Wikipedia talk:Notability (music)

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  • Archive 1 — Top 100 hits, notability for performers, albums, size of countries, genres, record labels, college groups, indie groups
  • Archive 2
  • Archive 3 (Feb -> June 2006)
  • Archive 4 (July 2006 -> Dec 2006)

For song criteria, see Wikipedia:Notability (songs) and its talk page.

Contents

[edit] National Tour

What exactly is a "national tour"? I've seen a few articles about novice groups/artists with (maybe) one album from an indie label claiming notability because they went on a "national tour" promoting their album. This criteria appears to allow artists/groups at the very start of their careers an article in Wikipedia. Can other editors suggest some revisions that might make this criterion clearer? Rklawton 22:02, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It's already not as simply as having a national tour. WP:V requires reliable (read independent) coverage, to verify that the tour occurred. So, while a band can easily play gigs in different states, its not so easy to get coverage of the tour in reliable media (e.g. which doesn't include promotional material). --Rob 00:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
That still seems pretty thin. So if I load up my minibus with my sleeping bag, beer cooler, and pan flute, visit a half-dozen cities from coast to coast, and get a few local papers to document that I played a gig in their town, then I can count this as a national tour and have an article in Wikipedia? Rklawton 01:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
You nailed it. It's not nearly as thin as you think, I'd personally rather it be a regional tour, but I haven't gotten much traction on it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
A reasonable assumption with a tour, is that your are not paying for it. Others have chosen to hire you, and others have chosen to write about you (ergo, they noted your acheivements, as they deemed you noteworthy, as in your notable). If you, entirely on your own, do what you say, that's not a "tour". That's tourism. This guideline isn't designed to require fame and fortune. It's designed to include the notable, and exclude the non-notable. It helps stop autobiographies, but not noteworthy biographies. I think the existing guideline, interpretted with common sense, isn't so easy to pass, as suggested. --Rob 01:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
What about "promotional tours" for first-release albums? The folks footing the bill aren't the fans but the producers trying to make a profit. I've seen several cases where bands, albums, promotional tour, and Wikipedia articles have all occurred within a few weeks. Rklawton 02:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I would say, that in such a case, if its a national tour, covered in reliable media, then yes,they probably should get an article. To clarify my comments above, what counts is the band itself are not paying their own way, and most importantly the coverage of the tour is fully inndependent. And of course, as with any article, is must be written from a netural point of view. If somebody makes an article on such a band, and it is neutral, and fully verifiable, I see no great problem. Because the band has been covered by independent sources, Wikipedia is not introducing them to the world, as they've already been "discovered". --Rob 04:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
What's the difference between the band paying their own way and the band's producers paying their way? Also, just because something is independently verifiable, doesn't make it notable. Given the level of difficulty in achieving any of the other criteria, this one seems like an easy hurdle for anyone with a bankroll (but not necessarily talent or a fan base) to overcome. Rklawton 04:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The difference is, that somebody is not deciding they are notable themselves. I really don't understand why you think this is so easy. By your logic, we shouldn't include bands with two albums on a major label, since such a label, could ignore profits, and produce the albums with no hope of sales. After all, you're arguing that somebody with a bunch of money is blindly going around bankrolling bands, sending them to city after city, across the country, with no hope of commercial success. Anyway, I have to get back to the whole issue of independent coverage. You can't buy reliable sources. Of course you can buy media, but media which is easily bought doesn't count as a reliable source. I want to emphasize, Wikipedia, by following reliable sources, is not giving anybody a free intro the public. We're only covering what others (independently) have covered. I'm just not clear on what the harm is here. Can you give me an example of some band(s) that have a national tour, covered in reliable sources, which you feel don't warrant articles they've been given by this "lax" guideline. --Rob 04:52, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
This thread is about the national tours criterion. If an artist has two albums under a national label, they already qualify, so the national tour question would be moot. The question in this thread is what to do about artists who meet no other notability criteria (for example: artists with a single album under an indie label) claiming notability due to a national promotional tour. By promotional, I mean one sponsored by the label's producers to generate sales. When such publicity tours occur, it's a matter of course to generate press releases about the tour. After all, publicity is the entire point, and local papers use these to report on local performances. The end result, however, is that the artist can then claim notability when, in fact, they have accomplished nothing more notable than common marketing techniques. Rklawton 15:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
No its not always the case. I can point out numerious AFDs where the criterea of 'two or more albums on indie lables' didn't satisfy the requirement in the minds of many editors. Not one single requirement dosn't act as a "smoking gun" that reinforces the notion of a band's notability, but a combination of them. So the fact that a band or artist activaly goes out on a nation wide tour, does give them some precident, and should be left alone as-is. I have no problem with the current wording of it, and it shouldn't be changed. RiseRobotRise 20:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DJs and "touring"

Most DJs only tend to play on weekends. If for example a DJ played between 20 and 50 international gigs per year, would this qualify under the spirit of the guideline? One Night In Hackney 19:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes it would, if Radiohead played 50 dates on an international tour, and only played on fridays and saturdays, that should also count. RiseRobotRise 21:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed tag regarding album notability

The tag on the paragraph for album notability says to see the discussion on the talk page, but I can't find any. What's the dispute, and is it possible to resolve it? TheronJ 14:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll remove the tag - since adding it the paragraph has been rephrased. Addhoc 14:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! TheronJ 14:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Still, if there really was a dispute, it would help if someone would explain here what that was. Thanks, -MrFizyx 01:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The current wording of the album section isn't compatible with WP:N or WP:V... Addhoc 15:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand that you feel that way. I gather your solution is to link to WP:LP so that other editors will feel compeled to read your essay which objects to this guideline. I think that linking to an essay which is neither a guideline nor an active proposal, however, is confusing.
I'm not the only one who has removed your link. Where is the discussion that supports your addition? I see very little support for your proposal at Wikipedia talk:Notability (albums) and I'm the only one who responed to your merger proposal on this page. Why insist on sneaking this into the criteria? The current wording already acknowledges that "this guideline is somewhat controversial." -MrFizyx 19:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
UPDATE: After several days without comment, I have again removed the link to Wikipedia:Notability (albums) those interested in the historical essay can find the link here in this discussion. -MrFizyx 16:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

For an album to have a stand-alone article, the album itself should be notable (WP:N) and not just notable by virtue of its relationship to the artist(s). If it isn't all that notable, then there's no reason it couldn't be merged in with the artist's main (or discography) article. Possible critiera could include sales, awards, or favorable reviews from notable and independent sources. I've found two articles today that exist simply because the band was "notable". One album had a self-produced run of less than 100 copies, another hand around 1,000 self-produced copies pressed. That's not notable; it's trivial! Rklawton 17:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "a song or composition which has won or placed in a major music competition"

First 3 messages copied from user talk pages Tyrenius 00:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I reverted a small edit you made to Wikipedia:Notability. It appears you did not realize that "to place" means to do well in a competition; often it means to come in second, so that to "win or place" means to win or come in second. Cheers, Doctormatt 23:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"Has written a song or composition which has won or placed in a major music competition." Is that a US usage, because it's not UK, so it reads oddly and if anything would be interpreted in the UK as won "any place" i.e. maybe 5th place, which I take it is not the intent. The obvious solution then is simply to say "had won or come second in a major music competition." Does that work for you? Tyrenius 00:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Rather than US or UK, I think it might be mostly a horse racing term (though maybe it's a US horse racing term). I think your suggestion of making winning or second place the criteria is good, and much clearer. It does make me wonder, though: why not third? fourth? I'm sure others would have opinions on this. Perhaps if you make the change, others will chime in. Cheers, Doctormatt 00:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Now changed to "Has written a song or composition which has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition". Tyrenius 12:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Other place, huh? Does this include "last place"? Rklawton 13:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd hope so. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Then why mention "place" at all? Why not just say a song that was entered into a major music competition? And what qualifies as "major"? Rklawton 14:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, because anything can enter into a competition, but not everything will place in it. "Major" is deceptively subjective. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem is, "last" is also a place, so is 99th. How about "top five" (or less)? Rklawton 14:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

(outdenting) There is a need for some vagueness here given the nature of some competitions. For example, the "New Folk" competition at the Kerrville Folk Festival starts each year with 32 finalists (already selected from the first 800 entries submitted). Most of the finalists already meet other WP:MUSIC criteria. Six winners are chosen from these (no first, second, third...just six winners). The remaining finalists join "club seven" (a 26-way tie for seventh place).

In a given year, the "Chris Austin Songwriting Contest" at MerleFest has over 1100 entries. The top three winners are chosen in four different categories. In that case I would hope third (last?) place is considered notable.

The criteria should be flexible enough to be useful in a variety of circumstances. We shouldn't micro-manage here; this is a guideline. -MrFizyx 19:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd imagine 32 finalists is reasonable, and when you're talking potential of twelve at MerleFest. If anything, I consider your examples reasons to not touch it - it's pretty solid as is. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that "win or place" should be fine. I sure don't see cruft when I look in Category:Kerrville New Folk Competition finalists. If this criteria is creating a problem somewhere please show me where articles are being created that shouldn't be. -MrFizyx 20:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-English sources

What is the position about non-English sources used as reference to to provide notability? I can understand that links to non-English sources don't fit in the English language wikipedia. But that makes it hard to prove the notability of non-English artists. It would imply that an British or North-American artist is notable as soon as he's written about, but an artist from a non English speaking country first has to be noticed internationally. Could putting the links to the non-English sources in the talk page be an option? I noticed that those links aren't actually checked before a (speedy) deletion, or at least they weren't in this case: Talk:FFF (artist).

