Talk:Northwestern University Wildcat Marching Band

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[edit] Start of NUMB discussion

Hi folks, let's add some more data on the Band. :-) Could someone add the words to the Alma Mater? Also, should we start a section on "our" versions of "their" fight songs?

P&G

VentrueSabre 04:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

We should be careful not to edge into what is termed "fancruft". We are already pushing the limits of acceptability here on wikipedia. Words to the Alma mater would be good, though. :) johnpseudo 05:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


  • Lyrics to the Northwestern Alma Mater would be better suited to a separate article.. along with its history, etc. I'd suggest that an article on Anti-fight songs would also be more appropriate than putting material of that type in the main NUMB article... and it would be more acceptable as a generic topic.. "your" versions would probably be considered "Original Research".. and might be classified as such even as a separate article. -- Upholder 05:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


Hi, what was proposed by Upholder wrt an original article on Anti-fight songs sounds good. I'll see if I can find and/or remember any of the ones from the late '70s/early '80s. P&G! PS: Interestingly enough, there is plenty of anthropological/historical precident for such parodies. For example, certain Native tribes would perform parodies of the war dances of their enemies as a way of mocking and breaking the power of their enemies. VentrueSabre 02:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe what Upholder said was that, even if the anti-fight songs were in a separate article they would classify as Original Research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. johnpseudo 03:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grinder vs. Grynder

I think this whole spelling nonsense should just be removed. However it's spelled, it's truly inconsequential. And the reason this is verging on an argument is because virtually all of the content here is original research. johnpseudo 03:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


  • I politely disagree. The change in spelling reflects changes in the culture (or "the times" as quoted in the article). As a former Spirit Leader I find it interesting to see how things have changed since I served. Just to make sure there is no misinterpretation - I consider the current spelling (Grynder) to be perfectly valid. And I'm not arguing - I'm merely pointing out how things used to be. A substantial part of the article covers history. No disrespect of the current Spirit Team (or SpiriTeam :-) ) was meant. Peace VentrueSabre 11:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Hi - I noticed that Grynder was changed back to Grinder in the article. If that was done on my account, please don't. As I note above, when I was Spirit Leader (early '80s) my compatriot was known as the Grinder. If Grynder is the accepted spelling now, then by all means please use it - though you may wish to make reference to the old spelling from a historical point of view. I've no wish to stand in the way of evolution. Things change across time, and rightly so. Thanks! Peace --VentrueSabre 00:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Although I disagree with spelling the "Grinder" with a y, I'm just trying to resolve the dispute by using sources. It is against Wikipedia policy to include anything without verifiable sources. In this article, we include plenty of information without sources, but with any disputed change, we still have to follow policy. johnpseudo 02:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

  • As the IP users are apparently not willing to engage in discussion and the edits are starting to border on vandalism, I have requested that the NUMB page be semi-protected -- Upholder 03:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, I didn't realize this discussion page was in existence. I'm one of the people who keeps changing it back to "grynder" with a "y". I am a current band member, and we spell grynder with a "y"; in fact, if you talk to recent or the current grynders, they would insist that these days, that is the only appropriate spelling. I realize that times change, but as a current member I would suggest that I probably know best (though we could certianly reference the historical spelling!). It is spelled with a "y"; the sources that you have cited are out of date and/or incorrect. Thank you. - 25 December, 11:11 pm central.
  • If it is indeed spelled grynder today, you need to provide citations that show that to be the case. The standard on Wikipedia is verifiability.. please see WP:V. The grinder spelling has citations and as such must be the spelling used until citations showing otherwise are given. Please note that I am not now nor have I ever been associated with the NUMB, I was a member of the Marching Illini so I have no preconcieved notions on this issue. -- Upholder 05:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem with this issue is that the word "Grinder" is not usually written down. Most of the time the Spirit Leader and Grinder are referred to collectively as the SpiriTeam (including the NUMB handbook). Even during a Spirit Session we don't see the term "Grinder" written down, and when speaking, the Grinder is usually referred to as part of the SpiriTeam (excepting the introductions at the pre-game fire up concert). We do see "Grinder" in written form on Spirit Sheets, however. I reviewed nearly all of the Spirit Sheets from 2002-2005 and here's what I found. 2002 (Ryan Schneider): No mention of "grynder" or "grynd" but three sheets reference a "grind". I think it's safe to extrapolate that to mean "grinder". 2003 (Jenny Tison): No mentions of "grynder", five sheets mention "grinder" (including "get ready for band camp" sheet where she introduces herself as "grinder"). 2004 (Jenny Tison): No mentions of "grynder", seven sheets mention "grinder". 2005 (Tim Peterson): Three sheets mention "grynder", five sheets mention "grinder". While I don't have the 2006 Spirit Sheets, I find it hard to believe that the official and accepted spelling has changed to "grynder" in the past year. Note: dates of the referenced Spirit Sheets are available if requested. -- Mlehrer 07:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm also a student currently in NUMB. Just so you know, every single spirit sheet from the

