Talk:Odinist Fellowship

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Contents 1 Odinist Fellowship Stub 2 Charity Status 3 Use of OF name by UK group 4 Vandalism by leader of UK OF group 5 Why the slanders? 6 UK OF Mailing List 7 "vandalism" 8 Help Save Articles

[edit] Odinist Fellowship Stub

The Odinist Fellowship stub is complete nonsense.

The organisation known as the Odinic Rite is still very much in existence.

The UK Odinist Fellowship is in no way connected to that of Else Christensen. It was founded by people who were expelled from the Odinic Rite and and then failed to set up a rival OR group. They asked Else Christensen for permission to use the name Odinist Fellowship and she flatly refused. Surely if they had been in any way connected it would have been they who took responsibility for Else Christensen's funerary arrangements and memorial. In fact this task was carried out by the Odinic Rite and at Else's request were also given responsibility for dealing with all of her affairs and her library.12

It was also the Odinic Rite which was the first polytheistic pagan organisation in the UK to be granted charity status and it is highly likely that the charity number granted to the OR is still being used by the bogus Odinist fellowship.

I would also dispute the claim that the Odinist Fellowship are the largest Odinist group in the UK. On what is this assertion based? Hengest

WeniWidiWiki Thank you for your message and comments. Regarding the links you posted, the Kindred Folk one is legitimately using the Odinist Fellowship name and was founded by prisoners with whom Else had worked. The Odinism in West Yorkshireone is obviously referring the the UK group which uses the name.

I am unable to find anything else of value about the UK group other than the link you already mentioned and their single web page . I think it is clear from this that the claim of being the largest UK Odinist group is unfounded, especially when compared to the information available about the Odinic Rite which the original contributor claimed had become the UK Odinist Fellowship.

I will get what information I can regarding the current staus of the official OF. I do know that on her retirement from activities Else Christensen asked Heimgest of the OR to take care of her affairs and that OF members were to make their own decisions as to what path they then took Details Here. Else's constant companion and right hand man, Vidarsword, became an OR member as did some others. More info asap. Hengest

[edit] Charity Status

I am posting this link to show that the OF's registered charity number was formerly that of the OR, Charity Commission When Ralph Harrison (also known as Ingvar) was expelled from the OR he transferred the number to the OF. An anonymous user is trying to delete this fact. Hengest

sheesh, so much for "Truth" and "Fidelity", or did they ditch those Virtues in the transition? dab (ᛏ) 21:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of OF name by UK group

I have stated in the article that the UK group sought permission from Else Christenssen to use the OF name and that permission was denied. This is based upon information provided by two close friends of Else, Heimgest of the Odinic Rite and Vidarsword, Else's close companion until her death.Hengest

Hengest, unless these people publicized this information somewhere, it is still hearsay. It is one thing to straighten distorted facts on Wikipedia, but another to insert information based on private, perhaps confidential, communication: and there is also Wikipedia:Verifiability. dab (ᛏ) 21:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, will reword that. --Hengest 17:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism by leader of UK OF group

Can those monitoring this entry please be vigilant against the attempts at vandalism by Ralph Harrison, leader of the UK Odinist Fellowship. It seems he wants to brush away the past and any mention of Else Christianssen's original OF. --Hengest 17:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Will try best FK0071a 16:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the slanders?

By Odin, will someone purge the hearsay and nastiness from this article?

I have been on the Odinic Rite and Odinist Fellowship mailing lists for years. I also received the American Odinist Fellowship material when it was still being published.

For the record, the Odinist Fellowship newsletter is called "Round Robin." The postal address is B.M. Edda, London, WC1N 3XX. UK.

The British Odinist Fellowship group discusses interesting Odinist matters in an informed matter. I have known them to make any negative comments about the Odinic Rite or its membership.

I met Ralph Harrison on one occasion--about 12 years ago--when I was in London (I am American). We had a delightful three-hour dinner, and I remembering peppering him with questions about the Odinic Rite split. He avoided negative remarks, and he was always the gentlemen.

John Yeowell was supposed top attend the same dinner. but unfortunately he was ill at the time.

