Wikipedia talk:NPOV dispute

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This is a page for discussing NPOV disputes and use of the NPOV tag in general.

Article-specific NPOV discussions should take place on the article's Talk page only. In other words, please don't post claims of neutrality violation, questions about whether an article is neutral, or ask about how to deal with a specific NPOV dispute here.

  • Please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~). To add a comment, click "Edit this page" above. To start a new section (a new discussion topic), place it at the bottom of the page and add this first: ==A Descriptive Header== . You can click the "+" tab at the top of the page to do that automatically.

Talk page guidelines: Please respect etiquette and assume good faith. Also be nice and remain civil. enekffofiffijokeoeqnwhewgeqywcgewqtw

Contents

[edit] Misc

on the article: The Democratic Party (of the United States)

I am disputing the neutrality of this article because: 1.It makes subtle suggestions through the use of language. (see 2. and 3.)

2.It's implications contraiywdict fact. (Thomas Jefferson's writings will show clearly that his ideas and what he fought for in this country are not represented well in either of the two major political parties of this country, though they both make claims, in one way or another, that their philosophies are concurrent with Jefferson's.)

3. It contradicts itself. While it first states that "The party traces its beginnings to Thomas Jefferson in the early 1790s" which can be interpreted as neutral, in the same sentence, it then blatantly claims as fact that the Democratic Party "is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, political parties in the world." Whether the Democratic Party can trace its roots to Thomas Jefferson's party is disputable and noted in the article itself: "The Democratic Party traces its origins to the Democratic-Republican Party founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1792, although some scholars date the party's beginnings to the late 1820s, when Democratic-Republicans Andrew Jackson and Martin Van Buren built a new party along with ex-Federalists." Furthermore, this is the first statement made under the heading: Beginnings, Jacksonian Democracy, and Manifest Destiny: 1792-1854, an historical section of the article. Indeed, it is the first attempt to trace the roots of the Democratic Party, of any kind, actually done in the article, at all.

4.) The article, in the very least, makes one wonder how much, if any, historical investigation actually went into the writing of this thing. ~ The Wolfstar


Another hate promoting article ----By Iamnotanumber

Some people may be shocked at the fact that there are many versions of history. Because history is not, I repeat is NOT, a Positive science as Physics. Events are not repeatable and everyone telling a story of history has his/her story to tell right from the beginning and that's HOW history is written. With mountains of evidence of the Holocaust, it is simply not possible to claim that it didn't happen. However, the Armenian version of WW1 history has more holes than Swiss cheese and has vastly differing claims even from Armenian historians. Armenians were deported due to their treason against the Ottoman Empire and a number of them died en route due to armed attacks, lack of food and/or sanitation -- this is true. But these conditions were also true for Turkish civilians, many of which died in the hands of Armenian armed bandits. This is WAR and people from boths sides DIE. It is only unfair to report people dying on side and totally erasing out the victims from the other side.

There was never the intent of an Armenian genocide from any government officer of the Ottoman Empire. On the contrary, 600 officers (many of whom later turned out to be innocent) had been taken to court and sentenced to death on the grounds that they failed to perform their duties and caused the deaths of these people. I don't think there's anyone who can find a single SS officer executed by the Nazi for causing the death of a Jewish person. And the Jewish people, many of whom fought for Germany in WW1, never ever betrayed their homeland. So, this begs the question: "Where is the similarity?". Simply put, there is NONE.

Another note here is that the Jewish people who were deported from Spain found their home in the Ottoman Empire as they were specially invited by the Sultan when nobody wanted them. Their grand grand children still live in the Turkish Republic without any discrimination.

A good article---By George(yeah, RIGHT!!!!)

St. Catherine of Alexandria did exist. the article is biased. --- I'm shocked at the fact that this article is disputed! How can anyone argue against history? How come the holocaust article is not disputed? How come people can feel sympathy to the Jews but not the Chinese? Fact is a fact people and there is no use arguing about it. It doesn't matter if the death toll is 30,000 or 100,000. It is still a horrible atrocity. The death toll for Jews in concentration camps varies too, but I don't see anyone arguing about it. Today, anyone who says nice things about Nazies is considered either a neo-Nazi or KKK, but whoever denies the Nanking Massacre can actually get away with it! Where is justice? I dare anyone say that the Americans never dropped the two atomic bombs in Japan. Since when did the Japanese government become such cowards? What is done is done, admit it. Where is the samuari code that they valued? I'm pretty sure denial is not part their code of honour. How would their ancestors see them now? Shame on anyone who denies history!

I changed nothing uncontroversial. Haha. ........................................................................ No, I mean, I changed nothing uncontroversial to nothing controversial which I think is what is meant, but if that just proves that I didn't get my head round the subject properly, then I'm sorry. If nothing uncontroversial is really what was meant then maybe a reword avoiding the near-double negative might be a good thing?? Nevilley 18:16 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

People may be wondering why I've added NPOV dispute headers to a bunch of articles. These are basically taken from wikipedia:pages needing attention - I've provided varying levels of peer review in doing this.