Any suggestions on how to resolve this kind of problem would be welcome, as I strongly believe that the article FFF (artist) shoudn't have been deleted the first time and that notability can be proven, though only via Dutch sources.

psi36 18:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Referencing from a non-English source is fine, although English language references are preferred on the English Wikipedia. {{Cite web}} even has a parameter to display the language, if it is other than English. The reliability of the source is more important than the language. Prolog 20:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Massive changes reverted

For now. This edit, while entirely in good faith, appears to have weakened the guideline in a way that no clear consensus exists for. I've added the necessary language that the change was designed to clear up, but I'm not sure we should be weakening the guideline in such a way without some discussion. I'm surprised no one noticed this until now. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Since this reversion has been done on at least three separate notability guidelines, I'd suggest it be discussed centrally here rather than in at least three different places. -- Dragonfiend 03:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
  • They are not "massive changes", and they actually make the guideline a lot simpler. If band A contains one member of band B that is "notable" because another member was once a member of famous band C before they were famous, but there are no sources about band A, we can't have an article because there are no sources. If a band has never released an album, never toured, but has nonetheless been the subject of lengthy discussion in the music press, we can have an article, because there are sources. It's sources that matter. This is an objective test that can e applied to any article, and it's in the notability guideline as the primary notability criterion. Subject-specific guidelines should reflect that because, as I say, without sources even if every other criterion is met, we can't have an article per policy. Guy (Help!) 21:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Right, because of no sources, not because of "notability." This is somewhat frustrating, because even with sources, people don't care. Can't we discuss first and then change things? --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I completely disagree with you on this one, Guy, to a degree that I rarely do. Assuming that the challenged edit represents consensus, the "central criterion" currently requires (1) two, (2) independent (3) non-trivial sources, from which (4) press releases and university newspapers are currently excluded. You can absolutely write an article that complies with WP:V and WP:OR based on one non-trivial independent source, a few press releases, and several detailed university newspaper stories. That article would comply with policy, but not with the notability "central criterion." You could, for that matter, write an article that complied with policy solely from press releases, "trivial" references, and university newspapers. I wouldn't be opposed to a style guide saying that two independent non-trivial published sources are preferred, but saying that it is not possible for editors to agree that otherwise verifiable subject may be notable even in the absense of two independent non-trivial non-university paper published sources is just not correct, IMHO. TheronJ 20:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


Because I have more respect for JzG and W.Marsh than just about anyone else here, I thought long and hard about these changes again. Because the entire thing is based at the "central" location, I'm going to make my detailed thoughts known there, but I'm reverting back to the guideline that has been discussed at length, mostly because of the confusion between "notability" and verifiability. Short answer - if an article is still verifiable, it may not be "notable." If an article is "notable," having the opportunity to find the "verifiable" information is easier, and keeps articles from disappearing too quickly. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, with myspace and purevolume playing a dominant role in independent music and mainstream music, wouldn't a myspace hit count, with bands currently playing be a viable test for testing notability, with articles considered for deletion (to the same affect that the google hit count is viable, not an absolute measure of notability.)…

I'll note that people reverting me are still not bothering to demonstrate the consensus here, either. This is patently absurd. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lists of musicians

Lists of musicians in general should contain notable individuals only. While there are notable musicians who do not yet have a main article on Wikipedia, it is difficult for editors to determine whether a musician is in fact notable when only a red link exists. Instead, the lists' talk pages can be used by editors to request the creation of main article for notable individuals who belong on the list. Some lists such as List of jazz clarinetists already suggest that musicians who do not have a main article should not be added to the lists. Shall we require that all lists of musicians contain only individuals with an existent main article? Shawnc 02:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

No, because the redlinks point to articles that need to be created. Let the redlinks be removed if an article gets deleted or if it obviously won't meet standards. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree in principle that redlinks placed by well-informed editors would point to article that need to be created. Evidently however this has attracted additions by self-promoting users who obviously do not meet notability requirements upon inspection. It is likely that even if an article was created and then deleted, no one would bother to check whether the person existed on another list.
Other lists that have used the aforementioned requirement include: List of guitarists, List of Gibson players, List of jazz bassists, List of drummers, etc. List of Telecaster players requires that a reference or explanation be provided. Some lists such as List of bass guitarists do allow red links provided that the musician is mentioned in an existing article about a group; I agree with this approach since notability has been asserted implicitly. I also feel that red links are more acceptable for lists of non-modern musicians because there is less chance of conflict of interest.
In any case, should we handle lists on a case by case basis, or use a common standard? Shawnc 03:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Case by case. If a person isn't "notable," the article will get deleted in due course. No need to try and regulate with some top-level situation regarding lists, IMO. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that lists should be limited to people with articles in Wikipedia, or who are mentioned in articles on a band. I can see that redlinks give pointers to articles that need to be written, but there are other places for that (see Wikipedia:Requested articles#Topic areas in Music). When I was first started keeping an eye on these lists (and I haven't looked at them for a while; lord knows what they look like now) they were complete messes, full of vanity and spoof entries. How can most editors know which is genuinely notable and which not? Unless they're knowledgeable in all areas of music, there's only one way: those with articles are, those without aren't. (If an article is deleted, by the way, the admin should check to see what links there, if only to follow up and delete redirects.) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

More and more I am coming to be of the opinion that these lists are unmanageable and that we would do well to eliminate them in favor of categories (although these have other problems). In any case, I don't think we should try to manage this within the WP:MUSIC criteria. Problem lists are not unique to musicans. -MrFizyx 16:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I have thought that too, about deleting lists and having the categories instead. However, as there are still lists, I try to maintain many music genre lists, and remove all red links; my reasoning is if it doesn't have an article already, it's non-notable; if someone wants to add something, they can create the article for it, then if it's notable it gets left alone. If not, it goes up for deletion, then later, removed from the list. That's what I do anyway. --Dane ~nya 06:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed tag

I have added the disputed tag because of tendentious editing by some and because of a lack of demonstrated consensus for the changes by others. Consensus for anything to happen at WP:N does not introduce consensus here, and it's arguable whether there's really a consensus at WP:N to begin with. Hopefully people will actually be willing to discuss. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not too comfortable with the recent change, as changing criterion #1 to "central criterion" has changed the numbering of all the remaining criteria. These numbers are referenced from several discussions. I've used "#5" to refer to "Has released two or more albums on a major label or..." several times, but that criterion has now become #4. Prolog 15:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Good point, but I imagine that we could just do #1 (central criterion) instead without disrupting that. If this were to be done, would you find the change acceptable? Seraphimblade 15:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
We could, but there is no actual "central criterion" by consensus. WP:N points here (and to other individual criteria), and doesn't even address itself as "central," but merely a criterion everyone shares. There's no reason to downgrade anything here that I can see. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I think what we're looking for is to develop exactly such a consensus, in the way that every such one gets developed-talking it out! Personally, I'm all for establishing WP:N as the central criterion-no matter what may meet clause A subparagraph 14 in some secondary criteria, if there's not enough source material to write a decent article, then there's not enough source material to write a decent article, and it's not an appropriate encyclopedic subject. Seraphimblade 15:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Radiant has now removed the tag without ever commenting on this page. Small update for those who care. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
As an update, my original reversion and talk page post on this topic was on 24 January. Since then, proponents of the change have not demonstrated the necessary consensus - or worked to build it. I plan on reverting back to the uncontroversial consensus version tonight unless there's a substantitive argument not to do so. Thanks for most everyone's patience. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey BDJ, what would that wording be exactly? Though I don't care much for the wording "central criterion", I think something like that is appropriate for articles on musicians and ensembles. What are your specific concerns? I'm not saying you should or should not revert. I would like to see the dispute clarified. -MrFizyx 16:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
This version, while incorporating your recent edits. This is essenntially the agreed upon version prior to the edit in December. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
OK with me. I don't have a particularly strong feeling either way, but it does seem reasonable to work some reference back to WP:N eventually. -MrFizyx 16:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely, with discussion. d;-) There's some interesting stuff going on there currently anyway, so I'm hoping the discussion over there can be carried over to individual criteria, but not without consensus, and not until the changeover occurs, which will be a while. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of albums proposition