Be that as it may, the following changes must be made to the entry:

1) Remove the ridiculous claim that someone asked Elsie for "permission." Copyright is for Coca Cola and Mickey Mouse. Are Americans pirates because they copied Asatru from the Icelandic pagans? No!

2) Remove all the nonsense about Harrison being "expelled." Technically, Martin Luther was excommunicated by the Catholics, but is that significant?

3. Simply discuss the Odinist Fellowship. References to the Odinic Rite do not belong here. --Tsmollet 23:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

IMO there should be two separate entries if the groups are not affiliated. WeniWidiWiki 23:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The claim that Else Christensen refused permission for Ingvar to set up a UK arm of the OF is not ridiculous but was actually removed earlier, by me, as I agree it is hearsay. It was actually removed some time ago but reverted by FK0071a. Your analogy might as well be comparing apples and oranges. Using the name of a religion and the name of an established organization are hardly comparable

The fact that Ingvar was expelled from the OR is very relevant because it is a part of the history of how the UK OF came into being. You will see that one of the early edits claimed that the OF was formerly known as the Odinic Rite and it is important to show how this came about. The information about the charity number is also important as it was the first one granted to a polytheistic group in the UK and in fact was for some time in use by both the official OR and Ingvar's group. The fact that Martin Luther was excommunicated is insignificant to this discussion but is very significant to his history which is why it rightly appears in his Wiki entry.

Regarding references to the Odinic Rite belonging here, OF claims to have formerly been called Odinic Rite, it uses the charity number issued to the Odinic Rite and its whole existence came about after Yeowell was accepted back into the OR. I am quite happy for others in a more neutral position such as WeniWidiWiki to decide what is of relevance. I only got into editing this article because of the blatant inaccuracies and unfounded claims appearing in early edits.

WeniWidiWiki I am not sure whether a separate entry for the original OF would be of value as the information is pretty much covered in the entry for Else Christiansen. --Hengest 01:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I should clarify my terms. Technically, we should argue there was a schism. For a time, both groups claimed the name "Odinic Rite." Then one of the groups chose a different name.

The issue of who is right or wrong in the hallowed halls of Odinism is unimportant. What we need are two clear and factual articles about 1) the current Odinist Fellowship and 2) the American branch.

As for the copyright statement, I think I was right on that one. No one owns these names.... The Christian group called the Plymouth Brethren in England is not connected to the group called the Plymouth Brethren in America.

But again, who cares? --Tsmollet 02:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Another question. Is Hengest actually Heimgest? If you are Heimgest, you have done a great deal for Odinism, but you would be rather biased in this debate.

If you are Heimgest, do you know you have never answered my mail? --Tsmollet 02:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the entry to be more neutral and to clarify the issue that the UK OF is an offshoot of the OR. Also, apparently there are still a few chapters of the original OF in the US. WeniWidiWiki 02:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Hengest controls the OR internet site - Heimgest is the director of the Court of Gothar of the Odinic Rite, to the best of my knowledge. FK0071a 16:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am an Information Officer for the Odinic Rite. That is why I said I was happy for somebody more neutral to edit what has been posted. --Hengest 12:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

it does appear the whole conflict was presented from the OR perspective (with terms like "unsanctioned faction"). Plus the whole thing is really unsourced, except for the reference to a 1991 'OR Briefing', which will be rather difficult to obtain. Especially the claim that "Ingvar sent out letters to the membership falsely claiming that Heimgeist, the leader of the original OR, had resigned" would need some sort of attribution. It is also perfectly unclear how Harrison is supposed to have managed to get hold of OR's charity number: he seems to have convinced the authorities one way or the other that OF is the bona fide successor of OR. I have no idea whether this is the case or not, but the fact remains that our only official source, the UK charity commission, has "ODINIST FELLOWSHIP; Old Names: THE ODINIC RITE; Charity Correspondent: MR RALPH MICHAEL HARRISON". I am perfectly neutral in this, having no interest in the question one way or the other, and no background knowledge, I am just discussing the state of the article's verifiability at present. dab (ᛏ) 13:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK OF Mailing List