I've deliberately not provided any peer review to the many articles originally created by "24", except to check whether it's been substantially revised since being listed. The people who originally created the list (user:The Anome and user:Maveric149) no doubt had their reasons. Martin

Could someone that knows something about quantum mechanics or such take a look at the contributions of User:Stupidmoron? I don't know anything about this subject, but the first change this user made had the comment "some vandalism." As far as I can tell, the information is on valid subjects, but I can't tell if the information is valid. MB 14:00 20 May 2003 (UTC)

User:Stupidmoron does not seem to be a vandal (though hir name sounds a bit odd for a serious contributor), more peer-review is needed by physics experts to validate the additions 100%. (as in any addition) -- Rotem Dan 14:59 20 May 2003 (UTC)

What are the NPOV disputes regarding Tunney and True? --Daniel C. Boyer

This page uses a reverse list. This avoids the problems suffered by wikipedia:pages needing attention, where people add a page, don't sign it, don't date it, don't give a reason, and then bugger off. I've removed the forward links - if they're still NPOV disputed (which I have no way of easily telling) then add an NPOV dispute header. It's not rocket science. Martin 00:53 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Cryptic NPOV Disputes

Recently I've come across a couple of pages which link to Wikipedia:NPOV dispute, but which don't have any discussion of what the disputed points are; the most recent one is Six-Day War. An anonymous user simple added the NPOV dispute statement without editing the article in any other way or leaving any note on the talk page. How are we supposed to NPOV a page if the party who disagrees doesn't give any indication as to what the problem is? I think that there should be a note on Wikipedia:NPOV dispute which tells people who add a link to that page that they need to also add a note concerning the article's NPOV problems on the talk page if it's not already obvious from the talk page (I guess I can add that). Second, what can be done about the article itself? If no one explains the article's NPOV problems (I added a note on the talk page), can we just delete the note about the NPOV dispute? -- AdamRaizen 02:16, 2003 Aug 10 (UTC)

IMHO that's really not what NPOV dispute labels are for. They indicate that a discussion is ongoing, and hence that the article contents is disputed and volatile. I don't think you should even bother challenging it and waiting for a response -- if the person who added the warning didn't explain why, after a reasonable amount of time, just remove it. You should probably check the talk page history to make sure it hasn't been maliciously blanked. -- Tim Starling
You might also want to skim-read the page to see if there's anything obviously biased that should be fixed. Martin 10:11, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)


I am requesting an independent review of the following article Millosh Gjergj Nikolla. I wrote the original version, and I believe that someone is slanting it towards a Serb nationalistic POV. I am Albanian and therefore my views may not be objective enough. I don't want to keep reverting the article and/or go into an edit war. If this is the wrong place to post this, then let me know the correct place. Thanks Dori 13:25, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The same person may also be doing this to the following article History of Albania Dori 13:33, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Could someone look at the Hizballah article .... 68.120.204.56 just reverted it ... and I had a edit war with 68.120.205.56 [till it was shut down (protected) ... something I won't do again ... i just did alot of work on it (mainly consolidation) ... and I thought I was being pretty fair in my edits (i even tried to incoprporate the new items the anon was giving) ... I'll let you ppl decide]. The anon user is taking out pertient information on the subject. reddi 04:38, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC) PS. Please reveiw the history file on the Hizballah history to see the comments of the anon user ...

[edit] How is a page de-NPOV'd?

moved from the Wikipedia:Village pump

I did some work on a page that I would hope is more neutral than it was, but it is still on the NPOV list: fluoride. Since I know one can't simply delete the NPOV disclaimer at the top by rule, and I don't know of a page that says 'Check this page because work was done on it', how is said designation retired from a page that (I hope) doesn't need it anymore? Thanks... Skybunny 01:38, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any official policy, so I imagine everyone has their own opinion. My personal policy is that you don't delete the other side's warning. Say if the article was too anti-fluoride so the pro-fluoride people put a warning on. Then if you changed the tone so that it was more pro-fluoride, under my policy you'd be allowed, as a member of the pro-fluoride camp, to delete the warning. Then if the anti-fluoride camp felt you made the article too pro-fluoride, they could put their own NPOV warning, which you wouldn't be allowed to delete. If one camp disappears, and are thus unavailable to remove their own warning, it would lapse after a while. -- Tim Starling 01:50, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
If you genuinely feel it is NPOV then I would say remove the notice but mention it on the talk page. That way if anyone is interested they can re-add it if they don't agree. Angela (who can't write anything in the edit summary box and is too tired to make a proper bug report). Angela 02:10, Sep 26, 2003 (UTC)
Will do. I removed the notice before Marshman saw the page, but I'll point this out in talk. Thanks! Skybunny 02:19, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Looks to my like it is approaching the "poster child" of accomodation. I did not see any NPOV or POV warnings? Both sides have opportunities to submit data from valid studies and the article nicely dances around coming to a single conclusion, as it should. Skybunny and other should continue to watch these page to root out truely POV (opinion) stuff. - Marshman 02:13, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki is not a reliable source for information

This artical appears to very inaccurate. I have never understood the term "white" to include Middle Easterners. I am "forty five" years of age, and never once have I heard the term "white" applyed to middle eastern men. To claim they are white, and then post this nonsense in an online encyclopedia is absolutley absured. (evidentally, anybody is free to say what they like here?)

Who is writing these articles; please don't tell me that "Marshman or Skybunny" is telling me what to think?


(So, I am expected to believe that "Osama Bin Laden" is white?)

[edit] Ending a neutrality dispute

Newbie question, but what's the best way to go about determining whether there is enough consensus to end a neutrality dispute?

I'm thinking in particular of Argument from Ignorance, where the dispute was over the examples used. I think that I've put things into a state which deals with the objections raised in the talk page.

Should I be posting directly to the user talk pages of everyone involved, or is it sufficient just to leave a comment on the talk page for the article and remove the NPOV marker if nobody has objected after a few days? Or is there some kind of defined process for this that I've missed?

-- Onebyone 20:13, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be general guidelines for this situation. I think a reasonable thing to do would be to remove the notice and leave a note on the Talk page saying something along the lines of, "If anyone disagrees, put the notice back." This question is also discussed above -- Cyan 21:21, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Regarding the question of referring to a person of Middle Eastern descent as Caucasian (a.k.a. 'white'), I suggest you chek the U.S. Census bureau. EEOC regulation clearly state that peoples of Middle Eastern and North African descent are considered Caucasian.

[edit] Removing NPOV dispute notices

I believe that the current version of the 12th Street Riot article, which is currently linked to the NPOV dispute page seems okay.

How do I go about suggesting that an article currently under NPOV dispute be removed from that list/have the notices removed? I've noted my opinion on the article's talk page with a summary to that effect, so it's in recent changes, and, obviously, here.