I have created a suggested guidline for notability of albums in my userpage due to confusion of this policy in recent Afd's (Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Side_Show_Freaks). The proposed addition can be found here; User:Ryanpostlethwaite/WP:MUSIC (album). This addition would bring clairty to the what is acceptable for inclusion rather than just taking it as read that an album is notable if the artist is notable regardless of how big the actual album was. Please feel free to edit my userpage if you feel anything should be added/removed RyanPostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 23:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at WP:LP... Addhoc 23:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I've now posted it at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals), but I did simply mean this proposal as an addition to WP:MUSIC, not a seperate guidline as WP:LP RyanPostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 23:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying, I think your proposal is very sensible. Addhoc 00:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Looks way too exclusionary. May as well say goodbye to most indie album articles. What's wrong with the general content forking we see now? Why rock the boat? --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I just think thats its to inclusionary at the minute, and its upto interpretation. What about a notable bands early albums when they were non notable? This guidline is very similar to inclusion for an artist. Indie albums would still have relable published works to merit an inclusion RyanPostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 00:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What we'd be saying goodbye to is non-notable album articles. Many indie albums are covered by various sorts of perfectly reliable reviews, and quite a few have comprehensive enough coverage to justify their own articles. Those which do not can still be covered in their parent artist's article (and let's face it, in the case of a totally non-notable album, the parent article is probably not exactly a half-megabyte article screaming for some content to get forked out so tomorrow's FA review will be successful, it's probably hurting like hell for verifiable content as it is.) Once again, Jeff, you never answered this (and don't give me a "hard work" or "ILIKEIT" platitude)-why should we have a separate article on an album when the only verifiable information is "Nobody Cares is an album by the Barely Notables. It has ten tracks, which are:..."? Why would that not work better as a subsection under a parent artist? Seraphimblade 14:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Mainly because of style considerations and that there's no good argument not to separate them out. There's nothing wrong with verifiable stubs that fork content for ease of use. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Which is ILIKEIT. The argument not to separate them out is that they fail WP:N, which seems like a pretty good one to me. Seraphimblade 21:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It's not ILIKEIT at all, although I do like it more than this alternative. WP:N, in fact, sends you here to discuss music-related "notability," so it currently doesn't fail WP:N. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The way MUSIC reads now, any notable group can produce something called an album, and it automatically gets an article (so long as we can verify the title - though I've seen scores of one-source, self-referencing album articles). As a result, a group that burns fewer CD's than I do (on a good weekend) gets an article for their CD. Here's an example of an AfD that bucked this trend: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Super Worms. Here's another self-released album by the same group. It claims only a 1,000 disks pressed (and makes no mention of sales). Note that an editor is arguing that it is somehow notable solely because it comes from a notable group: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Side Show Freaks. I see no reason why non-notable albums can't simply redirect to the artist's article. In short, why bother creating an article for an album that only lists the group, release date, and tracks? Or, to take the other extreme. If all albums of notable groups get articles, then why not also create an article for each track? After all, the track was created by a notable group... Just like biographies, each article should present a subject that's notable in and of itself and not simply because the subject has a relationship to something (or someone) that's notable. Rklawton 04:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Without the example of an article on Super Worms, it is hard to see how this relates. The AfD appears to have been about software rather than a musical group who burns fewer CDs than you do. It also appears that the software maufacturer was deemed nn. -MrFizyx 20:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yet another rant on album articles

I feel some need to make a statement in support of the status quo on album articles. Here are some points that obviously not everyone will agree with:

  1. If an artist is notable, their work is notable. This is a remarkably easy concept to understand. It avoids the instruction creep that pervades the 'pedia.
  2. Album articles are a good way to organize information. We wouldn't write articles for each of Picasso's paintings and we wouldn't try to list them all in an article about him. Wikipedians have organized them into nine lists for each decade of his life. Likewise, we don't desire articles on every song by every artist nor do we desire to clutter up the artist's main article. Album articles are a logical way to catalog a musician's career--this creates several to tens of articles rather than hundreds. (I note this in part to respond to Rklawton's sarcasm above: "If all albums of notable groups get articles, then why not also create an article for each track?")
  3. Basic album info is easy to verify. They are themselves publications, are well cataloged by labels, widely available in libraries, sold online and in stores everywhere. If verifiability really is the problem with a particular article why not send it to AfD based on WP:V?
  4. Wikipedia's music coverage should be encyclopedic. I mean in the traditional sense of the word, as in comprehensive in scope. Recall the first point in WP:NOT, "Wikipedia is not paper." Also, album info are not mere random facts. I want to be able to look up when Townes Van Zandt first recorded "Sad Cinderella"[1] or to search for albums featuring Kenny Malone on drums.[2] These are desirable features. I see our competition for this as the All Music Guide, not Encyclopaedia Britannica. We aren't yet any where near AMGs breadth of coverage.
  5. Finally, I'm not yet convinced that there is a problem. Cases like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Side Show Freaks seem to be the exception rather than the rule. I gather no one is even suggesting we do away with all articles on albums by 40 Below Summer, just the two out of five that were self-released in very small numbers. Why can't we debate these case by case rather than create complex, overreaching criteria.

Both proposals, Wikipedia:Notability (albums) and User:Ryanpostlethwaite/WP:MUSIC (album), make good points, but they are a big step from the current criteria. Either could result in many deletions if accepted and interpreted strictly. I can offer constructive suggestions on these if a majority feels that something more complex and restrictive is needed. I ask that we think before we creep in that direction. Thanks, -MrFizyx 23:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You put it so much better than me. Bravo. Bubba hotep 23:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Stating the obvious, the music guideline should provide guidance on the minimum standards expected. This includes advising that multiple non-trivial coverage from third party sources are required per WP:N and WP:V. Addhoc 09:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I can understand your desire to reconcile WP:MUSIC with WP:N. WP:V? It is not obvious to me why verifiability relates here. If you have access to the album, you hold the primary source of the basic data needed to start the article. I think this renders the point of having an independent secondary source moot. No other source is going to be more reliable. We could also constantly remind editors of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, but these wouldn't relate to notability either. -MrFizyx 16:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
The purpose of the new criteria was actually to be more inclusive. All notable albums by non-notable artists are excluded under the current, single criterion. How can we justify that such an album is notable in this case? It is impossible, since the artist being non-notable precludes any chance for the album to be considered notable.
Now, if the artist was non-notable, wouldn't a notable album make that artist notable? Intuitively, it would seem so, but the only thing in Wikipedia-land that makes an album notable is having a notable artist. Thus, there is a circular argument keeping many albums out.
I realize that such albums are few and far between, but I would not say they are non-existent. If you would have a look at the latest at User:Ryanpostlethwaite/WP:MUSIC (album), you will see my latest edition (Feb 10.) which includes the "notable artist → notable album" as criterion #1 and then includes most of the other proposed criteria (with some rewording), just to be sure that no notable album is excluded. It should make everyone happy, I think. (Taken from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums#New album notability guidelines.3F) − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
This would also give a far clearer consensus for keeping compilation albums RyanPostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 22:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I suspect that the editors who initially were enthusiastic about this proposal (User:Ryanpostlethwaite/WP:MUSIC (album)) were seeking more restrictive criteria and would not be excited about the current version. Has Twas Now read the deletion debate that was to have inspired this. You have also ignored some obvious problems with WP:CREEP. I'll extend these comments at User talk:Ryanpostlethwaite/WP:MUSIC (album). I encourage others to comment there as this discussion has become quite fractured. -MrFizyx 16:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting wars

What could possibly be wrong with stating that all articles must meet WP:V and WP:RS? WP:V, especially, is a core policy-this guideline couldn't trump or cancel it even if it specifically stated an exemption! I don't think there's a thing wrong with asking people to remember that (especially given that I've more than once seen CD's themselves used as "references", I don't think it'd be a bad idea to send people that direction!) Seraphimblade 14:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Note also that Wikipedia isn't just a collection of facts album name, group, and track lists, for example. I wouldn't have any objection to creating album or even track redirects back to the group when the ablum or track doesn't rate an article. Rklawton 14:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The main problem as I see it is that it took a long time to come up with a really good statement of what we actually mean by notability, and why. While we were thinking about that, poeple came up with a lot of cntext-specific guidelines which all fundamentally aimed to achieve the same thing: an objective set of criteria. Now, of course, we have the primary notability criterion, and that has a very great deal of support. So much so that if you were to take to AfD an article which met every one of the criteria listed here except multiple non-trivial coverage, it would, today, likely be deleted. That is a good thing. It means that notability has the same meaning everywhere. It also means that we don't get Wikilawyernig about whether a tour which takes in one bar over the border in Canada is an "international tour", or whether a band is recursively notable because it includes A who was in B which included C who played with D who is in E which is a side-project of F which once had a chart hit. Guy (Help!) 15:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I see your point there, and I think we've got to mention the central guideline one way or the other. Why couldn't we do both, though? Mention WP:V and WP:RS, and also make clear that this is just intended to be a list of things that probably pass the central guideline, not a list of things that are acceptable even if they don't pass WP:N. Seraphimblade 15:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Some responses to Guy:
    1. My prediction is that if you really nominated an article which met every criterion on the list except multiple non-trivial coverage, the article would be overwhelmingly kept on the grounds that even if no non-trivial coverage could be easily found, it must almost certainly exist. (My object lesson in that particular norm was Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alcohol_120%).
    2. Also, I think the representation of the "multiple, non-trivial" criterion as "objective" is overstating the case. We haven't really gotten into it yet, but my understanding is that "non-trivial" is a subjective analysis, and the number of sources necessary to satisfy the "multiple" condition in any particular case depends on a subjective analysis of the depth and importance of each source. "Two sources of at least 500 words each" would be objective. "Multiple, non-trivial sources" is subjective. In fact, many of the criteria Guy doesn't like are more objective than "multiple, non-trivial sources."
    3. I tend to agree with Seraphim. If the concern is really WP:V, then let's just put something high in the guideline saying that all articles must comply with WP:V regardless of their notability. (As I mentioned above, it is entirely possible to write an article that complies with WP:V from a sufficiently large collection of "trivial" sources, "non-independent" sources, and university newspaper articles. Although such an article wouldn't meet the "multiple non-trivial independent sources" criterion as stated here, it would absolutely meet policy requirements.)
    Thanks, TheronJ 15:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Guy, is the spirit of this longstanding and informed consensus about objective criteria regarding the notability of indie bands reflected in your creative application of it [here], where you've nominated an article for deletion on the basis of criteria for which there is no consensus (e.g., # of myspace friends, no javascript running in your browser)?--Jeandjinni 14:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bands with trademarked names