If it is any help to anyone, the OF UK mailing list is to 'B.M. Edda, London WC1N 3XX' (fake Odinist Fellowship) as discussed above about the 'BCM Runic, London, WC1N 3XX' (Real Odinic Rite) box but it might be of interest that the EDDA PO Box is registered to [1] '[a place in] Lincoln, LN5 7SN, GB - who lives there? It might be of interest that this website domain is registered to 'UK Registered Charity, (Charity number: 298688)' FK0071a 16:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

why would the address be of interest? WP:V doesn't mean hunt down the personal details of people who didn't publish them on their own. dab (ᛏ) 17:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "vandalism"

RalphHarrison doesn't make his case very eloquently by silently blanking paragraphs. However, FK0071a (and Hengest), if he would argue that he is simply removing uncited information, his edits couldn't be construed as vandalism, and it would be up to you, per Template talk:Unreferenced, to provide sources for the material you want to keep. I have no reason to doubt the material is factual, but that's still the way we play. dab (ᛏ) 09:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

If the editor is Mr. Harrison, I remind you that he is a new user! That would explain the stealthiness. --Tsmollet 21:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I equate wholesale blanking out of sections as vandalism, regardless of whether the user has a conflict of interest, is new or is trying to be "stealthy". Mr.Harrison, please cease and desist blanking out sections - if you have a valid reason for doing so (as in the UK group is non-extant at this time) then fine - but otherwise you need to explain your edits on this page. Regardless, there is no justification whatsoever for deleting the See Also section. WeniWidiWiki 06:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I pulled the History section, as it is unsourced at this time. Anyone who feels the need to re-add it, please discuss it here so we can reach consensus. WeniWidiWiki 06:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel the need to re-add it as their are many unsourced sections within Wikipedia and they stay as their is a template for 'Unreferenced' (it should be used). I find it helpful in articles. I see this statement and think, right, I'll help try and source it. Additionally, Mr.Harrison continously blanks sections after users have repeatedly asked him not to and discuss it here. He isn't doing himself many favours. I wasn't sure before but after so many requestes and NO retorts on his part - something of a fishy smell is consuming me - he has no argument. I don't know but this is how it is now looking. Anyway, for the simple factof my first point I say this section should be readded with the 'Unreferenced' reference above it. Also, once added I think it shoul be locked and the talk page only used so clear these matter up? FK0071a 07:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Well it seems to me that such drama and sniping should be left on one another's respective member's lists and not resolved on wikipedia. Looking over the section, all it does is offer he said/she said unverified and unsourced commentary. Even if the issue of OR briefing was available online as a source, it would still be partisan. If the petty soap opera section goes back up, it needs to be sourced. WeniWidiWiki 17:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

yes. playing advocatus Odini, so to speak, Mr. Harrison being, at that, among the living: what he removed was essentially "Harrison lied through his teeth!^{[citation needed]}". This is not proper usage of {{fact}}. See how far you get with "G. W. Bush lied through his teeth!!^{[citation needed]}" on G. W. Bush (that is to say, don't) ;) dab (ᛏ) 18:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help Save Articles

Wiki Pagan, a wikia wiki, is trying to be as comprehensive as possible. I have just saved the Heimgest article from oblivion. Are ther ay others that wikipedia recently dumped? Please mention on my talk page--or--better yet--edit at Wiki Pagan http://pagan.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

http://pagan.wikia.com/wiki/Heimgest

--Mig-17 02:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The Heimgest article was not dumped, it was merged with the Odinic Rite article as it was never going to be more than a stub, considering that most of the info was already in the OR entry. --Hengest 20:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't mind Tsmollet, er, Blackhood, eh Mig-17 - he's got a bit of a persecution complex, but is doing what he thinks is right. - WeniWidiWiki 21:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

(chuckle) -- you may want to check Heathenry which I relentlessly merged into Neopaganism some time ago :) (but note that you have to preserve edit history when you transwiki to another database in order to comply with the GFDL!) dab (𒁳) 21:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)