Is there a different mechanism for asking people to take a look and comment/vote on removing articles from the NPOV dispute list that I haven't found yet? If there isn't, should there be? I'm thinking of something similar to the brilliant prose candidates page. Thalia/Karen 03:56, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think there is a policy. I would make sure that you really believe the article is in NPOV. Then, what you can do is: first leave a note in the talk page saying that you believe the NPOV notice is no longer needed, wait a while and then remove it. If someone believes otherwise they will come and put it back in. Dori | Talk 18:08, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, Dori. Any thoughts on whether it would be useful to have a page listing candidates for removal from NPOV dispute status? If there were such a thing, would you (or anyone else who's reading this) use it? I'm willing to put one together; I just don't want to do it if no one else thinks it would be worthwhile. Thalia/Karen 21:18, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

Karen, I don't know if it would be useful to have such a page. I am more likely to put an NPOV notice than to remove one. Perhaps you could just list such topics at Wikipedia:List of controversial issues. Dori | Talk 23:15, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

When you believe the neutrality of an article is no longer disputed, remove the dispute notice. See also wikipedia talk:NPOV dispute, IIRC. Martin 23:52, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Martin, thanks for the link; it was helpful. What you said certainly makes sense. But I wasn't involved in the dispute, so I wasn't sure. I know when I think something's neutral, but not when others do. I thought perhaps a single page listing similar articles might provide a) a consensus-building route out of NPOV disputes/editing wars and b) an easy way to speed cleanup of pages that were worked on after disputes, and then forgotten about. There's enough to do without chasing after pages that really don't still need attention. Still, as I said, I doubt I'll put one together if no one else thinks it'd be useful. Thalia/Karen 20:32, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)

Hi. I think the page has become to "meta". A user who clicks on the "dispute" link in "The neutrality of this article is disputed." is not shown an explanation of NPOV and such, but an explanation (and now discussion!) about how to add a similar message to other articles. This kind of meta stuff should be put elsewhere - at least at the bottom of the article. I'll wait a couple of days for comments, and then rework the article. GayCom 02:18, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Good idea. I like starting these kinda articles with "Hi! You've probably come here from an article suffering from a NPOV dispute, that is..." Martin 18:21, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV vs. facts

When is it an NPOV dispute, and when is it really just someone doesn't know their facts?

For example, there was recently a debate on the Talk:Astronomy page over the source of the craters on the Moon. Mainstream scientists (astronomers) agree they're caused by impacts of meteors, however there are other theories put forth by minority groups. (One of these conflicting theories involves some form of plasma or electrical discharge.) These groups are considered fringe and non-scientific and WRONG by the scientists and science educators. The holders of the alternate beliefs consider the mainstream scientists and educators to be propagating unproven myths that are WRONG.

On the Astronomy page this dispute was solved by removing all references to the source of the craters, satisfying the alternate belief holder, at which point the argument died out. Was this the proper way of handling the debate? If not, what would have been more appropriate? --zandperl 04:43, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

IMO the best answer is citations, and thus also Verifiability. IMO NPOV is found when all verifiable POV's are expressed. I don't think its helpful to make unverified generalizations like "most housewives prefer borax" or "most scientists disblieve in weird blasts of plasma creating craters on the moon" when we don't have the applicable surveys to back such statements up. On the other hand, when there are two citations presented, and one is from "XYZ well known scientific journal", and the other is from "ABC random wacko alternative web page" I do think its acceptable to point of the credentials of the former, as well as those of the latter ;). And of course original research is not allowed. In summary, citations and Verifiability are the way to go, and since Wiki is not paper, we have plenty of room for every verifiable POV/interpretation of the data. I would personally love to see a fair accounting of every verifiable fringe interpretation availabe in every article (maybe there would even be enough info to justify its own section?), whats most important is the ability for the reader to learn more, to have access to as much NPOV information as possible. NPOV does not mean a lack of diversity of thought. Sam Spade 07:06, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[P0M:] The beginning of the article on Paraphilia has been rewritten by Sam Space to provide a strongly POV assessment of the whole topic. I see that the neutrality of the article has been disputed by adding a header message to that effect, but it is not listed on the page of disputed articles and I can see no way to edit that page. P0M 03:43, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Specific examples would be helpful, which is to say, too many generalities in many articals ie I had scarsely a clue what plasma astromomy was about until someone mentioned that plasma might make craters on the moon. Plasma making craters is not a mainstream opinion, nor is the harm done by floride in our drinking water mainstream. Wickipedia should identify that which is not mainstream, but remember much of what is now mainstream was called puedoscience a few decades ago, so we should be slow to debunk or delete that which is not mainstream. Neil

[edit] Does this notice apply to project pages?

The project page in question is Wikipedia:Wikiproject:Alternative Medicine/Standards of Quality.

This project is not visible to the public, therefore there is nothing to protect the public from.

I am also of the opinion, that if you are not a participant you do not have the authority to edit a project page. I think the placement of this notice is being used by a bunch of editors to harass both me and the project. -- John Gohde 16:18, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