Has any consideration been given on how bands with federally/national/international trademarked artist and band names should factor into the notability criteria? Securing a federal trademark for a recording artist usually requires a verified track record of commerce at the national level within a given nation. Perhaps the patent and trademark databases of individual governments of nations would be a good place to start. I would also suggest caution and professionalism by editors when dealing with bands names that have federal/national/ or internationally trademarks secured. Such artists, and more importantly their record labels (the ones that like to litigate), would have certain legal rights under trademark libel laws, so make sure what you post publicly is accurate about such artists, that will help the Wikipedia owners avoid litigation.AudioJin 08:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As to the first point, I don't believe that having a trademark does anything more than verify the existence of a business entity, for our purposes. "Having a track record of commerce" simply means releasing the product, it does not make it notable.
As to the second, a reference to trademark libel, Wikipedia should by policy only use disparaging information that is verifiable through reliable sources. Disparaging information about individuals is covered by our biographies of living persons policy, and should not be posted uncited in any case. --Dhartung | Talk 19:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reversed change

I've reversed the following change diff, and accordingly have placed it here for discussion. For my part, I believe that the version reverted to is far better, and prevents people looking at the following guidelines the wrong way. The "band" guidelines should be looked at as something that means you're likely to find sources if the band meets the criteria, not you're excused from finding sources if that's the case. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 21:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a shame, but not unexpected, I suppose. Your version lacks consensus, for the record, while the portion I reverte dback to has sat here for over a year with minimal quibbling, and also said essentially the same thing without downgrading other portions of possible "notability." I was hoping we could move on from this dispute, apparently not. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree that there are "other portions of possible notability." The only notability is sufficient secondary source mention for a comprehensive article. It might be desirable to have other guidelines that tell people when it's likely that they'll be able to find sources, but not if it confuses them into thinking they don't need to bother actually finding them, or if it confuses people into thinking that a subject is acceptable even with a demonstrated lack of those sources if it passes some other arbitrary cutoff. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 21:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
You disagree, but traditionally, this has not been true, and in reality, it certainly isn't. A subject can be "notable" without being verifiable, which is hwat continues to be conflated here. The consensus version of this page has been in place for ages, where's the consensus for the recent change here? --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
In real life, people haven't been using your criteria, despite whatever this page says. Reminder: guideline/policy/whatever is not what's written on some particular project-space page at some particular time. In real life, unsourced/undersourced band articles get deleted, and no amount of assertion that they meet the other criteria will save them from being subject to our core content policies. That said, the change in question is IMO a small one. Friday (talk) 21:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Right, for unverifiability, not "notability." As noted time and time again, we can't confuse them, which is what we're doing. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflicted reply) Jeff, look at the page history! You were the only one who objected, while others continued changing back, and telling you to knock it off. That's exactly what a consensus looks like. I asked you somewhere else what would satisfy you that consensus has formed against you. Would you mind answering that one? Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 21:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I answered it there, and I answered it here - demonstrated consensus at this talk page that your version actually has consensus. Given that your version was never discussed here in the first place, it's tough to say it ever had consensus. You want to include it, you have to demonstrate the consensus. Meanwhile, my version has at least two other people claiming that a reversion is okay, so I'm not sure where you come up with my being the "only one." --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Jeff, to be blunt, you're not stupid, so don't act like it. That change has been discussed in general at multiple locations including WT:N and WT:BIO. Support of the change was overwhelming-I didn't actually see anyone against it besides you, and if there was anyone, there weren't many. You know all of this, you participated in the discussions. Support of the change was overwhelmingly in favor. If you don't consider that consensus, what do you? Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 21:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"In general" simply isn't good enough - can you really be sure that people who watch this page watch WP:N, or even know that it was promoted - and I can't even say the "consensus" at WP:N was overwhelming, either, but we're running with it. If you don't think I'm stupid, then start talking to me like you think I am and start providing some evidence that consensus was reached here for the change. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, are you seriously objecting on the grounds of where the discussion took place??! That's.. well, bizarre. As a whole project, our understanding of notability has become more refined that it was in the past. The realization that notability is indicated by sources rather than by some subject-specific rules we made up ourselves is a Good Thing. If the folks who watch this page aren't up to speed on this yet, that's fine, they will be eventually. Friday (talk) 22:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup, agree with Friday, it's common sense that guidelines and policy should be reasonably compatible with each other, so consensus reached at WT:N, for example, clearly has relevance here. Also, if you add Guy, W. Marsh, Radiant, Friday, Seraphimblade, Rklawton, Ryanpostlethwaite and me on this page, then I think you have something close to a reasonable consensus anyway. Addhoc 23:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
But discussion at WP:N didn't relate back to here at all - when was anyone who pays attention to this page invited to take part if it was going to directly influence it. And if you want to start simply counting heads, then you can add Theron and MrFityx or whatever to my side, plus the year plus of guidance this has given. This is silly. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know that I'm on anyone's side, really. Jeff is correct, however, to change the music policy you need to build consensus on THIS PAGE. WP:N does not automatically trump other policies. That said, I think WP:N should apply to musicians and ensembles as well as composers and lyricists. What is being called the "central criterion" here, however, is not an accurate reflection of WP:N. For starters, at WP:N it is now called the "primary notability criterion". Another problem I see is the added devaluation of university newspapers--this does not come from WP:N nor WP:RS, but is given here as part of the "central criterion"? Third, I think this page's attempt to clarify "non-trivial", misses the mark. For example, an interview in a major media source should be non-trivial, but this criteria indicates otherwise for "publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves..."
Why don't we use this talk page to find more acceptable language rather than to make claims about head counts for our revert wars? -MrFizyx 08:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I would never argue that WP:N could trump any policy, and I don't think any guideline ever could. The dispute here, however, is not WP:N trumping a policy, it's about WP:N trumping its own sub-guidelines! The "dispute" here strikes me as arguing whether a person "trumps" his or her own hand, and of course they do. The hand can't somehow act in a way that's separate and detached from the person's body. It's the same here-we should be trying to tell people "These are some circumstances under which you are likely to be able to find reliable and sufficient coverage to satisfy WP:N", not "These are circumstances under which you are exempt from providing enough coverage to satisfy WP:N, or should create an article even if you know you can't." Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 08:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
WP:N already contradicts most of the guidelines it points to, and is not currently accurate in its wording anyway. Most "notability" guidelines fail to share the "primary" criterion, and, again, the consensus that the "primary" criterion is in fact primary is somewhat tenuous anyway. WP:N does nopt have the same history that the individual guidelines do, and there's no suggestion that a) WP:N is "higher" than the individual ones, or b) that anyone's attempting to depreciate these at this point. Thus, when someone sees an AfD for a musician, they're not going to look at WP:N, but WP:MUSIC, which is the overriding guideline for musicians. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
One problem with Seraphimblade's analogy is that the various "arms" of wikipedia have operated for some time independently and we are not being informed at to what the "head" has been up to. Also, as Jeff notes the wording of WP:N need not be interpreted as dominant. -MrFizyx 16:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This guideline provides possible alternate methods of being notable without being covered in multiple non-trivial publications. It is definitely possible for something to not satisfy the latter but still be a reasonable article topic, for instance NASA logo or some of the smaller Rambot settlement stubs, which are only covered as "trivial" mentions alongside other similar topics in maps or lists. And of course there's the overused example of Pokemon. --NE2 13:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't agree with you on the subject of NASA logo; it wasn't remotely difficult to find a few sources. If your suggesting the approach taken by the current version of WP:N is likely to encourage minor Pokemon articles to be merged until they actually have some reliable sources, then I honestly don't see a problem. Addhoc 13:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, so that wasn't a great example. There are certainly ones out there; an article can be reasonable yet not meet the definition of notability given in WP:N. --NE2 13:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
How about Jordanhill railway station? As far as I can tell, all of those sources are "trivial", in that they are not about the station itself but about the system or about Jordanhill. --NE2 14:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I partially agree with you on this. I gather this is what TheronJ meant, that in some cases there can be enough reliable sources to write a decent article. Personally, however I don't see a problem, we are only talking about a guideline. Addhoc 14:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
"Only talking about a guideline" which wants to be the deciding factor on what's "notable" for inclusion. If you start making exceptions in those areas, the validity is lost entirely. I brought up Mom and Dad as an example at WP:N - it does not meet the guideline in any way shape or form, although it's arguably the most important movie of its genre - it's not the subject of multiple, non-trivial works, instead getting mentions in a variety of greater works. The "primary" criterion is a failure in that regard, and it's why it rightfully points to the subject-specific guidelines - they handle what's "notable" for a specific subject better than assuming that "notability" has to extend beyond verifiability. A band that's toured extensively, but is only featured in group articles is "notable" and verifiable, but does not meet the new criteria - it means that this severely weakens the ability to include "notable" artists. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, NASA logo is an excellent example - it is not "the subject of multiple, non-trivial works" independent of its subject as currently written. Encyclopedic topic? Absolutely. "Notable?" Without question. Meets the "primary" criterion? Nope. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Jeff and I have actually been (for once) in agreement on changing WP:N, and it appears the change may be able to find consensus-instead of "multiple non-trivial sources", simply change it to "sufficient reliable secondary source material." Of course, we'd still have to determine "sufficient for what", but I think this would solve a lot of problems. Something on which tons of reliable information is available but has never been covered as a central subject, something that's been the subject of multiple "blurbs" that treat the subject as central but provide little information and basically repeat each other shouldn't. I think that would solve many of these concerns. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 19:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] refocus on music criteria