2006 season spells the word with a "y"; however spirit sheets are not (and should NOT be) public record. The two articles that are referenced are out of date. The accepted spelling has changed; perhaps we should spell it with a "y" as is currently done, however note that historically (ie in the last year) it has changed from being spelled with an "i" to being spelled with a "y". I think part of the cool thing about being in NUMB is being able to track and chroncicle these changes. Who knows? Maybe a decade form now, they'll spell it with an "i" again...

  • Ok, those articles are out of date. If you're able to find any references that spell it with a 'y', we'll change it. Otherwise, follow wikipedia policy. johnpseudo 03:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Guys...it's the spelling of a position in a college marching band. Who really cares except for the current members? And if EVERY SINGLE TIDBIT of information like this needs a source (ie we need to verify the spelling of every word that isn't in the dictionary), then there are a hell of a lot of references missing. There is no current, up-to-date reference for this because spirit sheets probably won't do, and the position (as mentioned above) is not written about often. Talk to Tim Peterseon or Lauren Miller, the most recent and current grynders. They can verify the spelling. Other than that, we're out of references. And we can't leave it spelled with an "i" because that's incorrect and also not supported by referential evidence, except that which is obviously out of date.

So...if there is no evidence for either side...what's wikipedia policy then? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.24.71.254 (talk • contribs) 13:07, December 27, 2006 (UTC)

  • In that case, it's probably Original Research (see WP:OR) and should be removed entirely. The standard for inclusion is Verifiability. If there's no references, it should be removed. -- Upholder 19:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
...which I mentioned at the top of this talk page on December 3rd. 99% of this article is original research and should probably be removed, but if nobody is interested in going through and removing it or finding citations, it will remain as is. I disagree that the web sites I cited are "outviously out of date". In the absence of any better references, I think they support leaving the spelling as "Grinder". It's good to have verifiability in everything we can, and in this particular case, we can. johnpseudo 21:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Spirit Leader hat and Grinder/Grynder hat

Hi, I have a question about the descriptions of the Spirit Leader and Grinder/Grynder hats. Rather than edit the article, I thought I'd bring this up in the Talk section.

When I was Spirit Leader in the early '80s, my hat was a black felt cap "festooned" with various buttons. It was bought at the "first" Rose Bowl appearance by NU. It sounds like the description of the current Grinder's hat. And conversely, the Grinder who served with me had an olive drab aviator soft helmet. Given the current writeup, it sounds like the hats for the offices changed at some point (mid '90s perhaps?).

Any comments?

Thanks! --VentrueSabre 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

- I don't know when they switched (or if they're the same hats), but today it is the grynder's hat that is festooned with buttons (like a floppy top hat) and the aviator-style hat belongs to the spirit leader.  :)

--Thank you for the info. It does sound like the hats have switched since I had the honor of being the Spirit Leader. I will try to find photos of the hat when I wore it and provide it as reference for anyone who is interested. Best wishes --VentrueSabre 03:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

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