John is claiming all alternative medicine articles as part of his wikiproject. He is writing guidelines that are over and above normal editting guidelines. He intends to use these guidelines to try and bully people to get his own way on all the AM articles.. We have been adding a NPOV header at the top of the page to let other poeple know that this is not policy, and we don't all agree to his rules. theresa knott 16:27, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Since when is providing SQGs that will allow editors to objectively talk about what is wrong with the latest edit without resorting to personal attacks, a form of bullying people? You are even unable to reply to a neutral question, without resorting to personal attacks and harassment.
And, please Theresa (as in pleading) don't forget about the voting in the Irismeister matter about you refraining from making personal attacks or harrassing me (4.2 Decree A. & B.) in response to my above comments. -- John Gohde 18:20, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Refactoring out personal attacks should not include removing the sense of what was said. It is fair at least to say that Theresa claims that John is using the guidleines to impose his own view on others who disagree with it. --ALargeElk 16:40, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of the details of the issue, it's inaccurate to say that "This project is not visible to the public". It's visible to anyone who cares to look at it. If someone sees an article on alternative medicine and has doubts about its neutrality, they may well dive into the talk pages to see if it's controversial, and would likely be reassured if they find that it has been written to extensive "Standards of Quality". But if those standards are in themselves biased (note - I'm not saying they are, they actually look pretty good on the whole), then it's a false reassurance. My feeling is that the NPOV notice probably has to stay until the issues are resolved. --ALargeElk 16:37, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
I placed a {{msg:NPOV} on the page (a personal style guide written by Mr-Natural-Health) after MNH started deleting parts of Alternative medicine on the grounds that they didn't measure up to it [1]. There is an NPOV warning at the bottom of Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms, for instance. If I am wrong on this point and NPOV warnings are deemed in fact appropriate for style guides, I will certainly apologise to MNH for my error - David Gerard 17:03, May 18, 2004 (UTC)
And this is the crux of the matter. John intends to use these "guides" as a way of enforcing his POV. He can deny it all he likes, but he has already done it.The is no doubt in my my mind that he intends to continue. Personally I think the a NPOV message is far too mild and feel that a proper warning along the lines of "This is not an official policy, this is the personal opinion of John Gohde, you are not required to take anything on this page seriously" in bold red lettering at the top is what's required. But I'll settle for the npov heading. theresa knott 19:23, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Guidelines - style guides - are all well and good. I'm a big fan of style guides myself. But that does sum up my problem with it too: this is a personal style guide being used as if it were hard Wikipedia policy, which it isn't.
MNH is right in that msg:NPOV is probably not the right thing for the article. How about:
The suggestions in this style guide have been based in Wikipedia style guides and consensus policies as far as is possible. However, they are strictly advisory and do not themselves constitute hard Wikipedia policy.
- with whatever linkage would be appropriate. I have posted this to the talk page of the style guide in question as a compromise suggestion to MNH. - David Gerard 21:00, May 18, 2004 (UTC)
The clear assumption behind all these notices is that both talk and project pages are not visible to the public. -- John Gohde 17:43, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
They are however visible to editors. I am not prepared to let you delete stuff from AM and use this "guide" as some kind of authority.
[remove personal attack]. The notice is removed with justification per long established NPOV guidelines. [remove personal attack] -- John Gohde 22:35, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
I've restored my modified version - David Gerard 23:02, May 18, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] New Boilerplate

The new boilerplate should be implemented!!!! 210.50.105.53 05:02, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hell yeah. I saw that thing and was like "YES! It doesn't say 'article'! Much much better!" and immediately attempted to use it, quickly learning the hard way that it doesn't really exist. If I can figure out how to create it, I just might. Dunno if I'm allowed to. Hope I am.Moleculor 04:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] me

I have been accused of bending NPOV, and it has been suggested here that it be discussed here. Thoughts? Sam [Spade] 18:27, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Template:NPOV listing and "walking away"

I'm more than a bit puzzled by the behaviour, to tag an article with Template:NPOV and then "walk away", don't work on NPOVing the article. Or even more strange, claiming "X is perfectly untrue" in the discussion, but don't removing "X" from the article, even when no objections are seen. Should I remove "X" then, even if I know zilch about the question? --Pjacobi 11:33, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Positivism

It reminds me of the positivism battles in ealier days. There is nothing such as neutral. Neutral here means according to a governing opinion. It is very sad that this takes place and we see criticism wiped out of the Wikipedia. That is really sad, the romantic period is over. Wikipedia besomes conservative.

This page most definitely should not be deleted at this time. If and when valid questions about fraud and/or other election irregularities have been satisfactorily answered by recounts etc. which should happen within a month or two, regardless, perhaps the page can be reduced down to a couple paragraphs. If it is deleted before then, however, simple because Bush voters are uncomfortable with discussing the fact that the election may have been stolen, tough! The American people demand due process in legal proceedings. Let due process run its course and let facts cap the controversies, not partisan contributors who are trying to silence legitimate opposition questions by invoking NPOV.

[edit] How can I dispute the neutrality of an article?

I am asking this as I found some articles that are at least very biased! (Greetings by Hektor)

[edit] Troll Kingdom -- NPOV vs. Attention

Could someone please lend some insight on what to do with the Troll Kingdom article. The page, especially the "Users" section seems to be heavily biased. A line describing other forum admin goes, "T'Bonz - Current administrator of TrekBBS and the butt of many jokes at Troll Kingdom. She's proven too often that she cannot be trusted, and has been known to perform her duties while intoxicated." Add to that the rest of it appears to be mainly a vanity entry for various users.

I tagged the article as NPOV but now I'm wondering if it should be handled as one in need of "attention." Comments appreciated. IKato 22:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Nanjing massacre has never been an established historical fact, but a rejected illusion amoung many scholars. Many disgusting picutres the Chinese show are already proven to be fake or not related to nanking, and abusolutely lack of authenticity.

Basic question. How can you kill 300,000 people in a city of 200,000 that increased to 250,000 right after the killing suposed to take place?

I wonder since when Chinese government earned such trustworthiness. We are all supposed to know that the chinese goverment has been infamous for lying for last half of century. We should not make an exception of this one also.

In Japan, for many decades we have been intensely discussing and studying this issue more than any other country including China herself where there is freedom of speech or freedom of press, and have made quite a stock pile of data on Nanking. I think the Japanese really are obsessive Nanking maniacs. People most obsessed with Nanking are Japanese, I can tell you. Afterall it all turned out that there was'nt any Nanjing massacre they claim to exist. There was no witness of the masscre by a third party. There was no picuture that can prove the massacre (although picture is not necessary proveing masscre, it proves that they had to do this kind of things for some reasons). There is no logical explanation that can clear up population contradiction.

