From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Oghuz languages article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Languages, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative, and easy-to-use resource about languages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.	language Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	To-do list for Oghuz languages:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in Europe or Asia may be able to help!

Contents 1 Comments 1.1 so-called "Turcoman" 1.2 Also... 1.3 map

[edit] Comments

[edit] so-called "Turcoman"

First off, great work on the page. The only thing I don't get is the part where it says, "the languages of the so-called "Turcoman" of Iran and Iraq". There's an article called Iraqi Turkmen, and a section of it called "Language". As for Iran, according to this map by the CIA, it has "Turkoman/Turkmen" at the key, and the only part of the map I can find them is near the border with Turkmenistan, which would in fact make them Turkmen people, not "so-called Turcomans". Anyways, I'm glad to see this article finally created. —Khoikhoi 02:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, certainly there are Turkoman origined people in Iran, I think "so-called" is superfluous for the text. The best thing would be to remove the word from the article. The only setback is that the link goes to the Turkmen people of Turkmenistan, which is not appropriate. So, I will unlink the word and try to find a better link for them.

Kizzuwatna 02:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, my point is that the Iraqi Turkoman are considered different, but aren't the Turkmen in Iran the same as the Turkmen of Turkmenistan? —Khoikhoi 02:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, I just read from the Iraqi Turkmen article that many live in Iran, hence their name is (somewhat) misleading. —Khoikhoi 02:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Believe me, this is very complicated since all those people originated from the same people called the Turkomans, including Turkey and Azerbaijan. That section seemed a bit ambiguous to me. But I'm so tired for the moment that I won't be able to continue. Let's keep the link you gave to Iraqi Turkmens. Tomorrow I will try to search in detail.

Kizzuwatna 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Also...

Does anyone think Oghuz should become a disabmig. page now? Or are the Oghuz Turks the more common meaning than the language group? —Khoikhoi 02:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The term "Oghuz Turks" gives the impression of historical ancestors of today's western Turks since there is no people called Oghuz in our times. But Oghuz languages is a linguistic category of modern day Turks, Azeris, Turkmens etc. as well as the extinct Oghuz language. So, I think there's a nuance between them.

Kizzuwatna 02:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for a disambiguation page, especially since the page on the "Oghuz Turks" is poorly written and appears to be POV. Straughn 14:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

And...the disambiguation page is done. See Oghuz. Straughn 14:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] map

excellent work to whoever made the map. this is one of the clearest maps I have seen on wikipedia, and the the use of normal text for the legend is a good idea as well, since many articles' maps expect you to click a few times to get the largest version. congrats Dan Carkner 16:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, not at all. That map is pure WP:OR.. Turkish is spoken in southeastern Turkey contrary to what the map suggests.. Kurdish is spoken, yes, but Turkish is also spoken. In fact, most Kurds speak Turkish as a first language because of assimilation. That map was made from a map indicating regions where Kurdish was spoken - not Turkish. Most Kurds are bilingual with Turkish being the more dominant language. It commited OR when it deduced from the Kurdish-spoken regions map that Turkish was not spoken. That is a false a contrario argument and very dangerous unacademic original research. All such maps will be removed from relevant articles, I had mentioned this in many articles for months but nothing seems to happen really. I am not removing them since I don't want to deprive the articles of maps, but if it goes likes this I will just go ahead and do it anyways. Hopefully someone will correct the maps... Baristarim 01:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused, Baristarim. You removed the map from Khalaj language for precisely the opposite reason - because the map did not indicate that Persian is spoken in and around the same areas where Khalaj is spoken. Moreover, I don't understand how the map is OR. As far as I can tell, the distribution of languages on the map is based on information from the Ethnologue and other sources. Are you suggesting that the information on the map was completely made up? Straughn 17:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I am also confused, which map are you talking about? And yes, nowhere in the world such mishmash of information is included in a map: Turkish is the official language, and even most of the Kurdish (from TR) users here on wiki will tell you that they speak Turkish much more fluently than Kurdish - I don't want to get into a dispute over why, but that's just the way it is. Making as if Turkish is not spoken in a huge swath of Turkey is OR at its peak. Did you read my post carefully? I said "the fact that Kurdish is spoken in those areas does not exclude the fact that Turkish is spoken". Where in the Ethnologue is it written that Turkish is not spoken in SE Turkey? It says Kurdish is spoken in the SE, it doesn't say that Turkish is not spoken - that is a false a contrario argument. And yes, the info in that map, the way in which it was prepared is made up - find me one source that says Turkish is not spoken in SE Turkey. The main newspaper of the PKK, the main armed Kurdish organization, is published in "Turkish" in Europe - what more of a proof do you expect to see that Turkish is spoken in SE Turkey? This is ridicilous really: generally, barring exceptional evidence to the contrary, a language is presumed to be spoken in a place if it is the official language. I also would have absolutely no problem with a map of Persian that covers all of Iran - X being spoken doesn't exclude the fact that Y is spoken. It would be like pretending that French is not spoken in Corsica because Corsicans have a different native language. Yes, they do, but French is still the primary language. Baristarim 02:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Hardly anyone speaks Turkish in Rasht or Mazandaran. The map is clearly an exaggeration and needs to changed. --alidoostzadeh 02:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That I don't know, I frankly don't even know where those places are! If you say so, then the map can be corrected. Baristarim 02:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Basically the areas around Caspian. See this map for Iran [1] and also this [2] and this [3]. Check the areas of Caspian. --alidoostzadeh 05:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)