Talk:Northern League (Italy)

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Where does the 1989 date come from? I believe the Lombard League dates from 1984, and the Northern League as such from 1991. In any case, this article could use a lot of work, preferably by someone who knows a lot more about this than I do. -- Jmabel 07:15, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

May I suggest that the two of you who are busily edit-warring by moving this article back and forth from one name to another each state your case here? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:25, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Lega Nord = neo-fascists!

it is important that you guys write it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.162.17.219 (talk • contribs) 24 Jan 2006.

Lega Nord is not neo-fascists !!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.58.13.251 (talk • contribs) 14 Aug 2006.
The Lega is seccecionist, or federalist but not Neo-Fascist. They have similar anti-immigration policies to some of the far right parties, but they are not one of them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.165.197.109 (talk • contribs) 25 Jul 2006.
"They have similar anti-immigration policies to some of the far right parties". I'd say identical, or way more extremist... --Stefano 21:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
...or maybe more similar to the Dutch liberal VVD! LN do not oppose legal immigration, and they want to curb only illegal immigration. This has nothing to do with far right parties. --Checco 09:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Padania

There seems to be a dispute going over whether this should begin, 'The Northern League (Italian: Lega Nord) is an Italian political party that advocates autonomy for a part of Northern Italy that they call "Padania",' or 'for a part of Northern Italy called "Padania".' I say "...that they call "Padania", and I say that the distinction is important.

Here are two recent edit comments:

Jmabel: rv again. If you have a justification for this change, please explain it on the talk page. Otherwise, I'm presuming partisan propaganda or vandalism.

Dur [s/that they call/called] -> "Padania" existed as a term way before Lega Nord was even founded!

While the term "Padania" predates the Northern League, their use of it does not. "Padania" was a geographer's term (and, to the best of my knowledge, never before Bossi a political one) for the Po Valley. Bossi and the League's "Padania" is much larger, basically embracing most economically strong regions of Italy. See Flags of the World's Padania page for a rather good discussion of this. In particular (from that page):

'Padus' is the Latin name of the Po river. Geographically the northern part of Italy is called 'Val Padana' (Padana Valley) and 'padano' is the adjective related to it, e.g. 'grana padano' is a kind of cheese producted in Val Padana. 'Padania' is derived from 'padano' and should mean 'the country of Padans'. The secessionist movement claims that Padania also includes many regions (Toscana, Romagna, Liguria and Sud Tirolo) which are *not* parts of Val Padana; they call 'Padania' all the northern and northern-centre regions, i.e. the "richest" part of Italy. The real cause of the secessionists is not cultural or ethnic but economic: to separate the richer North from the poorer South. -- Giuseppe Bottasini, 20 September 1996
The word "Padania" has been common in geography and social studies from the 60's to describe the area around the Po river. Note that it usually did not comprehend the Veneto region and all Northern-Eastern Part of Italy, whereas Leghisti usually think Veneto belongs to Padania (and they referred sometimes to Venice as "Padania Capital city").
From a linguistic point of view, the regions of Northern Italy (from Piedmont to Romagna, excluding Trentino, Veneto and Friuli) belong to the Gallo-Italic dialect group, which could be considered for some aspects more similar to French than to Tuscan or other Southern-Central Italian dialects. This, of course, does not imply that a "Gallo-Italic" or "Padanian" nation undoubtedly exists: some linguists think that every region dialect should be considered a different "language" (due to mutual unitelligibility and phonetic and lexical peculiarities) so there should be at least five "Gallo-Italic languages" (or probably seven) and so maybe five" (or seven) "potential nations"... -- Paolo Montanelli, 4 July 2003

I don't want an edit war here, but I do want a discussion. Perhaps this needs more than a single phrase in this article, but I think that the details belong in the Padania article, not here. Nonetheless, referring here to the area for which the Northern League advocates secession (as against merely the Po Valley) as "Padania", rather than saying that the League calls it by that name, is to adopt a political POV, whether intentionally or not.