I am not denying the Nanjing massacre. I am saying that they are just failing to prove Nanjing massacre.

We don't have any responsibility to prove Nanjing massacre not happened. People can't prove things that did'n happen, because there is no informaition about things did't happen. That is not our responsibility. Resopnsibilities are for people who are claim that it happened. Then our argument starts.

[edit] Can This Article Be Any More Biased Against The United States?

Judging by the grammar and style used, it sounds as though this article, or parts of it have been written by an anti-American British subject. This stuff is getting old.

[edit] Constantine Confusion

I've edited Constantine I emperor to clarify my tale. On the talk page I went into it in depth. These were the thoughts of the Christian writers during Constantine the Great's reign. I cannot control the surviving writings and thoughts of ancient people.User:Kazuba 11 Jun 05

[edit] Policy for removing dispute tags

I think a policy or semi-policy or guideline (something) needs to be decided upon for removal of NPOV tags and other dispute tags. On AIDS conspiracy theories recently over the summer there's be a been a dispute about the title and, subsequently, a dispute over the tag on the article.

How's this for something to start from:

An {{NPOV}} (or other dispution tag) remains so long as at least one party, in good faith, disputes the POV (or other dispution). Removal of the tag can take place by a non-disputing party if the disputing party is Missing In Action for a reasonable amount of time (at least a couple weeks).

Comments welcome. Cburnett 01:43, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea, I second it. zen master T 11:32, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Text already in the guidelines says:
  • Everyone can agree that marking an article as having an NPOV dispute is a temporary measure, and should be followed up by actual contributions to the article in order to put it in such a state that people agree that it is neutral.
I think that there has to be a provision for sunsetting an NPOV discussion that is not active, even if the disputing editor is still active. -Willmcw 20:01, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
If the "majority" is reverting changes and the discussion is obviously still "active" (numerous other people agree there is a dispute) then I don't see how, logically, your construed "sunset" provision can possibly apply to AIDS conspiracy theories? The point is to actually work towards true 100% consensus, not shut out the minority (if there exists an in good faith neutrality dispute). Wikipedia NPOV policy requires that if there is an in good faith dispute, both/multiple methods of presentation/description of the subject should be used rather that exclude anything. zen master T 20:06, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
That doesn't address my point. If there are no ongoing discussions then dispute tags should come down. That doesn't shut down the minority. The minority gets a full chanec to be heard. But if the discussion has ended then the dispute isn't active. -Willmcw 07:13, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
If edits are being reverted by the majority doesn't that prove the dispute is active? If the majority chooses not to debate and instead waits for your invented time limit to expire that also doesn't count as the dispute not being active, you actually have to be debating in good faith, not simply wait. If new editors are comming upon the dispute and agreeing there is no consensus and stating there is a dispute that proves the dispute is active. Also, disputes can be reactivated even if going inactive (if it was just one editor [me] you might have a point but there are half a dozen other editors). I think the current notices at the top of AIDS conspiracy theories are a perfect compromise, they explain the dispute in sufficient detail (and it is pretty obvious there is no "consensus" that "conspiracy theory" is ok). zen master T 11:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Are you looking for a general policy, or just one to apply to AIDS conspiracy theories? Perhaps I misunderstood your purpose. -Willmcw 16:48, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
General. zen master T 16:55, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV summary with tag

It seems that for certain situations, merely having an NPOV tag is insufficient. There are times when it is key to understand not merely that there IS a dispute, but the nature of the dispute. This is particularly crucial when the dispute is to the manner of presentation of the information, not just the information itself. Can I get consensus on a policy that allows a brief summary of the dispute to go with the tag at the top of the disputed page? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:08, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Is there a policy at the moment that disallows editing of the NPOV template? I hope there is, because some users use it as an excuse to continue argument through the article. For example see this edit: [2]. I reverted it twice over the space of an hour or so. It's not going to be possible to do an NPOV summary of the dispute, so we should simply disallow any modification whatsoever of the template, or of any code that purports to look like the template. I'm going to revert to the original tag again on the aforementioned article (Race and Intelligence). Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 23:59, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV-section

Is there any reason why the {{POV-section}} template isn't shown on this page? After all, it links to this page as well. --Ciaran H 18:17, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

None that I can see, now we need to see someone add it well. Thane Eichenauer 07:56, 14 September 2005 (UTC)(what a waste of time!!!!)
Added well or added badly, it's been added. Regards, Ben Aveling 03:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Special relativity (postulates).

As now: 1. First postulate (principle of relativity)

The laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference in which the laws of mechanics hold good (non-accelerating frames).

2. Second postulate (invariance of c)

Light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c that is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body; here the velocity of light c is defined as the two-way velocity, determined with a single clock.

As given by Einstein:

First postulate: Take, for example, the reciprocal electrodynamic action of a magnet and a conductor. The observable phenomenon here depends only on the relative motion of the conductor and the magnet... Examples of this sort, together with... [snip caveats] ...will hereafter be called the "Principle of Relativity" The original author seems to have confused the subject and predicate.

Second postulate: There is no "here the velocity of light..." to add. The author has confused Einstein's definition of time with the second "postulate".

Definition of "time" we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A.