I feel like the examples of NASA logo, Jordanhill railway station, and Pokemon are getting us off the subject. Name some musician/ensembles or composer/lyricists that are notable under WP:MUSIC and yet might not meet the primary criterion as stated at WP:N. I feel that WP:MUSIC criteria should now be explicit as to when/how/why/if exceptions to WP:N need be made. My view is that albums by notable artists are a reasonable exception, but the artists themselves should probably be able to meet WP:N in nearly all cases. -MrFizyx 16:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

My favorite example are members of the Elephant Six Collective. Arguably one of the more noteworthy independent rock collectives of the late 1990s, most, if not all, of their acts are "notable", although many of them aren't going to garnish much in the way of media attention, especially if they're involved in other more well-known bands. The Gerbils struggle to meet this standard, although Neutral Milk Hotel doesn't, even though they share members. The Essex Green doesn't have a problem, but The Sixth Great Lake most likely does. I haven't done as much hard research into these the way I have some of the other examples I've brought up, but the point is that a) they are "notable," and b) they don't meet the new criteria. We shouldn't have to make exceptions when the old version served us well. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This search appears to indicate there are plenty of sources available... Addhoc 17:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
For the collective, sure, absolutely. For the individual bands, not as much. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Then the standard wiki procedure would be to redirect the individual bands to the collective article, if they are not notable sufficiently on their own. Stirling Newberry 18:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I would agree that we should be specific about when an exception should be made, but also about how-which, in 99.9% of cases like Jeff brings up, would be "Create redirects and merge as necessary to an umbrella article until and unless enough sources are available for individual ones." It should be a very, very rare case that an article that doesn't pass WP:N is allowed, and any argument for those rare cases could simply be made by an individual's reasoning on the basis of WP:IAR, which would lead to the appropriate level of evaluation and scrutiny. What we shouldn't be saying is "Sufficient secondary sources are required unless the subject is a pro athlete, or had a gold record, or is listed on a stock index, or received a webcomic award, or it's a Pokemon character, or a high school, or...". If we're going to carve out exceptions, that raises a very important question: How do we carve out exceptions for some things but not others while avoiding systemic bias? Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 19:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
But redirects and merges aren't helpful, neither is having to rely on IAR when we're completely capable of making a useful guideline. It's probably not as rare as you think to have an article that doesn't meet WP:N, because it's so absurdly strict. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
All Music Guide entries for The Gerbils, Neutral Milk Hotel, The Essex Green, and The Sixth Great Lake provide a starting off point for articles on the individual bands. Surely someone with knowledge of the genre can locate another article or two on each. -MrFizyx 19:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
"The Sixth Great Lake" for example has reviews in several on-line publications (PopMattersFakeJazzSplendidZine). Shouldn't doing the "hard research" be part of the process of creating an article? -MrFizyx 19:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
AllMusic is not all that much of anything for a starting point, and traditionally has not conferred "Notability". Splendid, great, I never would have bothered there, but I didn't think PopMatters would qualify either, given the history. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
History? I dunno, it seems these would provide enough sources to meet WP:N even if they didn't offer everything you would desire for the article. This is certianly suggested at Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Resources. Are you saying these are usually devalued in AfD? I have not seen this. -MrFizyx 20:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but, to be fair, I haven't been involved in any contentious music-related AfDs, either, so things may have actually adjusted themselves properly since then. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting to old version

The "it is important if someone chatters about it" version is not acceptable in any shape manner or form. The basis for inclusion should be notable and verifiable accomplishments, whether or not the chattering classes choose to chatter. A band that charts, even if people don't write about them, is verifiably notable. Of course the article must still consist of acceptable sources - and self published sources almost never qualify already. Stirling Newberry 18:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Stirling, I won't comment on your class war analysis, apart from reminding you that consensus determines the guideline. Addhoc 19:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Stirling, Lets try not to get too hypothetical. Can you give some examples of artists with charted hits for which "nothing" has been written? -MrFizyx 19:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just writing about Jaroslav Volek - about whom almost nothing has been written in English, and only one article explaining his theories - by a student of them, which, under these guidelines would not qualify. And yet, he is cited by several peer reviewed journals. Since these aren't articles about him, but articles which cite him, they don't meet the standard either.

Further this guideline does not have consensus. This is not an article which can be "held" by simple reversion, it claims to have broad support, when it does not. Further the people shoving this version through seem to be ignorant, at least, about the history of the guideline - which was just being discussed and editted a few months ago. Nor were the people involved in that last round contacted and asked whether they felt it to be a good idea.

This round of the guidelines is being pushed through in a disrespectful, dishonest and uncivil manner, and inviolation of wikipolicy which demands consensus - not revert ganging - for guidelines.

Stirling Newberry 21:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

My sense is that the external links that you provide in the Jaroslav Volek article would likely meet the criteria in WP:N. Two sources look to be a fairly in-depth articles from conference proceedings, probably not peer-reviewed, but I'm not certian that this is required. The second is in Czech which leaves me at a loss, but does not mean that it is not a relaible source. I think the intention of several editors here is to see criteria that require there to be at least some minimal amount of verifiable information to be available before an article is created.
I and others here may be ignorant of some of some of the history these criteria. Your tone, however, and assumption that nearly every other editor is somehow acting in bad faith seems to be out of line. -MrFizyx 17:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

And by the way, as a some time member of the "chattering classes" your accusation of my engaging in class warfare is absurd. People write articles for all sorts of reasons, and there are many examples of conflict of interest in decisions to write, or not write, about an individual, event or movement. Proximity to people with a byline may be helpful to producing notability, but it is not, by any means, reliable as a chief criterion, simply because the provenance of current articles is impossible to verify, and therefore outside of wikipolicy on what articles can be based upon. It cannot be verified, in the present, why someone wrote about someone, and therefore cannot be a criterion, because there is no verifiable way for someone else to dispute it.

Stirling Newberry 22:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


What is going on with all the reverts? The guidline has been destroyed. Its not even the same as it was before all this started. I'm now going to be bold and revert the artist notability section back a couple of weeks until we've decided exactly what we're going to do, at least this is generally accepted. Please discuss here before making any further reverts RyanPostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 23:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. Guidelines should not be unilaterally changed, when there is contention. Consensus needs to be achieved through talk first of all. Tyrenius 00:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Stirling_Newberry, you wrote: A band that charts, even if people don't write about them, is verifiably notable. Charts where? How high? And for how long? I fail to see how positions on various charts constitute more reliable sources than do multiple nontrivial CD or gig reviews. Chart methodologies (which involve variously weighted criteria such as Soundscan data, retail shipments/returns comparisons, radio airplay, not to mention the transformation of music biz metrics in the light of digital distribution...!) can vary as significantly as do critics' methodologies for choosing what gets reviewed and what doesn't. While I think charting can be used to help make the case for Notability, I don't think it constitutes Notability in isolation from other factors.--Jeandjinni 04:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

  • For "notability?" You'd better believe it's more useful. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
    • But I don't believe that. Not at all. Am I to believe that charts, which base their evaluations on (1) radio airplay (which is as a matter of routine gamed in North America through independent promotion, and anyway mostly owned by a horizontally and vertically integrated oligopoly of a small and shrinking number of companies) and (2) distributor-sales-before-returns (which are the dominant factors in the calculus of Billboard and other well-known charts) use a reliable, objective methodology for determining what is musically Notable or non-notable? To argue this would be absurd. I could argue that charts are completely devoid of informational value outside of certain business circles, but I'm not even going that far here. I'm merely arguing that charts are as subjective as music criticism, and as such their utility for determining Notability is only persuasive - and not conclusive, as Stirling claimed. There's nothing controversial or novel about what I'm saying. The subjectivity and bias of mainstream pop music charts have been the subject of peer reviewed studies for several decades.--Jeandjinni 04:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
      • They may be subjective and biased in compilation, but they're one of the best arbiters we have of popularity and of breadth of exposure. An airplay chart, even if adds are done on a crappy basis, still tell us how often a song is played and thus heard. Even if it's sales-before-returns, it's telling us how many copies are sold out there. It's excellent raw data, perhaps better than a record review or whether a band toured. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
        • To be precise, sales-before-returns (or "shipments", a measurement relied on in RIAA figures) is not an accurate reflection of retail sales, as it only accounts for orders from distributors (and does not account for the massive amounts of unsold merchandise later returned, ultimately, back to the record labels from which they came). Soundscan is more accurate, but also biased insofar as it doesn't reflect music sales outside its data collection system (indie retail, some global markets, many online digital distributors). Regardless, I'm in agreement with you, badlydrawnjeff, that charts should be used as a criterion for Notability (even though the relevance of traditional chart methodologies is fading fast). But surely you can agree it shouldn't be used as a decisive criterion for notability on its own? As I asked before, charted where? At what position? For how long?--Jeandjinni 13:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
          • Sure, some caveats are important, but as a basic, broad standard, it's probably as objective as you can get. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted changes for discussion