I won't revert again right now, but I reserve the right to do so. I'll leave at least 24 hours for a response. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:20, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

My point is:

1) At worst saying "that they call Padania" sounds like they invented the term to me... Sounds like some kind of "Neverland", which is not the case here. At best it sounds as if Lega Nord-ers are the only ones using "Padania" as a term for Northern Italy, instead:

2) as a matter of fact today "Padania" is a term commonly used (amongst others of course) to define Northern Italy as a whole and not only by Lega Nord supporters. Just to mention a few examples: it has been used by Nobel prize winner Dario Fo, it is regularly used by influential historical publications such as "Medioevo" (Middle Ages) or geopolitics publications such as "Limes", which even published a monograph entitled "L'Italia tra Europa e Padania" (Italy between Europe and Padania). For some years the Italian branch of the Hyde Park Group had been publishing a review on society, environment, economy and traditions entitled "Padania". The term is commonly used today by newspapers and shows up in the title of several books by publishing houses such as SugarCo and Larus. In 1992 the prestigious Agnelli Foundation even published a notorious survey entitled "La Padania, una regione italiana in Europa" (Padania, an Italian region in Europe).

So "they" are not the only ones who use the term Padania. -- Dur

I'm going to try a more verbose wording that I hope will be mutually acceptable; if you disagree, we'll go on from there. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:46, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

"Some have claimed…" is not exactly a citation, especially for what practically amounts to a claim of criminal conspiracy. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:19, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible POV issue

I removed the {{NPOV}} tag, since there is no note here about any POV issue. If you have an issue, please explain it here and restore the tag. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:06, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Belonging to fascist article collection?

I don't like the leghisti, but I am not sure they can be defined fascists. They would surely reject this, whereas much of their ideology stinks the same shit. I would rather call them xenophobic and populistic, but fascist... that's a bit of a stretch. They apparently "wipe their asses" (as Umberto Bossi once worded it) with the Flag of Italy. See the parties in Alternativa Sociale coalition for "properly" fascist parties. --Orzetto 21:14, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

 WikiProject Fascism wants to know if the person or group described in this article can be reasonably described as fascist. WikiProject Fascism defines an entity which has not come to power as "fascist" if it fulfills six of the following criteria:
  1. exalting the nation, (and in some cases the race, culture, or religion) above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.
  2. stressing loyalty to a single leader.
  3. advocating violence or using modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.
  4. advocating severe economic and social regimentation.
  5. advocating syndicalist corporatism.
  6. advocating totalitarian systems.
  7. declaring itself or holding itself out to be to be a fascist, national socialist, falangist, etc. movement.

Please comment on this entity's status here or leave commentary on the project's talk page.


Which of these do you think they fill? Stlemur 22:09, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't really see much beyond the first two. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:06, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
1)If the nation is Padania, yes; 2) definitely yes; 3) yes for advocating violence (well, they say they want to shoot immigrants but they say they are "gandhians"), not the rest; 4) definitely not; 5) don't think so; 6) No; 7) Definitely not.
So I think they do not qualify. --Orzetto 16:25, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Inclined to agree. Thanks. Stlemur 22:54, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I want to say that the League doesn't support or advocate violence. What Orzetto says is totally untrue, instead it is the League itself which has been the victim of many violent acts from leftish extremists. Checco 09:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humanitarian Padanian Association

I find the following recently added paragraph incoherent to the point of incomprehensibility. If someone understands it and can rewrite it in decent English, go for it; if no one has done this within 24 hours, I will probably just remove it.

The Northern League promotes, through its humanitarian association (Associazione Umanitaria Padana Onlus), the social and economic participations of international solidarity in the respect of the cultures, local traditions and identities. The campaigns are carried out in particular way in the underdeveloped nations or in the countries hit from war events and natural catastrophes.

-- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I've done my best to fix this, based on the cited reference. Its location in the article remains close to random, someone might want to work out where it would better fit in. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
(Sorry first for changing the title of the section) I suspect this organization is a bit of a stunt, I really cannot imagine this sort of people working for the same people the next day they suggest shooting at. I am not sure of the extent of their activities, and whether they are sizeable and involve a significant number of supporters. --Orzetto 15:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lega Nord not fascist

Lega Nord is not a fascist party and does not hold a fascist ideology. In 1994, before the party joined the Liberty Pole coalition, Bossi was reluctant about the perspective to join the coalition because Alleanza Nazionale (National Allience), the main party derived from fascism, was inside that coalition. For what the shooting to immigrants is concerned, the party proposed to shoot at immigrants in coming boat, which is a common phenomenon in other south European countries, and not directly at immigrants as such. Therefore there is no connection between that immigration policy and fascism and surely, as someone wrongly said before, the Lega nord party is not the same "shit" as fascism and nor it smells like it. Such a statement is inapropriate and whoever wrote it should get his or her information right. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.56.55.67 (talk • contribs) 4 Nov 2005.