Reference for these corrections are to be found in ON THE ELECTRODYNAMICS OF MOVING BODIES By A. Einstein June 30, 1905 http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/


[edit] Naming Conventions and POV

What is the policy regarding POV titles... What is more important NPOV or common names. If there is a historical event with a name used by one of the participants in the conflict, isn't that considered POV? If there are alternate titles, which are already used in other encyclopedias and are NPOV, but perhaps not the most common, wouldn't it make sense to use that one instead? - Spaceriqui 21:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overuse of template

Has anyone else noticed this template being used when inappropriate? I am speaking specifically of people who place the template on articles because their proposed edits (usually highly POV, as in Abortion; or completely unsupported by any references, as in Bigfoot) are unable to gain consensus or support. I have seen this on a number of articles which I have on my watchlist precisely because they are vandal magnets and troll magnets, and it may be that my perception is skewed, but it looks like this template is being used to violate WP:Point more often. Would it be in order to add some kind of section on when not to place the template on the NPOV dispute page? KillerChihuahua?!? 12:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correcting typo in POV-check template

I tried for the first time to add this template to a page (Philip Owen), and the text exemplar in this article (POV check) didn't work. I found that 'POV-check' does, so I've changed it in this article.--Anchoress 07:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seeking help on editing an article to be truly NPOV

I created Game Over (film) and the article was recently tagged as not having a Neutral Point of view. After reading the article again, I agree; so I'd like to get help so I can make the article truly NPOV. But I don't know who to ask, or where to look for help. Can anyone help me with this? Thanks! Kitsune Sniper / David Silva 19:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Something went awry

Since last tme I'we seen this page, the text became hopelessly vague. The majur focus has been lost: only POV previously published in reputable source is valid for raising doubts in NPOV. A random user cannot just come and say "this is bullshit" and slap a "NPOV" tag: we will have all trolls swarmed here. Meanwile the current policy is full of such vague wording as "only that someone ...", "other people would want to disagree", etc. I am not good at English language. Other people more capable in legalese please review the text to close doors for frivolous NPOV trolling. mikka (t) 01:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mandatory NPOV tag explanation

I suggest that policy require anyone placing an NPOV dispute tag to, upon request, state the objection specifically enough that it can be intelligently discussed.

See this mind-numbing discussion between about 10 established editors and an anon for a current example. I have encountered this same sort of obstinance before, and the current phrasing of the guideline leaves a very tiny bit of ambiguity (enough for a troll to cling to).

In short, if you're not willing to explain the bias, you cannot insist on keeping the NPOV dispute tag. Trivially, if you won't even explain the objection, then it's not a dispute -- everyone might actually agree with you. Derex 00:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. In fact, I'm really surprised that it isn't already a rule. There's nothing more useless than an NPOV tag with no explanation.--Anchoress 02:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Did you actually read the discussion Derex referred to above? 71.212.31.95 03:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes I did.--Anchoress 06:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
As I explained there, when an article violates NPOV, tagging the article is useful because it serves to alert readers that the neutrality of the article is disputed, and that any bias evident in the article is not endorsed by Wikipedia as a whole. The absence of the tag in such circumstance is a disservice to readers and is very damaging to the reputation of Wikipedia. And because the presence of an NPOV warning on a truly neutral article is far less harmful than the absence of one on a biased article, the presumption should be in favor of leaving the tag in place when there is any doubt. All of this is true regardless of whether the tag is helpful to editors in correcting the NPOV problems. So the the tag is not completely useless, even if the explanation is not immediately available or is initially considered by some other editors not specific enough to be immediately responded to. Do you see my point? 71.212.31.95 18:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes people tag articles because they find the facts inconvenient. If anyone truly disputes neutrality, it should be a very simple matter to explain why. That way, truly disputed articles are properly tagged, frivolously disputed articles are not tagged, and editors receive the feedback they need to write a good neutral article. Requiring a substantive explanation, upon request, is a win-win-win. Derex 18:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
71.212.31.95, I see your point, but disagree with it respectfully.
You are hanging your hat on a perception of one part of Wikipedia policy and guidelines, while seeming to ignore many others. You want to banner the article because you think it violates WP:NPOV. You won't say why, or propose a change, and you assert that the banner alone is the most important point -- so people aren't misled into thinking that no one in the universe disagrees with the article. I, however (and clearly others) think that action is close to or an actual violation of WP:Point. The clear solution is to 1) edit the article to fix the problem or 2) gain consensus that there is a POV problem, in other words, find at least a few other editors to agree that the tag belongs. Otherwise, it appears you are vandalizing the article. If you don't see that others are taking it that way, try harder to consider their reasoning. You must assume good faith. I assume your good faith, but nevertheless misunderstanding, of consensus and communication regarding POV disputes. (I am not involved in that article at all.) -- DavidH 18:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
DavidH, I appreciate your response. The problem with trying to fix the problem (with editing or trying to achive consensus that there is a POV problem) before the tag goes in is that even with cooperative editors this can take some time, and with obstructive ones it can take forever. In the meantime, the article is being presented to the world without any indication that its NPOV has been questioned. I'm happy to explain the problems once the tag is in. But I don't want to be delayed in putting the tag in by doing so. Would you mind looking at the introduction to the article and telling me if you see the NPOV problem? 71.212.31.95 21:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It is important that the context of the discussion referred to by Derex above be made clear. I did not insert the NPOV tag without indicating a reason for my concern. The discussion originated with my complaint that the NPOV tag previously in place had been removed without due diligence to ensure that the article was NPOV. The lack of NPOV was obvious from a quick look at the first part of the article or the last part of its discussion page, but no one was willing to do that. When I eventually did try to insert the NPOV tag, it was repeatedly removed, even though I had indicated at least one specific area of immediate concern and was trying to work constructively to address it. I was then subjected to a 24-hour block as a sanction for violating 3RR, based on a complaint that misrepresented these facts. 71.212.31.95 18:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

See this hair-pulling discussion for an example of the likely result of this proposal. 71.212.31.95 19:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too many articles with NPOV tag

It seems lately that every second article I read, especially articles on major political or religious subjects has been slapped with a POV tag. Why is this? I think NPOV is too limiting in some cases, Adolf Hitler, say. NPOV suggests that we should say nothing specifically negative about him, but how can you not when he did what he did? Ditto Stalin, Saddam Hussein and so forth.