As these changes were not placed here by the person who reverted them for discussion, I am placing them. I would ask everyone to refrain from allegations of "bad faith", regardless of what side (s)he is on-there has been significant support for this change in many areas, the guideline was changed to this for quite some time, and I don't believe that the person who made them acted in bad faith in any way. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 05:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

He's going further back than what was consenusally agreed to, but he is right that the latest updates are being rammed through, although I don't believe it's in bad faith. --badlydrawnjeff talk 06:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I've placed a central discussion here. I've certainly seen no consensus to remove these changes, many of which are months old, but hopefully discussing them at one place will develop a consensus one way or the other. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you should worry about getting the consensus here? --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus, merely a small number of editors running a revert war. More over, it is a bad faith revert war with lies in edit summaries in defense of patently absurd guidelines. Since you refuse to abide by the basic conscept that guidellines must be able to maintain consensus - that is broad agreement with no important parties unwilling to join, but ar einstead attempting by revert force to impose your ideas, ideas which do not stand scrutiny in a rational way, there are no guidelines. Clearly you don't agree with the old ones enough to abide by them, fine - consensus requires everyone be on board. But likewise, you cannot, by temporary wikicracy impose your views. Stirling Newberry 14:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Hatta Scandal and why the imposed guidelines are errant nonsense, complete foolishness and beneath contempt

Since we are in edit war I will be blunt. The guidelines a few editors are trying to impose here are complete garbage. They so wrong as to be laughable. A good example of why is the Hatta scandal from classical music. Hatta was a pianist whose career was cut short in the 1970's because of cancer. And yet she released a stream of records on her husbands label, a few well placed critics, including at the Guardian UK, created a cult of her reputation, despite the fact that she did not tour, and no on could verify even that the performances in question had happened. It turns out at that a significant number of the recordings released were plagarized - perhaps the majority since everyone that has been checked has turned out to be plagarized. In some cases rather obviously so.

Under these guidelines, until a couple of weeks ago, Hatta - despite no tours, no airplay and no sales of any significance since the 1970s - would be "teh most important pianist Britain has ever produced".

The reality is that the world of music journalism is rife with conflict of interest, inacccuracy, attempts to create cult status as part of a PR campaign and so on. These guidelines would allow a few well placed music journalists, with some back door payments, to create a "notable" artist without that attending musical accomplishments, and would make what these music journalists say more important than verifiable accomplishments. This is why the original guidelines focused on things that are hard to fake, and if faked can be debunked. Where as the myth of Hatta has been going on for years.

The absolute absurdity of making POV sources - because critics are POV tertiary sources, and not secondary sources - into the standard of notability is hazardous, illogical, irrational, dangerous, unencyclopediac and opens the door to the ability to deliberately manipulate wikipedia by simply working a few people at a cocktail party.

Decisions on wikipedia must be by verifiable means. We cannot verify critics claims, merely document them if they are some how about someone who has verifiable accomplishment.

Again, these guidelines do not have consensus, they are being revert warred into place, and they sink so far beneath the level of rationality that they are completely unacceptable, nor is there any basis for discussion going forward at the present time.

Stirling Newberry 14:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hit on any national music chart footnote

We currently have:

Has had a charted hit on any national music chart.[footnote 3]
...
Note 3: There are, at present, no precise definitions of a "small", "medium" or "large" country in this context. However, a very limited definition of "small" will generally be used, excluding only a few of the world's smallest countries.

I think the note has become unassociated with the text it refers to, somehow. Can somebody who knows what it's supposed to be attached to fix it? JulesH 19:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Fixed to remove Note 3 from the chart item (criterion #1). Note 3 still applies to the touring item (criterion #3), mainly because there still seemed to be no consensus as to what constitutes a notable tour. Dl2000 22:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Looking ahead

So a lot has changed the last few weeks with this guideline, and most notably (heh) the "primary" criterion has changed over at WP:N. Since there are numerolus disputes both concerning the "primary" criterion and the wording of this guideline here, I think it's worth covering the recent changes:

  • The "primary" criterion has changed to the "common" criteron to reduce confusion over the word "primary," and reflect that the criterion is simply shared amongst many guidelines at WP:N.
  • The wording has changed from "multiple, independent, non-trivial" to a more concise and descriptive definition: "A topic is notable if it has sufficient, independent works that are reliable and can act as the basis for an encyclopedic article."

As there is a desire to have the common criterion expand across, in the interests of this and in the interests of gaining consensus, do we want to change our initial wording as well to reflect the "sufficient, independent works" wording? I think it's more accurate and addresses the concerns of a few editors who worry about the direction this guideline has been heading. Thoughts? --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I should think yes. We ought to change the wording here. I don't have an issue with dropping the "non-trivial" adjective. I also like the flexibility that "common" implies. Moreso than the hierarchical term "primary" it acknowledges the need to reconcile general Notability policies with subject-specific Notability guidelines.--Jeandjinni 16:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musicians - artists or not?

Please see Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(artists)#Overlapping_with_similar_guidelines where I raised the issue of whether that proposal should include musicians (by copying parts of this proposal) or should it be limited to fine arts only.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bootleg albums - notable, not notable, or need independent sources?

The guideline currently says that albums are notable if their band is notable. However, I stumbled across this article: Tales from the n9ne - a bootleg from Tech N9ne. The band is clearly notable .... but is the bootleg? And if yes - why? --Alvestrand 18:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This is one of a few areas where our very simple guideline for albums does not offer much help. My opinion is that if the bootleg/demo tape/whatever is frequently included by reliable sources as being part of the discography of a notable artist, then it is notable enough for a page. If it is not usually listed as part of Tech N9ne's discography then it should assert it's own notability (e.g. via general criteria such as WP:N). Again, this is just one man's opinion. -MrFizyx 07:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note on albums

I added the following sentence to the Albums section:

However, as an organizational guideline, unless the article on the artist is already very long, it may be better to merge the album information to the artist's article.

Please discuss (and revert if needed). —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-25 07:52Z

I have one problem with that; what establishes very long? In my opinion, very long would be a brief introductory sentence, infobox, tracklisting, and maybe credits. If that isn't very long, surely it would be way too long to incorporate into the artist's article? Unless the article is the barest of stubs with maybe one release... --Dane ~nya 12:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Article size, articles are considered to be longer than advisable if they are over 32 KB of total text (i.e., what you see in edit mode). This is not a hard and fast rule, but some older browsers have difficulty displaying a page more than 32 KB long. So, if a merge will result in an article less than 32 KB long, the merge is appropriate in terms of size. Any article that is much more than 32 KB in length is a candidate for splitting, if the topic allows an easy split. -- Donald Albury 15:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Good points Dane nya and Donald Albury. I've added a link to Wikipedia:Article size. —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-25 21:13Z
Against it. I strongly prefer to have separate album articles. Albums usually consist of lists (of tracks, credits, etc) and infobox and this messes up the articles flow, especially when there are more than one album which is the case in most musician/band articles. Besides what is the problem with having them as separate articles anyway. Spearhead 22:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I would agree. If there are more than one album, which one gets inclusion into the main article? --Dane ~nya 02:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
All, of course. Until the article gets too long, at which point it would be split into individual album articles. Same reason that we don't have a separate article on every single ever released by a notable artist... —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-26 02:54Z
Also against it. This is good advice for a few cases, but not in general. Also, it seems that any new guidelines regarding how to organize an album article and a music biography should also have some discussion on the talk page for Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums (and maybe also Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians) where general advice is given on such matters. -MrFizyx 17:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Album/single reviews

There seems to be some confusion about whether a review of an artist's latest album/single is classed as a non-trivial published work. In my opinion it shouldn't, for the sole reason that there are thousands and thousands of sites out there that will review music that gets sent to them. If such reviews are classed as a non-trivial published work then any artist that has been reviewed on more than three sites can be classed as meeting the guideline. One Night In Hackney 21:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Question: What do you call a published non-trivial piece of writing that analyzes the artistic and musical qualities of a sound recording? ... Answer: a review.
Certainly reviews published in printed magazines and newspaper and most of their on-line counterparts are non-trivial. I would also count reviews collected on the personal web site of a professional journalist or radio host. There are certianly trivial reviews out there too. Reviews posted on blogs or by users of sites such Amazon.com or Epinions.com, don't meet the threshold required by Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources and are pretty much junk. I would also diregard anything published by a site whose primary purpose is to sell you CD's (e.g. CD Baby, etc.).
I think you overestimate the ease with which one is able to obtain independent reviews. Writers and editors pick and choose and in most cases I think only fairly small fraction of what gets submitted gets a published review.
Reviews are important sources for any album article as the various viewpoints in those secondary sources allow editors to discuss the album from a neutral point of view. -MrFizyx 17:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually I don't overestimate the ease with which one is able to obtain independent reviews, and even if I did it isn't relevant to the point I'm making. While it isn't easy to obtain a review in a large widely distributed music magazine, it is relatively easy to obtain a review on the many sites that exist to by and large review music. As I stated earlier, there are thousands of these sites, and all it takes to meet notability criteria is to get three of them to review you. A "piece of writing that analyzes the artistic and musical qualities of a sound recording" isn't generally speaking much use as source material, as opposed to an article about the artist rather than a review of an album. One Night In Hackney 18:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, educate me a bit. Name a few of the "thousands and thousands of sites out there" whose policy is something like "will review any CD submitted" and arguably meets the guideline for reliable sources. Then maybe I can better understand your concerns. -MrFizyx 00:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
OK how about this site you recently cited in an AfD? For the record I'm aware it wasn't the only one provided, others were much better. The site states "We try to review every cd sent to us", and to me the site seems to be little more than a fansite, as opposed to a professional magazine or website. Or how about this site which is used in many articles yet states "Prospective writers should be aware that all contributions to the site are made on a voluntary (unpaid) basis for both tax reasons and overhead costs of running such a large website"? Perhaps I'm wrong in my interpretation of the guideline, but I see it as setting the bar slightly higher than a few reviews. My interpretation is that if three music journalists (or other reliable sources) have chosen to proactively write an article about an artist the artist is notable, whereas someone reviewing a CD they have been sent is reactive. One Night In Hackney 06:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

(outdenting) Well, I can see that I for one don't share your concerns. Maybe other editors do. I will conceed that in terms of credibility, the reference to punkbands.com was the weakest of the four sources that I offered in the debate of The Concubine article, but it was also the one which offered the most biting criticism of their album. Also, below the statement in their FAQ that you quote, "We try to review every cd sent to us." Is another that statement that reads, "If it doesn't get reviewed... sorry."