Fine. I said they were not fascist myself. As far as fascist go nowadays in Italy, league supporters scare me even more. As for Bossi's reluctance, he entered the government anyway and is still allied with "the fascists", and in next elections probably even with Alternativa Sociale hardliners. I'm not sure where you get your facts, as I am not aware of any country (in southern Europe or anywhere else) shelling at disabled boats full of civilians (it would be a crime in wartime, let alone in peacetime). --Orzetto 15:20, 7 December 2005 (UT

Response to Orzetto. We don't need to go to far back in time to see a classic examples of the usage of force to stop illegal immigrants to enter a country. Last month Mr. Zapatero sent the army with orders to shoot every northern African who attemped to enter Spain territory. I also don't understand how you are scared by the league supporters who are made up mainly by middle aged people which most extreme action is to insult the Itlian flag. There are supporters of other political/social movement, mainly in the opposite side of the political spectrum, which are and have been far more dangerous ans undemocratic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.11.204.51 (talk • contribs) 7 Dec 2005.

I cut the following "However, many dispute the fascist label, as this would imply a link with Rome and their support of a unified Italian state, which instead is something the league wishes to destroy." Uncited (who are the "many"?). And not being pan-Italianist doesn't seem to me to be any argument against "fascist" as that word is used today. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outrageously biased article

I believe an encyclopedia article should strive for fairness and balance.

Phrases like "The Lega Nord's successes began roughly when large numbers of dark-skinned immigrants began to be spotted in northern italian cities." are plain non-sense. First off, southerners emigration to the north happened at least 10 years earlier than the late 80s/early 90s. Second, I would say it is quite difficult to spot a southern italian by the color of their skin when compared to that of a northern italian. Northern italy is not like California!

The accusation of racism/fascism, coupled with a very superficial analysis of the party's electoral programs throughout the years, also reveal an unacceptable bias and prejudice in this article directed against the Northern League. I would convene that much of the initial success of the NL was due to the rejection by northerners (as well as the majority of southerners who emigrated) of a subculture very much pervasive in certain regions of the south of italy, perhaps the same subculture from which 'mafioso' organized crime arised. However, this is far from being racism. For example, reading from one of the very early electoral programs published by the NL when it was still called Lombard League, a pillar of the early NL electoral program was to recognize as "residents" of a region (and as such eligible for precedence in the assignment of some welfare rights, such as housing) EVERYBODY who lived in that region for at least 5 years (regardless of their place of birth or "the darker color of their skin"). These included the 95% of so called "terroni" immigrants against whom the NL "racism" was supposedly directed against.

Anyhow, I just wanted to give my opinion on this very opinionated article :)

Dado

I would like to remember that Umberto Bossi is married with Manuela Marrone, whose father is of Sicilian origin, and that one MP, Matteo Brigandì, is born in Messina, Sicily... Checco 09:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biased notes and references

Just wanted to point out that links in the "Notes and referemces" section might be extremely biased, since "la Repubblica" is a left-oriented newspaper, far from being unbiased. "il Manifesto" is an extreme-left oriented newspaper. Besides, Marco Travaglio writes for both "la Repubblica" and "l'Unità", which is the official newspaper of Italian post-communist party DS. "la Padania", instead, is the official organ of Lega Nord.

Talking about NPOV, I'm afraid I have to say these references are worth less than nothing.

La Repubblica is the main newspaper in Italy and claiming it is "extremely biased" is a bit of a stretch. There is only one reference to a (reprinted) article of Il Manifesto and none from L'Unità. Travaglio's collection of insults is only that—a collection, without a word by him; Travaglio is not even a left-winger himself. I wonder what would be the specific unreliability in the cited articles, anyway. It seems to me that you are trying to spread FUD.
  • I would like to remember to the friend above that:
1) it is not the main newspaper in Italy, being only the second after the Corriere della Sera;
2) it is a left-oriented newspaper which supports directly the centre-left coalition (it is part of the editorial group of Carlo De Benedetti, the most important supporter and fund-raiser to Mr. Prodi's coalition). Checco 09:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
If the quotations are wrong or incomplete, feel free to add new references. The fact that you do not like a particular newspaper, or that it has some political leanings, is pointless as long as the information provided is correct. Please elaborate more about what you assess as allegedly incorrect or unreliable in the current quotations. Stating that "the source might be biased" is not enough. FrancescoMazzucotelli 06:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV? Definitely not.

This aticle is almost totally partisan and not objective at all. The League is not the party that is described here... Checco 09:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Be bold and edit then. And let's see if you can provide something more objective. FrancescoMazzucotelli 06:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion on NPOV and unverified information

I think that the anonymous user that marked this article "under NPOV check" and "not verified in some parts" should introduce his objections in this page. I must say that I tend to agree.

