Talk:North

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents

[edit] Sitting on Top of the World

removed the following because there is no "top" to the world; we only feel North is "up" because of maps... circular argument.

because the North Pole is at the top of the world, as far north as you can get

I wrote the following for the article, but the second 'graph feels too conjectural to include.

The visible rotation of the night sky about the visible celestial pole provides a vivid metaphor of that direction corresponding to up. Thus the choice of the direction corresponding to its own hemisphere is, prior to world-wide communication, anything but an arbitrary one. On the contrary, it is of interest that Chinese culture ever considered south as the proper top end for maps.
As a speculative conjecture, it may be that this reflects the persistent threat from the tough nomadic peoples to the north of China, against whom the Great Wall was built, staffed, and maintained: the idea of the north being fundamental to the nature of things may have been unconsciously too uncomfortable, or consciously deemed a threat to public confidence in Chinese independence or hegemony. (If so, this raises the question of the role of these threats in forming the concepts of China as a Middle Kingdom closer to Heaven than any other, and of the mandate of Heaven.

If anyone has heard this theory anywhere else, i'd be pleased to hear about it. --Jerzy 01:03, 2003 Oct 24 (UTC)

[edit] Previous Edit

(for convenience of reference, here is the state of the article as of 2003 October 22, Wed. midday UTC:)

eo:Nordo ja:北 nl:Noord (windstreek)


North is one of the primary directions of the compass. It is the distance to the left of a person facing east. North is traditionally at the top of modern western maps. The North Pole is the northernmost point on the planet. Magnetic North is not quite the same place as the actual North Pole but it is close.

See also: "The North" (that term is often used to refer to the wealthy & powerful "North" as opposed to the poorer "South")

--Jerzy 19:56, 2003 Oct 22 (UTC)

[edit] 2003-October Major Rewrite

I'm in the process of an edit that will pretty much obliterate the former main paragraph, but to say that obscures its value to me as a guide to what to include and some angles of approach. Thank you to the previous editors.

I don't assume i've gotten it all well stated yet, and i solicit criticism -- especially when i've chosen a way of stating something that makes it sound obviously false to you. --Jerzy 19:56, 2003 Oct 22 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

_ _ I've removed

...and perhaps to the Greek word nerteros, meaning "lower, nether, or infernal." North would be considered lower as it is to the left when one faces the rising sun

as implausible (in the absence of supporting refs) in light of Greek and Germanic languages being on separate branches with relatively little contact, and of a conflicting (tho similar) well-sourced account.
_ _ IMO it is probably either orig res or a garbled recollection of some statement like "the same PIE root can be seen in neteros".
_ _ My source is the Amer Her Dict, including the PIE vocabulary section at the end of most of the full-size editions.
--Jerzy·t 16:49, 2005 July 27 (UTC)

[edit] possible Etymology

I aplogise if this is the wrong place to put this, but I feel the focus on Left in the etymology of North is wrong, as it is based on an East-looking (sunrise) mindset. I agree with North from IE 'ner' = "under" and have found admittedly only one source to back this up, it also contains references to words which apparently share the same root and contain or explicitly mean left, however these are not north european.
My understanding of the root of North is based on sun position and assumes the dominance of the sun in early peoples lives and therefore perceived orientation. As your shadow is cast behind (and below) you in a roughly northerly direction at any time and due-north at noon and bearing in mind South comes form OE 'suth' = "sun-ward", I believe (and in all fairness I can't put it more strongly than that currently) that the meaning of North comes more from 'under' (when compared with the sun). I also believe this ties in with the early Scandinavian concept of the world they lived in, sharing a common orientation with the Chinese.
If I can come up with something more concrete I'll post it here.
A.Copland 81.77.180.65 02:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

This page is the right place. IMO it makes a lot of difference what the one source is.
It would be helpful to name the source, helping facilite the enlistment of more eyes to try out avenues to finding more and/or more credible sources.
Jerzy·t 07:16, 2005 August 1 (UTC)
My source mentioned above was "ORIGINS, a short etymological dictionary of modern english" by Eric Partridge, 1978.
North as below in "ORIGINS" is sourced from, J.B. Hofmann(Etymologisches Worterbuch des Griechischen, 1950). I am not very good at german so going to the source is not an option for me. I have as yet, no further evidence.
A.Copland 81.76.40.192 02:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] rephrasing disambig

The previous disambiguation notice phrasing appeared too restrictive in my view. This article is not so long yet, that for instance metaphorical uses of the direction North wouldn't be best at home in this article. -- Cimon avaro; on a pogostick. 21:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] boreocentrism

This article contains the word 'boreocentrism' but I was unable to find a dictionary definition of it in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary, the Merriam Webster, or Google. Although I understand its meaning because of its Greek root and my knowledge of Greek, I think that we should replace/fix this word to help people who don't know Greek understand what is being said. NerdyNSK 18:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "Retronyms"

I find the use of this term confusing in the definition of "magnetic north" in the definitions section. Most people don't know what it means and I don't think it has a place in a useful definition of the term "magnetic north." If there's any explanation in the link that accompanies it, I couldn't find it on a cursory skimming. Maybe just remove everything in the parentheses? Erickroh 16:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../n/o/r/Talk%7ENorth_a957.html"