I also feel that you are quoting rapreviews.com out of context when the more relevant statement on that FAQ page is: "As you're probably aware, hundreds of rap albums are released per year. Some weeks between indie and major labels as many as 10-12 new albums can come out at one time. This is simply too much for any crew of volunteers, no matter how vigilant, to cover. We do our best to cover most of the important and a lot of the independent albums, but some things do slip through the cracks. A polite inquiry coupled with a request for coverage is the most effective. Indignant mail screaming 'y'all haters' for not covering an album will be ignored."

Editors can decide on a case by case basis whether sources like these meet their threshold for non-triviality. Some editors will dismiss these particular sites while others will see value in their criticism. I think they would just barely cut it for me (and I must admit the fact that they appear to use solely volunteer journalists counts against them). If these two are among the worst of the "thousands and thousands" then I'm not too concerned. And, to suggest that a few bad examples are grounds for dismissing reviews in general seems unreasonable. -MrFizyx 07:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with One Night In Hackney. I fail to see how an album being reviewed by a few web sites establishes notability. I would be interested in seeing how many released albums have not been reviewed by at least three web sites. If, as I suspect, almost every released album manages to get reviewed somewhere, then such reviews are not useful for establishing notability. -- Donald Albury 20:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it should be clear that if the reviewing source hasn't demonstrated sufficient notability to have a Wikipedia article (i.e., meet the requirements of WP:V, WP:N, etc.), then any review published within that source should be considered inappropriate for WP:MUSIC notability purposes. Such should fall under "trivial coverage". -- Scientizzle 04:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
If I may interject into this discussion. Doesn't WP:RS essentially cover this issue? A review on a website which anyone can post (essentially a discussion forum or blog) is not a reliable source. A review issued by a professional website (and not by a random member of the site) is reliable. Does this distinction help? -- Black Falcon 06:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Black Falcon. The standard for Wikipedia sources is WP:RS, not that the sources themselves have articles. If required all sources to have articles we would unreasonably be limiting ourselves. Anyone who thinks reviews are unrelated to notability might spend some time browsing through some sites that have made an art out of analyzing them like Metacritic.com or AcclaimedMusic.net. -MrFizyx 15:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Points well-taken. If Black Falcon's & MrFizyx's statements are taken to their logical conclusion, I should amend my "if the reviewing source hasn't demonstrated sufficient notability to have a Wikipedia article..." clause to say: "If the reviewing source hasn't demonstrated sufficient notability to justify a Wikipedia article of its own (whether that article has been written or not), as per WP:V, WP:RS & WP:N, then then any review published within that source should be considered inappropriate for WP:MUSIC notability purposes." -- Scientizzle 15:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I worry that that will raise more problems than it will solve. The notability of a source has nothing to do with its reliability. An obscure academic article on quantum mechanics may be very reliable, but certainly not notable to receive its own WP article. Conversely, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq is notable, but he is not a reliable source regarding Coalition casualties in Iraq. I agree that music reviews from unreliable sources should not be counted toward establishing the notability of bands/albums, but the reliability of sources is not contingent on (changing) WP guidelines. -- Black Falcon 18:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Firstly I wouldn't consider the two example sites I provided to be the worst examples of such sites, just they adequately demonstrated what I believe the problems with sites of that nature is. Firstly they try and review everything they are sent, so a review by such a site should not be used as an indicator of notability. Secondly they are not professional journalists, they are fans and volunteers. So perhaps a better question from me would be - should sites that cannot be shown to be professionally run with a proven editorial policy be classed as reliable sources? One Night In Hackney 19:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is something that you need to consider case by case. To put Balck Falcon's "al-Qaida" analogy into context, it may well be that the amature journalist at punkbands.com are better equipped to give an infromed commentary on a death metal band than the paid staff of a major media outlet. Their articles do, however, deserve more scrutiny. In the case where I cited them (see discussion above) their album review was written with an appropriate tone and correlated well with points made in reviews of the same album elsewhere while going into more depth on other points. If you were to read the reviews blind to their context you could not easily guess the source. They also offered a level of criticism that clearly demonstrated independence from the subject. For these reasons and others I would say yes, their reveiw is a non-trivial, reliable source for an article on The Concubine.
Keep in mind that no one of these sites alone is going to be sufficient enough to support an article. And keep in mind that sites like punkbands.com and rapreviews.com are not likely to have any overlapping coverage of the same albums and neither of them is going to cover something like celtic music. I'm convinced that there are recent notable albums with little or no reviews online (although I'd need to do a bit of research to provide good examples). -MrFizyx 14:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major Distributors equal to Major Labels

The WP:BAND says that a notable band or artist has to have released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable).

  • Change Releasing a record on Major Distributors such as Catapult and CD Baby should be equal to releasing on a Major Label. Why? Some of the indie music industry's most notable artist cannot be included in Wikipedia because of that UNFAIR and RIDICULOUS standard. Indie music is just as notable as Major music. Releasing your own music and having success should be notable. Davidcarter biowriter 00:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Perhaps you are confused. Just because an artist uses CDBaby or Catapult Digital Distribution does not mean that they cannot have a Wikipedia page. The artist's notabiliy, however, must be asserted by some other means. Seeing as these two companies offer their services to anyone with $35 and a dream, simply releasing your music through one of these companies is not an indication of notability. -MrFizyx 01:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Quite right. CDBaby is a musical version of a vanity press, which other notability guidelines reject as sufficient assertion of notability in the absence of meeting other criteria. -- Scientizzle 02:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National Charts

The definition of national chart may need amending. I think that there is acceptable notability in the Texas Music Charts. Bands like Randy Rogers, Jack Ingram, Jarrod Birmingham, and Stoney Larue have all made their impact in the Texas Country music scene. Jarrod's wiki has dissappeared and Stoney's looks on the verge of being removed. These artists travel the same Texas scene as Kevin Fowler and deserve notability for charting number 1 on the Texas Music Charts. The Texas Music Charts are compiled by hundreds of stations in Texas and Olkahoma (including Clear Channel) that report to them the number of spins-per-week an artist gets. What does everyone else think??? Lancemurphy 23:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Jack Ingram & Stoney Larue have articles, while Randy Rogers & Jarrod Birmingham do not (and their logs[3] [4] don't show a deletion). I checked out the site for the Texas Music Charts, and it covers about 80 stations. The methodology is different (they "retire" songs after 15 weeks at #1); the chart covers only Texas/Red Dirt country music. I'd have no qualms about an assertion of notability using the Texas Music Charts, but I'd guess that such a claim on its own may not prove enough without additional evidence of meeting some other criteria. The big problem I see with the Texas Music Charts wbsite: I couldn't find an archive of past charts. Maybe I'm just missing it, and/or maybe it's in print form in papers or magazines, but if it's not, then that might prohibit effective use of the chart. -- Scientizzle 17:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Chances are, if they've reached enough importance for multiple showings on a local chart (and a statewide chart really is local), they'd meet another criteria. I think national is a perfectly reasonable place to draw the line. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does this qualify as notable?