The article is badly written, with an obvious political bias against the italian political party that is described. Unfortunately the italian political propaganda (from all sides) is low level, dishonest, with no respect for truth and fairness. And these malpractices tend to flood Wikipedia entries.

I will now write a few comments on the article text.

"The Northern League (Italian: Lega Nord) is an Italian political party which advocates autonomy for that part of Northern Italy which they call Padania."

There is political bias in the above, in my opinion. The view of the party should be presented in a neutral way, with support and criticism statements equally distributed. Furthermore, an historical introduction would better introduce the non-Italian reader. I propose:

"The Northern League (Italian: Lega Nord) is an Italian political party, founded in year xxxx as a federation of a number of regional Italian parties (list), which were either founded or increased their electoral consensus in the 1980 decade, on the basis of a political program revolving around requests for larger regional autonomy with respect to the central government. The Lega Nord federative party brought forward since then requests for a larger autonomy of the area encompassing the involved regions, which corresponds to Northern Italy, and which they named Padania, using a (since then) relatively seldom used term that denominates the Po river basin."

The section titled "Ideology" should be changed to "Political program". "Ideology" is better suited for old Fascist and Communist parties in my opinion, and is not really applicable to the much more down to earth NL political program.

The sections/headings on "Reasons for the Initial Success", "Federalism or Secession", "Accusations of Racism" are badly chosen and don't deserve the evidence they are given. The relevant text would be better grouped under neutral titles like: "political program", and more weight should be given to facts (polls, NL relations with other european parties) rather that to political propaganda in Italian newspapers.

The titles "Calderoli's T-shirt" and "non democratic means" don't deserve the emphasis they have.

The notes and references with few exceptions are a ridicolous collection of low quality Italian newpaper articles. For instance, regarding intolerance (often mispelled as racism in propaganda) of NL supporters, there is an essay based on extensive polls published by the renown pollster (and university professor) R.Mannheimer which would deserve a citation, while the newspaper crap should be dumped.

I hope to have some time to devote to this article, unfortunately quite some work is needed in my opinion. Nozdreff 07:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I have noted the modifications by Jmabel: compliments for the good work! Just a comment: I consider inappropriate the fragment --relatively obscure geographers' designation--. Why obscure? The gross meaning of Padania has always been clear. And I would not qualify it as "geographers' designation". I would propose: "a sparingly used geographic term". Nozdreff 10:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. "Obscure" was not in terms of being of unclear meaning, but in the sense of not being known to many people. I suppose there was an ambiguity. - Jmabel | Talk 03:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The t-shirt

The following was removed without comment:

[Begin removed]

Calderoli's T-shirt
Roberto Calderoli with his Mohammad T-shirt
Roberto Calderoli with his Mohammad T-shirt

In February 2006, great controversy surrounded the role of the League's Minister for Institutional Reforms, Roberto Calderoli. In the wake of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, vociferously defending the notion of freedom of press, Calderoli decided to defy the aggressive posture of anti-Danish Islamic fundamentalist groups by repeatedly wearing a T-shirt reproducing the controversial cartoons. Calderoli's uncompromising behaviour led to more international tension: protesting against his stance, and seeing it as part of official policy of the Italian government, Islamist rioters took to the streets of Bengasi, Libya, and assaulted the Italian consulate. Eleven people were killed by Libyan riot police attempting to fend off the assault. Calderoli, considered responsible for inflaming the tension, was forced to resign from Silvio Berlusconi's government. [End removed]

Seems notable to me. - Jmabel | Talk 06:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Lacking response, I am restoring. Citation would improve this enormously, though. - Jmabel | Talk 19:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it could be better to put it in the article dedicated to Roberto Calderoli. Checco 19:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
This fact is something specific about Calderoli, so there is no reson for maintaining this paragraph in this page. In Roberto Calderoli, everyone can find everything he wants about the fact of the T-shirt, so I will remove again what Jmabel has restored 20 minutes ago. Checco 19:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EU Parliament grouping

The article says that ‘In the European Parliament, its MEPs are part of the grouping Independence and Democracy’. I think this is incorrect and, indeed, that the article used to say that the Lega’s MEPs were expelled from Independence and Democracy last March or April. Indeed there is still an (orphaned) footnote about it. These two links suggest that this is the case:

You are right. --Checco 16:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of my last edit

Obvoiusly I put a wrong summary, sorry! --Checco 14:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

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