate for this article to address the complexities of First Nations identity, but as far as I know Oji-Cree would have to be regarded as the least problematic title right now — it certainly wouldn't be neutral, for instance, for Wikipedia to just classify them as a subgroup of the Ojibwe or the Cree, or to title this with "Severn Ojibwe". Anishinini might be an appropriate title as well, but we should probably discuss that as it's far from being the best known term for this group.

Going forward, we probably should have a discussion about how best to improve the article and its related topics. The article is meant to be about the Oji-Cree as a whole, but if it's too specific to a particular subgroup of them and is missing important stuff, then it can certainly be cleaned up by someone with sufficient knowledge. Bearcat 02:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)