If a musician was nominated for MOBO award (Music Of Black Origin) but did not win that category, are they worthy of a Wikipedia entry? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tilefish (talk • contribs) 21:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

I've never heard of that award. What is the organization that offers it? -MrFizyx 08:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
MOBO Awards. One Night In Hackney303 08:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
If the number of nominees are quite few, I think this award could make a partial case for notability (it appears to have national/international recognition). It would be better, however, if the artist also met one or more other criteria (my impression is that in this case, they probably would). -MrFizyx 07:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
  • If they are nominated then it should be easy to find multiple non-trivial independent sources. If such sources canot be found, then they are not notable. Easy :-) Guy (Help!) 11:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes. They'd be considered "notable," but may not survive an AfD if the sources aren't there. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question re: notability

I'm going through dead end pages and came across Surprise, Surprise (Sweet Bird of Paradox), a John Lennon song from the Walls and Bridges album. The bulk of the article is some chick relating how JL wrote this song for her after their first boink. My question is, Does every song on every album by even the most notable musician get its own entry? I can see this anecdote possibly being a trivia entry on the album article, but its own article??? Thnx -killing sparrows 06:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I replaced the article with a redirect to Walls and Bridges. Lets see whether or not someone decides to reverse this. -MrFizyx 08:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thnx, is there a policy on individual song notability? -killing sparrows 08:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Your welcome. I also copied the source link on "Surprise, Surprise" into the Walls... album page, there was already mention of the story there. There has been a proposal on songs at Wikipedia:Notability (songs), but discussion on this seems to have died down a while back. -MrFizyx 15:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mixtapes

What about the notability of mixtapes? Some bands seem to produce massive amounts of these, and they don't seem to be considered as part of the official discography (and don't chart either). See e.g. So Seductive (G-Unit Radio Part 12), which was previously deleted through Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/So Seductive (G-Unit Radio Part 12), redeleted as recreated content, but is now "improved" by adding that it is made by a multi-platinum selling rap group... Is this enough to establish notability? I would say no, but more input is welcome. Fram 06:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I dunno. At first glance it looks like an archive of some DJ's weekly radio show. The All Music Guide does catalog some of these mix tapes (Parts 1-5 and 19), but doesn't review any of them and only provides the track list for one or two. I'd have to look into this some more. Does anyone write about mix tapes? -MrFizyx 06:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
There are also 6 being sold in iTunes Music. Spellcast 09:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The question lies in what the album guidelines actually say. And currently, it says albums are allowed if it's by notable artists. If these deserve deletion, I think the album guidelines should first be made more clear, otherwise it's a battle of which personal view is most common, and in a popularity contest, the majority would win despite not having an actual policy to back it up. If they get removed, then why not the mixtapes by Kanye West, The Game, and Eminem? Spellcast 07:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You are correct to a point. The album guideline does indicate notable artist -> notable albums, and G-Unit certianly appear to be notable. However, what if there are no reliable sources that even bother to list things like So Seductive as part of their body of work? Then I would say that the mix tapes don't necessarily have the same standing as studio albums and may fall under general criteria (e.g. WP:N). -MrFizyx 20:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please evaluate

Kater Fritz, The Jeopards. I am not an expert in music. BTW, is there a place I can post such notices? I don't want to go right to AfD. `'mikka 18:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Kater Fritz seems borderline at first glance, I'm sure some effort could be found for a second source, and it's probably safe to assume they've toured internationally. The Jeopards isn't looking nearly as strong. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
My standards are somewhat different than Jeff's... I would consider Kater Fritz a borderline case based on the apparent fact that they haven't released anything beyond one demo, and would consider the Jeopards a speedy-A7. I mean, no assertion of having actually done anything, and their website is on myspace for crying out loud. Anyway, a good place to post such is probably PROD (e.g. add "{{subst:prod|add your reason here}}" to the top of the article). >Radiant< 23:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, after a bit of searching I have to agree. I think it would be hard to make a case for either of those articles. I'm going to add a {{notability}} tag to each of these pages while you decide whether or not you want to prod/AfD either of them. -MrFizyx 23:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
[EC]
I'm more in line with Radiant, Kater Fritz is certainly prod-worthy, citing only a German-language source (the link appears to be broken...) and having not released an actual album. The Jeopards is totally speediable. Prod's a good way to go. -- Scientizzle 23:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Scientizzle beat me by adding the tags first. -MrFizyx 23:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
My standards reflect this guideline, nothing less. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Radiant, I do know about PROD. I happened to notice that Jeopards are being actively edited by a fan, so I doubted the PROD tag will survive. `'mikka 01:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My concern about WP:Music

My article about the singer Mark Klein (singer) is up for deletion, but I don't think I broke the rules of the guidelines. 1, because in order to prove a musician's notablity, the musician must have outside sources other than the musician's website, right. And two, Klein is a member of a legendary, notable supergroup called The Boogie Kings, who have been performing since the 1950s! Another of the guidelines is that a musician must be part of band that is notable, right? If I knew Mark wasn't notable, I wouldn't put him up here! I'm just a little upset that I thought I followed the rules and someone goes ahead to try to delete it without even checking the rules! Can someone tell me why Mr. Klein is NOT notable to them? Fanficgurl March 21 2007 11:36 (UTC)

Yet again, somebody has flagged a music-related article for Speedy Deletion where the alleged criteria for doing so (A7) do not exist in the article. The article does assert Notability. If an admin questions the Notability of the content, it should be AfD instead.--Jeandjinni 16:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
To both, improperly CSD tagged articles will likely be evaluated and not deleted by an admin if it properly asserts notability. It can never hurt, however, to place a {{hangon}} and make it abundantly clear on the talk page that there is a clear assertion. It's an imperfect system, of course, but it generally works. When it doesn't work, I'd encourage you to bring it to Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Most of all, though, this really isn't a discussion about WP:MUSIC, but belongs more on the talk page for WP:CSD. WP:MUSIC notability becomes relevant in proposed deletetion and articles for deletion, but the details and sourcing of notability aren't nearly important as the assertion of said notability when it comes to speedy tags. -- Scientizzle 16:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fan club CDs?

I was going to nominate Unplugged in Boston for deletion, but I was unsure about it because the band is notable. However, it's just a fan club CD, of which there are few (if any others) articles for on Wikipedia. Plus, it's not even on AMG, so it's not notable enough, right? Adamravenscroft 10:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd lean towards letting it stay if it can be sourced as "only available through the fanclub at this time". If it's a release endorsed by Megadeth themselves, it would probably survive an AfD... — Scientizzle 19:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] College a cappella groups

Whoever looks at list of collegiate a cappella groups will find substantial precedent for judging those according to different standards from those applied to other musicians. The reason seems to be that even if they are not notable as musicians, they are nonetheless notable for other reasons: that a cappella groups at a university are included within the particular culture of that university. In particular, at MIT there is far more interest in music among the students than at nearly all other institutions not devoted primarily to music or to the fine arts.

Given the precedent, as seen at list of collegiate a cappella groups, I think it should be mentioned on this policy page that this page is not the ONLY standard by which to judge notability of such groups. Michael Hardy 04:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charts

I think "any national music chart" needs to be better defined. It's not clear what a national music chart is. Since there are no countries (okay, maybe some communist states do) with an e.g. Ministry of Popular Music that compiles its nation's music chart, it's not clear what charts qualify. "Any" would seem to suggest that the definition is fairly broad, but maybe that means "any nation" not "any nationwide chart of a nation".

For example, MuchMusic is a nationwide Canadian music channel. Does its weekly chart qualify as "any national music chart"? Likewise, do the iTunes country-specific charts count? Do genre charts (i.e. U.S. R&B chart) count? Do non-brick-and-mortar-retail charts (e.g. online sales) count? Etc.

If not, how should determining which are the national music chart(s) be done? - 18:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KeithTyler (talk • contribs).

[edit] Minor criteria

Time after time, I see people arguing that some insignificant band is "notable" because they meet one or two of the minor eleven criteria, even though they have absolutely no independent reliable sources reporting on them, which is the central criteria for notability. I've added the sentence "Though these additional criteria make it more likely that the central criteria is met, by themselves they are not sufficient to establish notability" to the description to avoid this wikilawyering. -- THF 13:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember a single case where a band's article has been deleted through Afd, despite the band having released 2+ full-length albums on a notable label ("minor" criterion #4), as long as verifiability has not been a problem. Therefore, your change does not seem to reflect current practice and since it does not have consensus here either, I have reverted it. Prolog 14:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The section needs to be rewritten. If Criterion #4 is, by itself, sufficient, that needs to be stated. I don't think it is, unless Criteria 4 is rewritten: we have some really insignificant independent labels have one band hit it big, which makes them notable, and then that bootstraps all the non-notable bands that signed with that label to notability retroactively. That doesn't seem to make sense. -- THF 14:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General notability guideline template

Since the general notability guideline is central to most sub-pages, someone came up with the idea of creating a centralized template which will be consistent among the permutations from WP:N. Please see whether we can make this work here. The text is meant to be fairly generic, but it may make sense to add text following the template for fine tuning, or help us to make the template more applicable if it is not reflecting the consensus for notability. I certainly didn't get everything that I wanted, but I'm very happy to see the compromises that make this a fairly representive of the attitude of the project. --Kevin Murray 01:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PNC tag

Seeing how I don't even see a consensus for the non-tagged version as it currently reads, do people want the {{pnc}} tag here, or do we leave it out? I'm starting the discussion here because the proponents can't be bothered. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

If it has enough source information for a good article, but doesn't meet the "PNC", that doesn't mean we shouldn't have an article. I agree with not including it. --NE2 13:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Include, at least until someone can provide me a legitimate example of a notable musician or band who doesn't meet the PNC criteria. Cf. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Lind, where a handful of fanboys were able to block a deletion of someone who can't even land a contract and his self-published record because of the WP:MUSIC ambiguities. -- THF 13:25, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Mark Lind seems to make a good example, actually. I'd say a number of the bands in the Elephant Six Collective may, as well. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Elephant Six satisfies PNC: non-trivial stories by the Boston Globe and Tucson Weekly. I don't see why the non-PNC bands in Elephant Six can't simply be listed in the Elephant Six article. -- THF 16:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Include I don't see the problem here. It's a nutshell version of the guideline, it's what most AfDs rely upon, and it's flexible enough: "A notable topic should be the subject..." (rather than "must"). — Scientizzle 16:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Rather than opposing a template which brings continuity to the various sections of the notability infrastructure, why not help to develop language at the template which more clearly relfects the consensus. How can we make the template better? --Kevin Murray 16:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This is a debate for WP:N and perhaps Template:pnc. I don't see anything in WP:N that indicates that music articles don't need to meet the WP:N criteria. -- THF 17:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
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