The POV tag should only be used in cases of extreme bias for or against the subject (eg claiming someone as 'the greatest footballer of all time' without any qualifiers), and the majority of articles with the POV tag on are nowhere near this. To me it seems that people just slap the POV tag on whatever their political or religious leaning when they find someone's added anything that might be even remotely construed as 'negative', even if that 'negative' addition is general consensus and used in paper encyclopedias. At the rate things are going, every article will have an NPOV tag by 2010, even if twenty billion more articles have been written by then and Wikipedia is downloaded into a chip in our brains. --Stevefarrell 21:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV does not require that nothing specifically negative can be said. To the contrary, NPOV means that all views must be fairly represented. So negative views must be included, or else it's not NPOV. I'm not saying that the NPOV tag isn't abused in some cases. But I think that's because many people don't understand NPOV. A good test, as you suggest, is whether the article would be acceptable in a published encyclopedia. 71.212.31.95 00:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to pick nits user 71, but I don't think it's strictly accurate to say 'all views must be fairly represented'. The neutral point of view states, in part:
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
Emphasis mine. --Anchoress 03:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Groovy. But, I'm sure most would agree, if they browse the site enough, especially if they like to read about political and religious subjects, that there's too many articles that say 'The POV is disputed' for really tenuous reasons. I would say that about 90% of articles listed as POV disputes shouldn't be so listed at all. Anyway, if they're that bothered, why not just edit the article to reword what they view as POV? --Stevefarrell 10:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Anchoress, you point is well taken. Stevenfarrell, the problem often arises when partisan editors obstruct editing that tries to fairly present a POV they disagree with. 71.212.31.95 03:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
There is an underlying assumption generating this discussion, which, when examined, reveals how utterly ridiculous this "tempest in a teapot" really is. Unquestionably, "Leon" was an accomplished thinker, inventor, artist, and dyslexic genius. He was, however, obviously not very well informed when it came to history. His artistry reflects his cultural context, not a historical context. Leon's "Last Supper," upon which all this nonsense/fiction is based, is historically incorrect in every aspect. The architecture of the meeting place, the table, the table cloth, the chairs/benches, the dress of the participants, the European/Caucasian ethnicity of most of the participants, the dress of the participants, the seating of the participants, the table-ware, the "food - biscuits/rolls" on the table, ALL are historically erroneous and inaccurate, reflecting what "Leon" experienced in his daily interactions, in HIS culture. Why, then, would anyone assume that such a historical fabrication, however well-meaning, could/would serve as the basis for any "fact" upon which to build a new "theory?" It sells books and movies and excites those who have no other basis for their perceptions than the imaginings of a "paper-back" fiction writer and a Japanese motion picture company, who are profiting tremendously from this silliness, but it hardly serves as a source of "fact" for anything else. William T.
(1st of 3 paragraphs) The introduction should indicate how common these things are, not to say count them dynamically. The category page begins with a notice that there is "a backlog of over 2,900 articles as of 18 July 2006, and is currently increasing by approximately 125 per week," emphasis mine. Maybe say here that there are thousands at any time, increasing by hundreds per week. That may be reassuring to content editors (good) and discouraging but honest to meta-editors (good) who read this article.
The list down at What links here? is too long to use or even to count. At first I read it as an alphabetical list and thought that I was skimming all the A to F disputes on the first screen, whose arrangement is quasi-alphabetical. The same rough indication of numbers atop the list will preempt any such misconception if the first screen happens to begin with several As, then several Bs. (Now I guess I am skimming what remains of some eldest batch. How are they ordered?)
Too many disputes, yes, but not one controversial issue in Science outside Biology/Health! --P64 20:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to add language to deter edit-wars over the NPOV tag

I recently was involved in a dispute on a page where some editors were edit-warring over whether or not to put the NPOV dispute tag on the page. There was a block of users who felt the page violated NPOV and a block who felt the article complied with NPOV. That war is now over, but I've since bumped into other people who've also experienced edit-wars over the NPOV dispute tag.

It seems to me that these edit wars come from a misunderstanding about what the NPOV tag means-- i.e. some editors think NPOV dispute tag means the article DOES violate NPOV, when in reality, it just means there's a dispute. It also seems to me that if two groups of users are edit-warring over the NPOV dispute tag-- that is probably good evidence that the tag SHOULD be on the page. In other words, we should clarify what the tag means, and sort of "raise the burden of proof" for someone wishing to take the tag down-- such that merely believing the page IS NPOV is not a good enough justification for taking the tag down.

What would people think about adding some text such as the following:

The NPOV dispute tag does not mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is an ongoing dispute about whether the article complies with a neutral point of view or not. In any NPOV dispute, there will be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some people who disagree. In general, you should not remove the NPOV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag probably should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved.

Just a suggestion-- it just seems to me we should add something to help stop people feeling the need to edit war over the NPOV tag, so long as we don't upset any important balances in doing so. --Alecmconroy 16:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should I tag?

I'm new to Wiki and have recently been involved in an edit war between myself and someone else who's opinion on the matter are very strong. It has to do with the politics of calling the United States an alleged "war crimnial". the article is a list of historical war crimes and I understand the need to include alleged crimes in many sections (such as where a certain Nazi general was seen performning the crime and neer prosected) but we're talking about the difference between a government who wanted to take over and rule another country (Nazi's) vs a country who wanted to remove the possibillity of an attack and then leave. Currently we are using a GreenPeace citation and several failed court cases to demonstrate that the US commited a crime but my whole thing is that are the accusations of an activist group and court denials verifibillity enough for a wiki article? The dispute went back and forth with little resolution. I'm not happy with the POV of the article as it stands and tomorrow I expect it to go back even farther into POVland. It should be noted that there is allready an article set up for the discussion of the topic outside of the list thread. My question though.. should I tag the section? --DjSamwise 22:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

DjSamwise, first off-- usually you can ask for help on a content-dispute by going to Wikipedia:Third opinion or doing a Wikipedia:Requests for comment. This isn't a good place to advertise a content dispute because normally no one reads here.
In general, I have a liberal viewpoint about the NPOV dispute tag. If there is an on-going NPOV dispute, i.e. there isn't a Wikipedia:Consensus that the article conforms to NPOV-- then in my eyes the NPOV Dispute tag belongs on the page. I tend to think we can be very free about of which articles we add the NPOV dispute tag to. It never hurts to warn our readers to remember that Wikipedia is written by everyone, that its authors may have biases, and that we should all read it with our critical thinking turned on. I don't think having the NPOV dispute tag on the page somehow means no one will read it-- it just serves as a reminder that the page may or or may not be neutral-- so the reader shouldn't just blindly accept its point of view. --Alecmconroy 06:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How can neutrality be achieved

I think it's inevitably hard, on a page entitled "Criticisms of Wal Mart", to appear neutral. The point of "Criticisms" is that you only list the bad things, and point out the other side of the coin if one is available. As long as everything is FACTUALLY correct, a page entitled Criticism will naturally list points of view that are critical of Wal Mart. --Christopher 21:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

(Comment posted on main page. moved here by Alecmconroy 04:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Prosed merging in of Wikipedia:POV pushing

Wikipedia:POV pushing has "proposed merge" tag with a discuss link pointing here. There has been some discussion on Wikipedia talk:POV pushing.

I think most of its text should be merged into a section here and Wikipedia:POV pushing reduced to a definition and see also this page. --64.232.164.63 00:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

As the original author of the Wikipedia:POV pushing essay, I would like to see community endorsement of it as a 'guideline' or better yet, a 'policy'. In particular, I want to see clarification of "what POV pushing is not":
  • POV pushing is not "adding information that advances a point of view"
  • POV pushing is not "pointing out that an aspect of a topic is controversial"
Before we do the merge, I recommend we decide whether the page should be promoted to a Wikipedia:guideline or a Wikipedia:policy. --Uncle Ed 14:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Group of POV pushers

What if a group of POV pushers insists 'their version' is the Wikipedia:Consensus version and refuse to allow any changes to the article, however minor, without consent of their group?

What if they even revert the placement of a {{POV-section}} tag? --Uncle Ed 18:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just ban them? — Omegatron 19:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are groups of Wikipedians ('cliques'?) that disagree with (or wilfully disregard) tag policy on articles related to the Theory of Evolution and the Global warming theory:

  • Dispute tags are an important way for people to show that there are problems with the article. Do not remove them unless you are sure that all stated reasons for the dispute are settled. As a general rule, do not remove other people's dispute tags twice during a 24 hour period.

Their strategy is to insist that their point of view is the undisputed truth. One tactic is to remove any evidence that published sources outside of Wikipedia have an alternate point of view. Any attempt to incorporate an alternate idea or view is met with instant reversion, typically with an edit comment like 'rv POV'. This clearly violates NPOV policy:

  • Wikipedia's neutral point-of-view (NPOV) policy contemplates inclusion of all significant points of view regarding any subject on which there is division of opinion.
  • It is inappropriate to remove blocks of well-referenced information which is germane to the subject from articles on the grounds that the information advances a point of view.

Perhaps a survey or RFA is in order, to address the anti-NPOV actions of these cliques. --Uncle Ed 13:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Removing AfD tags is considered vandalism. Maybe removing POV tags should be, too?
The policies are supposed to protect us from asymmetrical POV pushing; where one group has more free time or a legion of adherents who can spend time and energy biasing articles and the rest of us simply don't have the resources to "defend" the NPOV. But the policies don't do enough. I don't know what we need to change to fix this, but I've been having similar problems. — Omegatron 13:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ed's just the person to answer that, since he's removed AfD tags from his own articles before. And Ed has a history of misusing dispute tags in contrived content disputes, violating WP:POINT, and is now simply trying to drum up support. "policies are supposed to protect us from asymmetrical POV pushing" Exactly, but that sword cuts both ways. Dispute tags were never intended to be a tool for furthering bad faith POV pushers. FeloniousMonk 15:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute tags, when to use and delete

Two years ago, someone observed here, "I have been accused of bending NPOV, and it has been suggested here that it be discussed here." It wasn't discussed here, fortunately. This would not be the place.

Still there is too much happening in this discussion. More than two years ago, someone else observed above, Hi. I think the page has become to "meta". A user who clicks on the "dispute" link in "The neutrality of this article is disputed." is not shown an explanation of NPOV and such, but an explanation (and now discussion!) about how to add a similar message to other articles. This kind of meta stuff should be put elsewhere - at least at the bottom of the article. I'll wait a couple of days for comments, and then rework the article. GayCom 02:18, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Good point. I'm sure that improved the article. The discussion is still a mess. Shouldn't the discussion be "meta": about NPOV tags and (how to resolve) difficult matters concerning when/where to put them and delete tham? Much of it is but there is too much junk. --P64 21:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I already said this before but I shall say it again. I am disputing the neutrality of the part of the article if Americans Knew which is under the title Israel advocates make false claims for if Americans knew site.-Dendoi Decmeber 9, 2006 12:37 AM

[edit] Why was this info removed???

This as one time was under POV Pushing:

It is often necessary to examine a topic from more than one perspective. This is especially so with controversial topics — such as politics, morality, and religion. But many people come to Wikipedia unaware of NPOV or simply do not wish to abide by it, and hence they routinely and deliberately engage in POV pushing.

The reason they do this is probably that they believe that a neutral presentation of the views they advocate will look bad in comparison to opposing views. And the best way to win an argument is to prevent the other side from getting any time to make its argument. Failing that, the goal may just be to make the other side look bad (ad hominem) or to distort that side's views.

Why was it removed? It is very good.

CyberAnth 03:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I see now that POV Pushing was merged into this article. I disagree. It was butchered into this article. This needs to be addressed. CyberAnth 09:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
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